I'm going to agree with Michael and Disagree with Anthony on this one.

Music is not anywhere near a universal language. Try playing some  
microtonal mid-eastern music for a brother from the 'hood or a frat  
boy and see how well it's understood.

If we take music that is seriously intended to convey a particular  
meaning and don't include the descriptive text it still doesn't work.  
Just play Beethoven's 6th symphony or Grofé's Grand Canyon Suite to a  
group of people who've never heard it before (pathetically easy to  
find these days) and ask them to say what it means. You might find  
one or two who will mention the composer's actual intent, but the  
majority will describe something else. Once your are told (in words)  
what it means it's easy for most people to hear it, but without the  
words, the communication is not anywhere near accurate.


On Feb 13, 2006, at 12:24 PM, apalomba@austin.rr.com wrote:

> Actually I don't agree with you at all. You are comparing
> the language of written word to the musical language
> which are not equivalent in complexity. The concept of
> a biscuit is hard to describe in the musical language but
> I could certainly "make up" some sequence of grammatical
> music elements that would describe a biscuit. Perhaps the
> melodies would be light and flaky, yet very filling.
> I could then notate these grammatical elements and
> other musicians could reliably decode and reproduce
> my thoughts. And since music is a simpler language,
> a language that everyone understand, it does not need to be
> translated. So you see I have all the elements of a language
> that you describe. In the end, trying to convey a biscuit
> in a musical language may be too complicated or beyond the
> scope of the language.
>
> Now poetry is a better analogy because it is trying to do
> the same thing music is trying to do. It is trying to
> encode emotive thought.
>
>
>
>
> Anthony
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Gogins 
> Date: Monday, February 13, 2006 1:32 pm
> Subject: Re: [Csnd] Algorithmic composition - the simplest model
>
>> -----Original Message-----

----
Prof. R. Erik Spjut (spyoot rhymes with cute)
Engineering Department, Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
erik_spjut@hmc.edu   Ph. (909) 607-3890  Fax (909) 621-8967

In addition, sheet music, or a CSound .csd file IS written in a  
language. The notes on the page convey a set of instructions for  
generating pitches/notes/frequencies in a set sequence at set  
relative times. The instructions for generating the sound waves are  
definitely a language, but what the sounds themselves mean or how  
they are understood and interpreted is highly individual and  
stretched quite a ways from a language.

On Feb 13, 2006, at 1:33 PM, Erik Spjut wrote:

> I'm going to agree with Michael and Disagree with Anthony on this one.
>
> Music is not anywhere near a universal language. Try playing some  
> microtonal mid-eastern music for a brother from the 'hood or a frat  
> boy and see how well it's understood.
>
> If we take music that is seriously intended to convey a particular  
> meaning and don't include the descriptive text it still doesn't  
> work. Just play Beethoven's 6th symphony or Grofé's Grand Canyon  
> Suite to a group of people who've never heard it before  
> (pathetically easy to find these days) and ask them to say what it  
> means. You might find one or two who will mention the composer's  
> actual intent, but the majority will describe something else. Once  
> your are told (in words) what it means it's easy for most people to  
> hear it, but without the words, the communication is not anywhere  
> near accurate.
>
>
> On Feb 13, 2006, at 12:24 PM, apalomba@austin.rr.com wrote:
>
>> Actually I don't agree with you at all. You are comparing
>> the language of written word to the musical language
>> which are not equivalent in complexity. The concept of
>> a biscuit is hard to describe in the musical language but
>> I could certainly "make up" some sequence of grammatical
>> music elements that would describe a biscuit. Perhaps the
>> melodies would be light and flaky, yet very filling.
>> I could then notate these grammatical elements and
>> other musicians could reliably decode and reproduce
>> my thoughts. And since music is a simpler language,
>> a language that everyone understand, it does not need to be
>> translated. So you see I have all the elements of a language
>> that you describe. In the end, trying to convey a biscuit
>> in a musical language may be too complicated or beyond the
>> scope of the language.
>>
>> Now poetry is a better analogy because it is trying to do
>> the same thing music is trying to do. It is trying to
>> encode emotive thought.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Anthony
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Michael Gogins 
>> Date: Monday, February 13, 2006 1:32 pm
>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] Algorithmic composition - the simplest model
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>
> ----
> Prof. R. Erik Spjut (spyoot rhymes with cute)
> Engineering Department, Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
> erik_spjut@hmc.edu   Ph. (909) 607-3890  Fax (909) 621-8967
>
>
> --
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk

----
Prof. R. Erik Spjut (spyoot rhymes with cute)
Engineering Department, Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
erik_spjut@hmc.edu   Ph. (909) 607-3890  Fax (909) 621-8967