I don't disagree that the listeners will feel "something". I strongly  
disagree that what the composer intended will be communicated.

The 6th symphony is a programmatic piece. Quoting from http://w3.rz- 
berlin.mpg.de/cmp/beethoven_sym6.html

The titles of each of the Pastoral Symphony's five movements give a  
clear picture of what the composer had in mind. The first, "Awakening  
of Cheerful Feelings on Arriving in the Country," sets the idyllic  
mood which continues throughout the piece. A sort of skipping rhythm  
is heard throughout this movement, as if the composer were imagining  
village children at play. The second movement is "Scene by the  
Brook," in this case, a brook frequented by quails, cuckoos, and  
nightingales, whose voices are evoked by the woodwinds. In the third  
movement, Beethoven turns to human inspiration, for "Merry Gathering  
of the Country Folk," a portrayal of a village dance. Years later, a  
friend of the composer's claimed that it was meant to depict a  
village band, valiantly playing through a haze of alcohol. Like all  
merry-making, this party too comes to an end, in this case, with a  
change in the weather, as the fourth movement, "Thunderstorm,"  
arrives. The storm rages away throughout the orchestra, then  
gradually subsides with the beginning of the fifth movement,  
"Shepherd's Song --- Happy, Thankful Feelings after the Storm." The  
last three movements are played without pause, and the entire  
symphony ends on a tranquil note. Perhaps it's dusk in Heiligenstadt,  
and Beethoven, enjoying a rare bit of peace of mind, is resting from  
his labors.

On Feb 13, 2006, at 2:05 PM, apalomba@austin.rr.com wrote:

> I disagree, I would not expect a brother
> in the hood to understand the structure of an
> indian raga. He is coming from a different
> cultural back ground. But that certainly does not
> mean that he would not feel something. Like
> wise, a person who is listening to Beethoven's
> 9th for the first time could very well feel
> something as well. It is a bit presumptuous of you
> to assume that they would not. I can listen to
> Kanye West song and feel the emotive thoughts
> encoded in that language and I am not from the
> hood. Obviously the more familiar you are with a
> form of music, the emotive content you may glean
> from.
>
> Incidentally, what is the meaning of Beethoven's 9th
> symphony you speak of? Do you really know what Beethoven's
> intent was? Was his intent really to make you think, or
> was it to make you feel. I think the language of music is
> not really about thinking, it is about feeling.
>
>
>
>
> Anthony
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Erik Spjut 
> Date: Monday, February 13, 2006 3:33 pm
> Subject: Re: [Csnd] Algorithmic composition - the simplest model
>
>> I'm going to agree with Michael and Disagree with Anthony on this  
>> one.
>>
>> Music is not anywhere near a universal language. Try playing some
>> microtonal mid-eastern music for a brother from the 'hood or a
>> frat
>> boy and see how well it's understood.
>>
>> If we take music that is seriously intended to convey a particular
>>
>> meaning and don't include the descriptive text it still doesn't
>> work.
>> Just play Beethoven's 6th symphony or Grofé's Grand Canyon Suite
>> to a
>> group of people who've never heard it before (pathetically easy to
>>
>> find these days) and ask them to say what it means. You might find
>>
>> one or two who will mention the composer's actual intent, but the
>> majority will describe something else. Once your are told (in
>> words)
>> what it means it's easy for most people to hear it, but without
>> the
>> words, the communication is not anywhere near accurate.
>>
>>
>> On Feb 13, 2006, at 12:24 PM, apalomba@austin.rr.com wrote:
>>
>>> Actually I don't agree with you at all. You are comparing
>>> the language of written word to the musical language
>>> which are not equivalent in complexity. The concept of
>>> a biscuit is hard to describe in the musical language but
>>> I could certainly "make up" some sequence of grammatical
>>> music elements that would describe a biscuit. Perhaps the
>>> melodies would be light and flaky, yet very filling.
>>> I could then notate these grammatical elements and
>>> other musicians could reliably decode and reproduce
>>> my thoughts. And since music is a simpler language,
>>> a language that everyone understand, it does not need to be
>>> translated. So you see I have all the elements of a language
>>> that you describe. In the end, trying to convey a biscuit
>>> in a musical language may be too complicated or beyond the
>>> scope of the language.
>>>
>>> Now poetry is a better analogy because it is trying to do
>>> the same thing music is trying to do. It is trying to
>>> encode emotive thought.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anthony
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Michael Gogins 
>>> Date: Monday, February 13, 2006 1:32 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] Algorithmic composition - the simplest model
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> ----
>> Prof. R. Erik Spjut (spyoot rhymes with cute)
>> Engineering Department, Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
>> erik_spjut@hmc.edu   Ph. (909) 607-3890  Fax (909) 621-8967
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
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>>
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----
Prof. R. Erik Spjut (spyoot rhymes with cute)
Engineering Department, Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
erik_spjut@hmc.edu   Ph. (909) 607-3890  Fax (909) 621-8967