My definition of language is, I think, pretty standard with linguists and philosophers. The stuff about universal translation, also. When I talk about fields in which I'm not an expert, I try to stay close to the experts.

Poetry is not just language, that is why it is difficult to translate. The "sense" of poetry (the part that is in language) can usually be translated quite precisely. That is what a "literal" translation is. The music and imagery, not so easily.

Language is of course far from the only means of communication. A wordless cry of pain or joy communicates perfectly without an iota of reference, without being a symbol, without referring to anything.

When we speak to each other in street, or even online, we use not only language but gesture, tone of voice, body language, context. All of these are not "language" in the technical sense, but they are part of speech in the common sense.

However, admitting all this, I think it is clear that music is not a language and not language. It does not contain symbols that unambiguously refer to objects and that can express anything any other language can express. You cannot convey a mathematical proof in music -- even though music is the most mathematically complex and elaborated of the arts.

Of course although I deny that music is a language, I affirm that it communicates, although what it communicates cannot be communicated with language.

Regards,
Mike



-----Original Message-----
>From: "\\js" 
>Sent: Feb 13, 2006 3:20 PM
>To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk, Michael Gogins 
>Subject: Re: [Csnd] Algorithmic composition - the simplest model
>
>hi
>
>thank you for your evocative comments. they have made me think some,
>and i have tried to put my thoughts into words in the hope that they
>will further this discussion.
>
>i'm not sure i agree with you; but maybe i just haven't done my
>homework. what about arabic numbers [hopefully gw bush can't
>understand their arabic lineage or else mathematicians will be sent to
>gitmo ...], would you consider them a language? they seem to fit
>better your definition. or maybe it's not even your definition. [maybe
>it is]
>
>and do all languages need to fit the same mold? can we think of
>language as a huge set, in which there are many smaller subsets that
>don't all exhibit the same properties, but are all contained within
>the larger 'language' grouping?
>
>music does communicate. just read plato on the characteristics of the
>modes, or think about the bible belt preachers burning elvis records.
>there was *something* being communicted by those tones.
>
>also, in a special formation you could use music tones as a code [j =
>440 ...], but that's not really what you're talking about here.
>
>On 2/13/06, Michael Gogins  wrote:
>> Music is not a language because it does not convey propositions and, in fact,
>> has limited if any symbolic content.
>
>is this your formulation?
>
>> Languages are universal, each can be translated into all others, any concept
>> can be communicated in any language.
>
>i'm not so sure about that. i've been reading a lot of buddhism
>lately, and most of it is in translation. if any concept can be
>translated into any language, how come there are so many widely
>varying translations of the same text.
>
>and, while i freely admit i cannot speak or read any chinese, i have
>spent some time reading the taoteching. each translation i have read
>spends a great deal of time talking about how to translate 'tao'. and
>they don't all agree.
>
>so i don't think translation is as easy as you make it out to be.
>
>> Poetry has words and in fact is language, but it also has something else that
>> non-poetic language does not have. That something else, I think, is music.
>
>hmm ...
>
>poetry and music are related to be sure, but it's mostly regarding
>rhythm [although also the sequence of phonemes can also be 'musical'].
>
>> In other words poetry is language that is also music. I think this begins to get
>> at the difference between music and language.
>
>i think poetry is language organized in verses instead of sentences.
>music may or may not be relelvant here. what about conrete poetry? how
>is this musical? [like earle brown scores?]
>
>--
>\js  [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ]