Hi,

I'm 48 and I have done a lot of what you called «alive music» with tapes,
sound generators (taken from a physics lab) and analog synths. Then I played
and taught classical guitar for around twenty years. When I first came
across Csound (almost five years ago), I was fascinated by the rendering of
Stockhausen Study II by a Csounder. I have even surperposed the two
versions, analog and csound, in a recording and it was amazing. You should
listen to it before using the usual stereotype about digital (computer)
music. By the way, a lot of what you call «alive music» sound quite pale and
cold compare to Csound. Hey, the medium is not to blame, that's the job of
the artist.

- mdd


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Akbari" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 8:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Csnd] synthesys or tape music ?


If the musical sensibility is present, then the software used to
implement musical ideas is of no consequence.

Personally I have yet to hear any music made with Digital Performer or
any other comparable piece of commercial software that really "sounded
alive". Actually it's proven only to make music sound less alive,
because too often I hear the music of my colleagues that is all done
with commercial software and layering presets and it "sounds good", but
only because it has a certain polish that is afforded exclusively by
modern software.

By contrast, I hear many pieces of music made with Csound that sound
analogous to the ideas found in Musiqué Concrète in many ways. Perhaps
you should listen to more of the music on cSounds.com in the "[+]
Listen!" tab. You will find that more techniques are used from Musiqué
Concrète in Csound than anywhere else because of the low-level control
of audio samples either in RAM or streamed from disk that relate
directly to the tape techniques implemented in Musiqué Conctète.

I also curiously wonder why people think a click-and-draw linear
automation capability is superior in any way to the idea of indexing
tables ? Why not just use Cecilia and draw your panning if you feel
that's the most musical way to do it ? At least you're not limited to
127 steps of resolution..

Too often avid supporters of such commercial software are ultimately
slaves of the preset, and it shows in their music. Csound is what you
use when "out of the box" no longer cuts it.


-David

On Feb 13, 2006, at 6:08 AM, Drweski nicolas wrote:

> Personaly, I have never heard a piece of "programmed
> music " that sounded alive. And never heard too a
> piece composed with csound that was really taking
> advantage of volumes and panoramic like in the musique
> concrète ( schaeffer, bayle...) for example witch have
> really an art of mixing and produce sounds. Maybe I
> don't know them, but I have listen a lot.
>
> Nicolas
>
> --- Victor Lazzarini  a
> écrit :
>
>> How 'alive' the sound coming out of Csound is will
>> depend on:
>>
>> 1. your synthesis/processing algorithm
>> 2. your ability and knowledge of it, so that it can
>> what you
>> want it to do.
>>
>> Commercial software such as Performer generally will
>> come
>> with settings that are ready-to-go for doing the
>> standard stuff.
>> So it is no wonder that it gives you a better result
>> against
>> straight away. With Csound, the ball is in your
>> court and
>> you have to make it work.
>>
>> It is not true that you cannot automate or control
>> volume (or
>> any other parameter) in Csound. There are many
>> different ways
>>   you can do it, for instance:
>>
>> 1. use an envelope
>> 2. use a MIDI controller
>> 3. use a GUI controller
>>
>> As for pan, you can do any panning you'd like:
>> intensity,
>> time-delay-based, HRTF, ambisonics 1st and 2nd
>> order, stereo,
>> quad, 5.1, 7.1, 32-channel, ... all you need to do
>> is implement
>> it in the orchestra language.
>>
>> That is the real bottom line: you have to learn to
>> cook.
>>
>> Victor
>>
>> At 10:11 13/02/2006, you wrote:
>>> I would like to raise a interrogation.
>>> I use Csound since one year, and i found it very
>>> impressive in the domain of the sound making.  But
>> I
>>> have to admit that the "sound" of csound is not
>> alive.
>>> The volume cannot be used as a full paramater like
>> for
>>> example in digital performer with automation.
>> Another
>>> aspect witch is important to me is the panoramic
>> and
>>> it can't be fully controled with Csound. I am not
>>> talking about going from left to right but about
>>> making of space a living parameter.
>>> The last interrogation goes on the parfection of
>>> sound. I tried to record them with a microphone and
>> to
>>> put them together with digital performer and it
>> seem
>>> to me that it gain in richness of sound ( even if
>> the
>>> sounds are not very rich ).
>>>
>>> But I have to say that csound's possibilities are
>>> quite impressive for professional of pograming with
>> it
>>> in the domain of sound. But sound is living.
>>>
>>> To put an exemple of what i have said here, you can
>>> listen to an extract of a music witch is called :
>>> "rapport à l'eau" and witch you can find find here
>> :
>>>
>>> http://www.lalolne.com/computermusic.htm ( look for
>>> the piece called "rapport à l'eau", the first two
>>> aren't good, and the 1492 cycle is interesting but
>>> have some sound problem )
>>>
>>> Good Time.
>>>
>>> Nicolas DRWESKI
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________________
>> _____
>>> Nouveau : téléphonez moins cher avec Yahoo!
>> Messenger ! Découvez les
>>> tarifs exceptionnels pour appeler la France et
>> l'international.
>>> Téléchargez sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com
>>> --
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email to
>> csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>
>> Victor Lazzarini
>> Music Technology Laboratory
>> Music Department
>> National University of Ireland, Maynooth
>>
>> --
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email to
>> csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> ____
> Nouveau : téléphonez moins cher avec Yahoo! Messenger ! Découvez les
> tarifs exceptionnels pour appeler la France et l'international.
> Téléchargez sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com
> -- 
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
>

-- 
Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk

Hi Nicolas,

As you so eloquently put one sees life where one wants to see life. For  
you it seems, that would be exclusively in a linearly interpolated  
breakpoint editor - according to your attached screenshots.

I reiterate this point from my original reply to this thread: simply  
using a breakpoint linear automation on top of streaming audio from  
disk is much more "pale" than anything Csound is capable of. The  
difference between Csound and your screenshot ? You're limited to this  
type of breakpoint in this proprietary implementation. With Csound, it  
is your choice and you can choose any number of other interpolation  
algorithms, of which 99% will sound better than simply changing values  
linearly from 0-127; no matter how dense your breakpoints are to one  
another.

Csound is like a mirror, you get out exactly what you put in. It's no  
surprise then that if you put nothing in, you see nothing.

You require a linear breakpoint to "sound musical" in your compositions  
? It is no question you should be using Cecilia  
http://www.csounds.com/cecilia

You require a timeline view to arrange your musique concrete to REALLY  
REALLY mix ? It is no question you should be using Blue  
http://www.csounds.com/stevenyi/blue

Please do not assume that because you cannot completely see the  
potential of a program like Csound that such potential does not exist.

Of course, if you are seriously studying electroacoustic music, then  
obviously there's the inevitable discussion on what techniques have  
been used in the past. Of course it is easiest to use proprietary  
techniques for fast results. We begin to address this idea of  
production vs. pedagogy, which is beyond the scope of what you seem to  
be getting at.

For example, a superior implementation to your linear breakpoint  
envelope as far as volume is concerned exists in several UDO's on the  
cSounds.com repository. Not the least of which is an UDO called  
"gainslider" (see  
http://www.csounds.com/udo/displayOpcode.php?opcode_id=59)

This UDO implements a continuous, haptic control over volume expressed  
in dB. It is typical to supply it with values from 0-127 but this  
reality is only a limitation of the hardware. Csound can of course  
interpret 21-bit MIDI data and has been able to for quite some time.

I suppose I fail to see why, as you suggest, "pointing and clicking" is  
in any way more musical than any of the sorts of MIDI, OSC  
(http://www.csounds.com/udo/displayOpcode.php?opcode_id=58), or GUI  
controls that Csound implements for musical control of sound synthesis.

The difference is you trade knowledge and time for good musical  
expression in Csound. Else, you trade money for someone to wrap up  
common techniques in a nice little package for you to poke around in  
the box and feel like you're doing something original.


-David

On Feb 13, 2006, at 9:47 AM, Drweski nicolas wrote:

> As I can see, one see life where want to see life.
> Personaly, Csound sounds, if they are not controlled
> by automation, quite pale. And the enveloppe is not
> the problem, neither presets. I personally don't use
> presets, but when a "sound" or trame last one minute,
> control its intensity and panoramic each of its second
> is very important to give a piece some reliev ( excuse
> my english, I am doing my best ) . I was saying the
> same of csound before I enter in one of the last
> electroacoustique course in paris, but the richness of
> concrete music or tape music made me change my mind.
>
> But i have joint some visual exemples to show what I
> am saying. If it is possible to REALLY REALLY mix with
> Csound i am completely in the errors, and still I am
> waiting to see.
>
> Nicolas ( excuse my english again )
>
> PS In concrete music I have in mind alain savouret,
> françois Bayle, all this new aesthetic witch have been
> a little put aside.  See at ubu.com
>
> --- Marc Demers  a écrit :
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm 48 and I have done a lot of what you called
>> «alive music» with tapes,
>> sound generators (taken from a physics lab) and
>> analog synths. Then I played
>> and taught classical guitar for around twenty years.
>> When I first came
>> across Csound (almost five years ago), I was
>> fascinated by the rendering of
>> Stockhausen Study II by a Csounder. I have even
>> surperposed the two
>> versions, analog and csound, in a recording and it
>> was amazing. You should
>> listen to it before using the usual stereotype about
>> digital (computer)
>> music. By the way, a lot of what you call «alive
>> music» sound quite pale and
>> cold compare to Csound. Hey, the medium is not to
>> blame, that's the job of
>> the artist.
>>
>> - mdd
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Akbari" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 8:19 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] synthesys or tape music ?
>>
>>
>> If the musical sensibility is present, then the
>> software used to
>> implement musical ideas is of no consequence.
>>
>> Personally I have yet to hear any music made with
>> Digital Performer or
>> any other comparable piece of commercial software
>> that really "sounded
>> alive". Actually it's proven only to make music
>> sound less alive,
>> because too often I hear the music of my colleagues
>> that is all done
>> with commercial software and layering presets and it
>> "sounds good", but
>> only because it has a certain polish that is
>> afforded exclusively by
>> modern software.
>>
>> By contrast, I hear many pieces of music made with
>> Csound that sound
>> analogous to the ideas found in Musiqué Concrète in
>> many ways. Perhaps
>> you should listen to more of the music on
>> cSounds.com in the "[+]
>> Listen!" tab. You will find that more techniques are
>> used from Musiqué
>> Concrète in Csound than anywhere else because of the
>> low-level control
>> of audio samples either in RAM or streamed from disk
>> that relate
>> directly to the tape techniques implemented in
>> Musiqué Conctète.
>>
>> I also curiously wonder why people think a
>> click-and-draw linear
>> automation capability is superior in any way to the
>> idea of indexing
>> tables ? Why not just use Cecilia and draw your
>> panning if you feel
>> that's the most musical way to do it ? At least
>> you're not limited to
>> 127 steps of resolution..
>>
>> Too often avid supporters of such commercial
>> software are ultimately
>> slaves of the preset, and it shows in their music.
>> Csound is what you
>> use when "out of the box" no longer cuts it.
>>
>>
>> -David
>>
>> On Feb 13, 2006, at 6:08 AM, Drweski nicolas wrote:
>>
>>> Personaly, I have never heard a piece of
>> "programmed
>>> music " that sounded alive. And never heard too a
>>> piece composed with csound that was really taking
>>> advantage of volumes and panoramic like in the
>> musique
>>> concrète ( schaeffer, bayle...) for example witch
>> have
>>> really an art of mixing and produce sounds. Maybe
>> I
>>> don't know them, but I have listen a lot.
>>>
>>> Nicolas
>>>
>>> --- Victor Lazzarini  a
>>> écrit :
>>>
>>>> How 'alive' the sound coming out of Csound is
>> will
>>>> depend on:
>>>>
>>>> 1. your synthesis/processing algorithm
>>>> 2. your ability and knowledge of it, so that it
>> can
>>>> what you
>>>> want it to do.
>>>>
>>>> Commercial software such as Performer generally
>> will
>>>> come
>>>> with settings that are ready-to-go for doing the
>>>> standard stuff.
>>>> So it is no wonder that it gives you a better
>> result
>>>> against
>>>> straight away. With Csound, the ball is in your
>>>> court and
>>>> you have to make it work.
>>>>
>>>> It is not true that you cannot automate or
>> control
>>>> volume (or
>>>> any other parameter) in Csound. There are many
>>>> different ways
>>>>   you can do it, for instance:
>>>>
>>>> 1. use an envelope
>>>> 2. use a MIDI controller
>>>> 3. use a GUI controller
>>>>
>>>> As for pan, you can do any panning you'd like:
>>>> intensity,
>>>> time-delay-based, HRTF, ambisonics 1st and 2nd
>>>> order, stereo,
>>>> quad, 5.1, 7.1, 32-channel, ... all you need to
>> do
>>>> is implement
>>>> it in the orchestra language.
>>>>
>>>> That is the real bottom line: you have to learn
>> to
>>>> cook.
>>>>
>>>> Victor
>>>>
>>>> At 10:11 13/02/2006, you wrote:
>>>>> I would like to raise a interrogation.
>>>>> I use Csound since one year, and i found it very
>>>>> impressive in the domain of the sound making.
>> But
>>>> I
>>>>> have to admit that the "sound" of csound is not
>>>> alive.
>>>>> The volume cannot be used as a full paramater
>> like
>>>> for
>>>>> example in digital performer with automation.
>>>> Another
>>>>> aspect witch is important to me is the panoramic
>>>> and
>>>>> it can't be fully controled with Csound. I am
>> not
>>>>> talking about going from left to right but about
>>>>> making of space a living parameter.
>>>>> The last interrogation goes on the parfection of
>>>>> sound. I tried to record them with a microphone
>> and
>>>> to
>>>>> put them together with digital performer and it
>>>> seem
>>>>> to me that it gain in richness of sound ( even
>> if
>>>> the
>>>>> sounds are not very rich ).
>>>>>
>>>>> But I have to say that csound's possibilities
>> are
>>>>> quite impressive for professional of pograming
>> with
>>>> it
>>>>> in the domain of sound. But sound is living.
>>>>>
>>>>> To put an exemple of what i have said here, you
>> can
>>>>> listen to an extract of a music witch is called
>> :
>>>>> "rapport à l'eau" and witch you can find find
>> here
>>>> :
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.lalolne.com/computermusic.htm ( look
>> for
>>>>> the piece called "rapport à l'eau", the first
>> two
>>>>> aren't good, and the 1492 cycle is interesting
>> but
>>
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> 	
>
> 	
> 		
> _______________________________________________________________________ 
> ____
> Nouveau : téléphonez moins cher avec Yahoo! Messenger ! Découvez les  
> tarifs exceptionnels pour appeler la France et l'international.
> Téléchargez sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com

Well said, David.
By the way, where can we buy a p5 glove, and for how much?

Victor

At 16:43 13/02/2006, you wrote:
>Hi Nicolas,
>
>As you so eloquently put one sees life where one wants to see life. For
>you it seems, that would be exclusively in a linearly interpolated
>breakpoint editor - according to your attached screenshots.
>
>I reiterate this point from my original reply to this thread: simply
>using a breakpoint linear automation on top of streaming audio from
>disk is much more "pale" than anything Csound is capable of. The
>difference between Csound and your screenshot ? You're limited to this
>type of breakpoint in this proprietary implementation. With Csound, it
>is your choice and you can choose any number of other interpolation
>algorithms, of which 99% will sound better than simply changing values
>linearly from 0-127; no matter how dense your breakpoints are to one
>another.
>
>Csound is like a mirror, you get out exactly what you put in. It's no
>surprise then that if you put nothing in, you see nothing.
>
>You require a linear breakpoint to "sound musical" in your compositions
>? It is no question you should be using Cecilia
>http://www.csounds.com/cecilia
>
>You require a timeline view to arrange your musique concrete to REALLY
>REALLY mix ? It is no question you should be using Blue
>http://www.csounds.com/stevenyi/blue
>
>Please do not assume that because you cannot completely see the
>potential of a program like Csound that such potential does not exist.
>
>Of course, if you are seriously studying electroacoustic music, then
>obviously there's the inevitable discussion on what techniques have
>been used in the past. Of course it is easiest to use proprietary
>techniques for fast results. We begin to address this idea of
>production vs. pedagogy, which is beyond the scope of what you seem to
>be getting at.
>
>For example, a superior implementation to your linear breakpoint
>envelope as far as volume is concerned exists in several UDO's on the
>cSounds.com repository. Not the least of which is an UDO called
>"gainslider" (see
>http://www.csounds.com/udo/displayOpcode.php?opcode_id=59)
>
>This UDO implements a continuous, haptic control over volume expressed
>in dB. It is typical to supply it with values from 0-127 but this
>reality is only a limitation of the hardware. Csound can of course
>interpret 21-bit MIDI data and has been able to for quite some time.
>
>I suppose I fail to see why, as you suggest, "pointing and clicking" is
>in any way more musical than any of the sorts of MIDI, OSC
>(http://www.csounds.com/udo/displayOpcode.php?opcode_id=58), or GUI
>controls that Csound implements for musical control of sound synthesis.
>
>The difference is you trade knowledge and time for good musical
>expression in Csound. Else, you trade money for someone to wrap up
>common techniques in a nice little package for you to poke around in
>the box and feel like you're doing something original.
>
>
>-David
>
>On Feb 13, 2006, at 9:47 AM, Drweski nicolas wrote:
>
>>As I can see, one see life where want to see life.
>>Personaly, Csound sounds, if they are not controlled
>>by automation, quite pale. And the enveloppe is not
>>the problem, neither presets. I personally don't use
>>presets, but when a "sound" or trame last one minute,
>>control its intensity and panoramic each of its second
>>is very important to give a piece some reliev ( excuse
>>my english, I am doing my best ) . I was saying the
>>same of csound before I enter in one of the last
>>electroacoustique course in paris, but the richness of
>>concrete music or tape music made me change my mind.
>>
>>But i have joint some visual exemples to show what I
>>am saying. If it is possible to REALLY REALLY mix with
>>Csound i am completely in the errors, and still I am
>>waiting to see.
>>
>>Nicolas ( excuse my english again )
>>
>>PS In concrete music I have in mind alain savouret,
>>françois Bayle, all this new aesthetic witch have been
>>a little put aside.  See at ubu.com
>>
>>--- Marc Demers  a écrit :
>>
>>>Hi,
>>>
>>>I'm 48 and I have done a lot of what you called
>>>«alive music» with tapes,
>>>sound generators (taken from a physics lab) and
>>>analog synths. Then I played
>>>and taught classical guitar for around twenty years.
>>>When I first came
>>>across Csound (almost five years ago), I was
>>>fascinated by the rendering of
>>>Stockhausen Study II by a Csounder. I have even
>>>surperposed the two
>>>versions, analog and csound, in a recording and it
>>>was amazing. You should
>>>listen to it before using the usual stereotype about
>>>digital (computer)
>>>music. By the way, a lot of what you call «alive
>>>music» sound quite pale and
>>>cold compare to Csound. Hey, the medium is not to
>>>blame, that's the job of
>>>the artist.
>>>
>>>- mdd
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "David Akbari" 
>>>To: 
>>>Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 8:19 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [Csnd] synthesys or tape music ?
>>>
>>>
>>>If the musical sensibility is present, then the
>>>software used to
>>>implement musical ideas is of no consequence.
>>>
>>>Personally I have yet to hear any music made with
>>>Digital Performer or
>>>any other comparable piece of commercial software
>>>that really "sounded
>>>alive". Actually it's proven only to make music
>>>sound less alive,
>>>because too often I hear the music of my colleagues
>>>that is all done
>>>with commercial software and layering presets and it
>>>"sounds good", but
>>>only because it has a certain polish that is
>>>afforded exclusively by
>>>modern software.
>>>
>>>By contrast, I hear many pieces of music made with
>>>Csound that sound
>>>analogous to the ideas found in Musiqué Concrète in
>>>many ways. Perhaps
>>>you should listen to more of the music on
>>>cSounds.com in the "[+]
>>>Listen!" tab. You will find that more techniques are
>>>used from Musiqué
>>>Concrète in Csound than anywhere else because of the
>>>low-level control
>>>of audio samples either in RAM or streamed from disk
>>>that relate
>>>directly to the tape techniques implemented in
>>>Musiqué Conctète.
>>>
>>>I also curiously wonder why people think a
>>>click-and-draw linear
>>>automation capability is superior in any way to the
>>>idea of indexing
>>>tables ? Why not just use Cecilia and draw your
>>>panning if you feel
>>>that's the most musical way to do it ? At least
>>>you're not limited to
>>>127 steps of resolution..
>>>
>>>Too often avid supporters of such commercial
>>>software are ultimately
>>>slaves of the preset, and it shows in their music.
>>>Csound is what you
>>>use when "out of the box" no longer cuts it.
>>>
>>>
>>>-David
>>>
>>>On Feb 13, 2006, at 6:08 AM, Drweski nicolas wrote:
>>>
>>>>Personaly, I have never heard a piece of
>>>"programmed
>>>>music " that sounded alive. And never heard too a
>>>>piece composed with csound that was really taking
>>>>advantage of volumes and panoramic like in the
>>>musique
>>>>concrète ( schaeffer, bayle...) for example witch
>>>have
>>>>really an art of mixing and produce sounds. Maybe
>>>I
>>>>don't know them, but I have listen a lot.
>>>>
>>>>Nicolas
>>>>
>>>>--- Victor Lazzarini  a
>>>>écrit :
>>>>
>>>>>How 'alive' the sound coming out of Csound is
>>>will
>>>>>depend on:
>>>>>
>>>>>1. your synthesis/processing algorithm
>>>>>2. your ability and knowledge of it, so that it
>>>can
>>>>>what you
>>>>>want it to do.
>>>>>
>>>>>Commercial software such as Performer generally
>>>will
>>>>>come
>>>>>with settings that are ready-to-go for doing the
>>>>>standard stuff.
>>>>>So it is no wonder that it gives you a better
>>>result
>>>>>against
>>>>>straight away. With Csound, the ball is in your
>>>>>court and
>>>>>you have to make it work.
>>>>>
>>>>>It is not true that you cannot automate or
>>>control
>>>>>volume (or
>>>>>any other parameter) in Csound. There are many
>>>>>different ways
>>>>>   you can do it, for instance:
>>>>>
>>>>>1. use an envelope
>>>>>2. use a MIDI controller
>>>>>3. use a GUI controller
>>>>>
>>>>>As for pan, you can do any panning you'd like:
>>>>>intensity,
>>>>>time-delay-based, HRTF, ambisonics 1st and 2nd
>>>>>order, stereo,
>>>>>quad, 5.1, 7.1, 32-channel, ... all you need to
>>>do
>>>>>is implement
>>>>>it in the orchestra language.
>>>>>
>>>>>That is the real bottom line: you have to learn
>>>to
>>>>>cook.
>>>>>
>>>>>Victor
>>>>>
>>>>>At 10:11 13/02/2006, you wrote:
>>>>>>I would like to raise a interrogation.
>>>>>>I use Csound since one year, and i found it very
>>>>>>impressive in the domain of the sound making.
>>>But
>>>>>I
>>>>>>have to admit that the "sound" of csound is not
>>>>>alive.
>>>>>>The volume cannot be used as a full paramater
>>>like
>>>>>for
>>>>>>example in digital performer with automation.
>>>>>Another
>>>>>>aspect witch is important to me is the panoramic
>>>>>and
>>>>>>it can't be fully controled with Csound. I am
>>>not
>>>>>>talking about going from left to right but about
>>>>>>making of space a living parameter.
>>>>>>The last interrogation goes on the parfection of
>>>>>>sound. I tried to record them with a microphone
>>>and
>>>>>to
>>>>>>put them together with digital performer and it
>>>>>seem
>>>>>>to me that it gain in richness of sound ( even
>>>if
>>>>>the
>>>>>>sounds are not very rich ).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But I have to say that csound's possibilities
>>>are
>>>>>>quite impressive for professional of pograming
>>>with
>>>>>it
>>>>>>in the domain of sound. But sound is living.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>To put an exemple of what i have said here, you
>>>can
>>>>>>listen to an extract of a music witch is called
>>>:
>>>>>>"rapport à l'eau" and witch you can find find
>>>here
>>>>>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.lalolne.com/computermusic.htm ( look
>>>for
>>>>>>the piece called "rapport à l'eau", the first
>>>two
>>>>>>aren't good, and the 1492 cycle is interesting
>>>but
>>=== message truncated ===
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________________________________ ____
>>Nouveau : téléphonez moins cher avec Yahoo! Messenger ! Découvez les
>>tarifs exceptionnels pour appeler la France et l'international.
>>Téléchargez sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com
>--
>Send bugs reports to this list.
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Victor Lazzarini
Music Technology Laboratory
Music Department
National University of Ireland, Maynooth 

I say google or eBay, in that order. I got one for $12.00 on eBay some 
months back.

Although it seems as they are increasing in popularity, the price is 
also going up. From the URL listed in the UDO manual entry 
(http://www.vrealities.com/P5.html) it states $59.00 but I bet you can 
find one for much cheaper.

Actually if there's anyone who knows where to get p5 gloves at a 
reasonable price, I would imagine it's Dr. Boulanger, since he has so 
many.


-David

On Feb 13, 2006, at 12:02 PM, Victor Lazzarini wrote:

> Well said, David.
> By the way, where can we buy a p5 glove, and for how much?
>
> Victor
>
> At 16:43 13/02/2006, you wrote:
>> Hi Nicolas,
>>
>> As you so eloquently put one sees life where one wants to see life. 
>> For
>> you it seems, that would be exclusively in a linearly interpolated
>> breakpoint editor - according to your attached screenshots.
>>
>> I reiterate this point from my original reply to this thread: simply
>> using a breakpoint linear automation on top of streaming audio from
>> disk is much more "pale" than anything Csound is capable of. The
>> difference between Csound and your screenshot ? You're limited to this
>> type of breakpoint in this proprietary implementation. With Csound, it
>> is your choice and you can choose any number of other interpolation
>> algorithms, of which 99% will sound better than simply changing values
>> linearly from 0-127; no matter how dense your breakpoints are to one
>> another.
>>
>> Csound is like a mirror, you get out exactly what you put in. It's no
>> surprise then that if you put nothing in, you see nothing.
>>
>> You require a linear breakpoint to "sound musical" in your 
>> compositions
>> ? It is no question you should be using Cecilia
>> http://www.csounds.com/cecilia
>>
>> You require a timeline view to arrange your musique concrete to REALLY
>> REALLY mix ? It is no question you should be using Blue
>> http://www.csounds.com/stevenyi/blue
>>
>> Please do not assume that because you cannot completely see the
>> potential of a program like Csound that such potential does not exist.
>>
>> Of course, if you are seriously studying electroacoustic music, then
>> obviously there's the inevitable discussion on what techniques have
>> been used in the past. Of course it is easiest to use proprietary
>> techniques for fast results. We begin to address this idea of
>> production vs. pedagogy, which is beyond the scope of what you seem to
>> be getting at.
>>
>> For example, a superior implementation to your linear breakpoint
>> envelope as far as volume is concerned exists in several UDO's on the
>> cSounds.com repository. Not the least of which is an UDO called
>> "gainslider" (see
>> http://www.csounds.com/udo/displayOpcode.php?opcode_id=59)
>>
>> This UDO implements a continuous, haptic control over volume expressed
>> in dB. It is typical to supply it with values from 0-127 but this
>> reality is only a limitation of the hardware. Csound can of course
>> interpret 21-bit MIDI data and has been able to for quite some time.
>>
>> I suppose I fail to see why, as you suggest, "pointing and clicking" 
>> is
>> in any way more musical than any of the sorts of MIDI, OSC
>> (http://www.csounds.com/udo/displayOpcode.php?opcode_id=58), or GUI
>> controls that Csound implements for musical control of sound 
>> synthesis.
>>
>> The difference is you trade knowledge and time for good musical
>> expression in Csound. Else, you trade money for someone to wrap up
>> common techniques in a nice little package for you to poke around in
>> the box and feel like you're doing something original.
>>
>>
>> -David
>>
>> On Feb 13, 2006, at 9:47 AM, Drweski nicolas wrote:
>>
>>> As I can see, one see life where want to see life.
>>> Personaly, Csound sounds, if they are not controlled
>>> by automation, quite pale. And the enveloppe is not
>>> the problem, neither presets. I personally don't use
>>> presets, but when a "sound" or trame last one minute,
>>> control its intensity and panoramic each of its second
>>> is very important to give a piece some reliev ( excuse
>>> my english, I am doing my best ) . I was saying the
>>> same of csound before I enter in one of the last
>>> electroacoustique course in paris, but the richness of
>>> concrete music or tape music made me change my mind.
>>>
>>> But i have joint some visual exemples to show what I
>>> am saying. If it is possible to REALLY REALLY mix with
>>> Csound i am completely in the errors, and still I am
>>> waiting to see.
>>>
>>> Nicolas ( excuse my english again )
>>>
>>> PS In concrete music I have in mind alain savouret,
>>> françois Bayle, all this new aesthetic witch have been
>>> a little put aside.  See at ubu.com
>>>
>>> --- Marc Demers  a écrit :
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I'm 48 and I have done a lot of what you called
>>>> «alive music» with tapes,
>>>> sound generators (taken from a physics lab) and
>>>> analog synths. Then I played
>>>> and taught classical guitar for around twenty years.
>>>> When I first came
>>>> across Csound (almost five years ago), I was
>>>> fascinated by the rendering of
>>>> Stockhausen Study II by a Csounder. I have even
>>>> surperposed the two
>>>> versions, analog and csound, in a recording and it
>>>> was amazing. You should
>>>> listen to it before using the usual stereotype about
>>>> digital (computer)
>>>> music. By the way, a lot of what you call «alive
>>>> music» sound quite pale and
>>>> cold compare to Csound. Hey, the medium is not to
>>>> blame, that's the job of
>>>> the artist.
>>>>
>>>> - mdd
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "David Akbari" 
>>>> To: 
>>>> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 8:19 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] synthesys or tape music ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If the musical sensibility is present, then the
>>>> software used to
>>>> implement musical ideas is of no consequence.
>>>>
>>>> Personally I have yet to hear any music made with
>>>> Digital Performer or
>>>> any other comparable piece of commercial software
>>>> that really "sounded
>>>> alive". Actually it's proven only to make music
>>>> sound less alive,
>>>> because too often I hear the music of my colleagues
>>>> that is all done
>>>> with commercial software and layering presets and it
>>>> "sounds good", but
>>>> only because it has a certain polish that is
>>>> afforded exclusively by
>>>> modern software.
>>>>
>>>> By contrast, I hear many pieces of music made with
>>>> Csound that sound
>>>> analogous to the ideas found in Musiqué Concrète in
>>>> many ways. Perhaps
>>>> you should listen to more of the music on
>>>> cSounds.com in the "[+]
>>>> Listen!" tab. You will find that more techniques are
>>>> used from Musiqué
>>>> Concrète in Csound than anywhere else because of the
>>>> low-level control
>>>> of audio samples either in RAM or streamed from disk
>>>> that relate
>>>> directly to the tape techniques implemented in
>>>> Musiqué Conctète.
>>>>
>>>> I also curiously wonder why people think a
>>>> click-and-draw linear
>>>> automation capability is superior in any way to the
>>>> idea of indexing
>>>> tables ? Why not just use Cecilia and draw your
>>>> panning if you feel
>>>> that's the most musical way to do it ? At least
>>>> you're not limited to
>>>> 127 steps of resolution..
>>>>
>>>> Too often avid supporters of such commercial
>>>> software are ultimately
>>>> slaves of the preset, and it shows in their music.
>>>> Csound is what you
>>>> use when "out of the box" no longer cuts it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -David
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 13, 2006, at 6:08 AM, Drweski nicolas wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Personaly, I have never heard a piece of
>>>> "programmed
>>>>> music " that sounded alive. And never heard too a
>>>>> piece composed with csound that was really taking
>>>>> advantage of volumes and panoramic like in the
>>>> musique
>>>>> concrète ( schaeffer, bayle...) for example witch
>>>> have
>>>>> really an art of mixing and produce sounds. Maybe
>>>> I
>>>>> don't know them, but I have listen a lot.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nicolas
>>>>>
>>>>> --- Victor Lazzarini  a
>>>>> écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>> How 'alive' the sound coming out of Csound is
>>>> will
>>>>>> depend on:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. your synthesis/processing algorithm
>>>>>> 2. your ability and knowledge of it, so that it
>>>> can
>>>>>> what you
>>>>>> want it to do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Commercial software such as Performer generally
>>>> will
>>>>>> come
>>>>>> with settings that are ready-to-go for doing the
>>>>>> standard stuff.
>>>>>> So it is no wonder that it gives you a better
>>>> result
>>>>>> against
>>>>>> straight away. With Csound, the ball is in your
>>>>>> court and
>>>>>> you have to make it work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is not true that you cannot automate or
>>>> control
>>>>>> volume (or
>>>>>> any other parameter) in Csound. There are many
>>>>>> different ways
>>>>>>   you can do it, for instance:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. use an envelope
>>>>>> 2. use a MIDI controller
>>>>>> 3. use a GUI controller
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for pan, you can do any panning you'd like:
>>>>>> intensity,
>>>>>> time-delay-based, HRTF, ambisonics 1st and 2nd
>>>>>> order, stereo,
>>>>>> quad, 5.1, 7.1, 32-channel, ... all you need to
>>>> do
>>>>>> is implement
>>>>>> it in the orchestra language.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is the real bottom line: you have to learn
>>>> to
>>>>>> cook.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Victor
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At 10:11 13/02/2006, you wrote:
>>>>>>> I would like to raise a interrogation.
>>>>>>> I use Csound since one year, and i found it very
>>>>>>> impressive in the domain of the sound making.
>>>> But
>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> have to admit that the "sound" of csound is not
>>>>>> alive.
>>>>>>> The volume cannot be used as a full paramater
>>>> like
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> example in digital performer with automation.
>>>>>> Another
>>>>>>> aspect witch is important to me is the panoramic
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> it can't be fully controled with Csound. I am
>>>> not
>>>>>>> talking about going from left to right but about
>>>>>>> making of space a living parameter.
>>>>>>> The last interrogation goes on the parfection of
>>>>>>> sound. I tried to record them with a microphone
>>>> and
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> put them together with digital performer and it
>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>> to me that it gain in richness of sound ( even
>>>> if
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> sounds are not very rich ).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I have to say that csound's possibilities
>>>> are
>>>>>>> quite impressive for professional of pograming
>>>> with
>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> in the domain of sound. But sound is living.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To put an exemple of what i have said here, you
>>>> can
>>>>>>> listen to an extract of a music witch is called
>>>> :
>>>>>>> "rapport à l'eau" and witch you can find find
>>>> here
>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.lalolne.com/computermusic.htm ( look
>>>> for
>>>>>>> the piece called "rapport à l'eau", the first
>>>> two
>>>>>>> aren't good, and the 1492 cycle is interesting
>>>> but
>>> === message truncated ===

I imagine the difficulties you are having are two-fold.  1) It is difficult
to create an arbitrarily long list of envelope breakpoints in Csound for a
single instrument instance.  2) Creating lots of expression in "straight"
Csound requires way more typing in the score than almost anyone alive today
can stand to do by hand.

The solution to (2) is to use a graphical front end to Csound as David
suggested (Cecilia and blue being two excellent ones).

The solution to (1) is to overcome the mental limitation of "everything I
want sound X to do has to be programmed in a single instrument Y."  In other
words, divide the work among multiple Csound instruments to accomplish your
modulation goals.

Conceptual example:

instr 1  -  a basic oscillator instrument that reads global variables for
its amplitude and pan position at k-rate.

instr 2 - an arbitrary "envelope generator" that linearly interprets from
its current position to a new position over a given length of time.  This
instrument would use Csound's "tied notes" feature so that you can specify
one breakpoint in the envelope per score event.  It sends its output to one
of the global variables read by instr 1 (say the one for amplitude).

instr 3 - similar to instr 2 except that it allows two-dimensional
breakpoints to be specified, interpreted as pan position either for a
quad-speaker setup or for some spatialization routines that make stereo
sound "two-dimensional".  Sends the resulting values to the pan position
global variables for instr 1.

Here is a simple imaginary score example for how this would work:

i1  0   10  440.0    ; note at 440 Hz for ten seconds
i2  0   .1  16000    ; quick rise to amplitude of 16000
i2  .1  1.0 5000     ; decay to 5000 over next .9 seconds
i2  1   1.5 6000     ; gets a little louder over next .5 sec
i3  0   1   .5  .9   ; pan to (.5, .9) over first second
i3  1   1.2 0   0    ; back to center
i3  1.2 1.5 -1  1    ; out to a corner

etc, etc, etc.

Note that you cannot use "hard-wired" global variables in this way to
separately control more than one note of the same instrument.  If you want
to do this with polyphony, then you need to use a more flexible global
patching system such as Csound's "Zak space" opcodes.

You can do almost anything that you can imagine with Csound.  No one said
that it would be easy though :)


Anthony Kozar
anthonykozar AT sbcglobal DOT net


Drweski nicolas wrote on 2/13/06 9:47 AM:

> But i have joint some visual exemples to show what I
> am saying. If it is possible to REALLY REALLY mix with
> Csound i am completely in the errors, and still I am
> waiting to see.

Hi 
I am trying to extract the individual notes from a chord/harmony when
any melody is inputted. Are there any opcode can help me to achieve
this goal? Thanks.

Chaochi

Hi Anthony,

I thanks you very much for your explanations. You are
right. As I come from the "musique concrète" school (
I even strat with tapes ) I Always accord much
importance to the expression ( like for an instrument
) in volume as in panoramique, and reverb and all...
and this pass by "overcontroll" sounds expression.
So I appriciate your help very much, and I will try
cecilia

Nicolas

--- Anthony Kozar  a
écrit :

> I imagine the difficulties you are having are
> two-fold.  1) It is difficult
> to create an arbitrarily long list of envelope
> breakpoints in Csound for a
> single instrument instance.  2) Creating lots of
> expression in "straight"
> Csound requires way more typing in the score than
> almost anyone alive today
> can stand to do by hand.
> 
> The solution to (2) is to use a graphical front end
> to Csound as David
> suggested (Cecilia and blue being two excellent
> ones).
> 
> The solution to (1) is to overcome the mental
> limitation of "everything I
> want sound X to do has to be programmed in a single
> instrument Y."  In other
> words, divide the work among multiple Csound
> instruments to accomplish your
> modulation goals.
> 
> Conceptual example:
> 
> instr 1  -  a basic oscillator instrument that reads
> global variables for
> its amplitude and pan position at k-rate.
> 
> instr 2 - an arbitrary "envelope generator" that
> linearly interprets from
> its current position to a new position over a given
> length of time.  This
> instrument would use Csound's "tied notes" feature
> so that you can specify
> one breakpoint in the envelope per score event.  It
> sends its output to one
> of the global variables read by instr 1 (say the one
> for amplitude).
> 
> instr 3 - similar to instr 2 except that it allows
> two-dimensional
> breakpoints to be specified, interpreted as pan
> position either for a
> quad-speaker setup or for some spatialization
> routines that make stereo
> sound "two-dimensional".  Sends the resulting values
> to the pan position
> global variables for instr 1.
> 
> Here is a simple imaginary score example for how
> this would work:
> 
> i1  0   10  440.0    ; note at 440 Hz for ten
> seconds
> i2  0   .1  16000    ; quick rise to amplitude of
> 16000
> i2  .1  1.0 5000     ; decay to 5000 over next .9
> seconds
> i2  1   1.5 6000     ; gets a little louder over
> next .5 sec
> i3  0   1   .5  .9   ; pan to (.5, .9) over first
> second
> i3  1   1.2 0   0    ; back to center
> i3  1.2 1.5 -1  1    ; out to a corner
> 
> etc, etc, etc.
> 
> Note that you cannot use "hard-wired" global
> variables in this way to
> separately control more than one note of the same
> instrument.  If you want
> to do this with polyphony, then you need to use a
> more flexible global
> patching system such as Csound's "Zak space"
> opcodes.
> 
> You can do almost anything that you can imagine with
> Csound.  No one said
> that it would be easy though :)
> 
> 
> Anthony Kozar
> anthonykozar AT sbcglobal DOT net
> 
> 
> Drweski nicolas wrote on 2/13/06 9:47 AM:
> 
> > But i have joint some visual exemples to show what
> I
> > am saying. If it is possible to REALLY REALLY mix
> with
> > Csound i am completely in the errors, and still I
> am
> > waiting to see.
> 
> -- 
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email to
> csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
> 



	

	
		
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Hi Ben
Thanks for the info. Yes, I am interested in realtime input. I will
look into those websites you mentioned. Thanks a lot. :-)

Chaochi


-----Original Message-----
From: Ben McAllister [mailto:benmca@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 3:19 PM
To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
Subject: Re: [Csnd] Opcode to extract single note from a chord


Hi Chaochi -

If you are talking about realtime input, some experimentation with
STFT Resythesis (Phase Vocoder unit generators)
http://www.csounds.com/manual/html/SiggenStft.html

and the pitchamdf ugen
http://www.csounds.com/manual/html/pitchamdf.html

will yield interesting results. I started playing with this awhile
back for the same reason, but it led me in another direction and I
never finished what I started ;)  Let us know how it goes!

ps - if you are talking about midi, it's (relatively) easy to read
note-ons with the midi opcodes, and deduce what's been 'inputted'.

b

On 2/13/06, Chaochi Chang  wrote:
>
> Hi
> I am trying to extract the individual notes from a chord/harmony when
> any melody is inputted. Are there any opcode can help me to achieve
> this goal? Thanks.
>
> Chaochi
> --
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
>
-- 
Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk

Hi,

I was wondering if it was possible by any mean to pass
a csound instrument through a wave/aiff/... files ; or
the contrary. 
For example, to pass a sine wave through a wind sound
recorded in the nature.

Nicolas Drweski


	

	
		
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Yeah - depends on what you're imagining. On a more basic level, you  
could try simply multiplying the output of an oscil by the output of  
a diskin. Basically ring modulation -- sometimes yields interesting  
results.

Best,
Chris

-------------------------------------------------
Dr. Christopher Watts
Director, Newell Center for Arts Technology
Assistant Professor of Music
St. Lawrence University
Canton, NY 13617
315.229.5138
315.229.7425 fax
cwatts@stlawu.edu

"Everything is deeply intertwingled." -Ted Nelson



On Feb 22, 2006, at 10:20 AM, Aidan Collins wrote:

> I'm not sure what you mean by "pass through"
> but the pvcross opcodes will let you cross-sythesize two different
> sound files. I think it puts the amplitude envelopes of one sound onto
> the pitch information of another if you have them both analyzed into
> .pvc files.
> I have also had some success using the krms opcode (less success with
> the balance opcode) to follow the amplitude envelope of one sound, and
> then use that signal to control the amplitude of another. This way you
> don't have to use .pvc files and the rendering speed is much faster
> than with analysis/resynthesis.
>
> On 2/22/06, Drweski nicolas  wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I was wondering if it was possible by any mean to pass
>> a csound instrument through a wave/aiff/... files ; or
>> the contrary.
>> For example, to pass a sine wave through a wind sound
>> recorded in the nature.
>>
>> Nicolas Drweski
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _____________________________________________________________________ 
>> ______
>> Nouveau : téléphonez moins cher avec Yahoo! Messenger ! Découvez  
>> les tarifs exceptionnels pour appeler la France et l'international.
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>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>
> --
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