Csound Csound-dev Csound-tekno Search About

Re: 2nd order Ambisonic encoding, Spatial Reverb and Early reflections

Date2005-10-04 15:24
FromJan Jacob Hofmann
SubjectRe: 2nd order Ambisonic encoding, Spatial Reverb and Early reflections
Dear Michael and list,

for my approach of spatialized composition  and music it is crucial 
that the phantom image is as precise as the sound coming directly from 
the speaker. Ambisonic is excellent in producing fairly stable phantom 
images, even for listeners off-center, with less speakers than in usual 
amplitude panning.  I do anyway regard amplitude panning as not 
convincing at all for the task of producing phantom images when it 
comes to surroundsound or even surroundsound with height. There must 
not be a blurred image or a jumping from speaker to speaker as the 
sound moves around. I needed a method being capable to move sounds 
completely independent of the speakers. Ambisonic does this job 
excellent.

I guess with six speakers and 2nd Order Ambisonic it is pretty easy to 
get stable phantom images for a set-up in a plane ( without height). 
For First Order, four should even be enough.  The higher the order, the 
more speakers are needed but six are definitely sufficient for 
reproducing second order Ambisonic at a plane. Eight speakers should 
make the image even more precise, though. I have done several concerts 
with various speakers for audiences with different amount of people. 
The last I did has been at the ZKM at Karlsruhe/ Germany during the 
Linux Audio Conference in April 2005 with about 100 people listening. 
Eight speakers set up in the shape of an (a bit distorted) octagon were 
used. You can see photos  and brief descriptions of most of the venues 
at my pages at the subject "performance" and "more infos and pictures". 
Some people among this list participated that concert too, among them 
John Ffitch. I guess spatialisation, distance clues and phantom images 
worked very well and I guess the listeners would agree. Comments on 
that concert welcome!

For me it starts to get most interesting, if height is included. Here 
at home, I have a rig with eight Genelec 1030 set up as a cube (one 
speaker at every corner of the cube). Although the numbers of speakers 
should be higher for a reproduction of 2nd order with height component, 
I do still not experience any holes of perception of sound in-between 
the speakers. This may be due to the fact that they are very good 
monitors. With less precise speakers at least 12 might be needed for a 
fine reproduction with height. Dave Malham can explain eloquently and 
mathematically correct the minimum number of speakers for any order and 
type of setup (on a plane or with height) but I do not care too much, 
as for me money is the limiting factor anyway. Also, as you mentioned 
there is the transportation-problem and the time it takes to make a 
proper setup, so I prefer to use the speakers of the venue, as long as 
they are sufficient in quality and number. Still it is difficult to 
find venues which are capable and willing to perform surround, as it 
takes more effort.  Also the effort of composition is much higher, as a 
whole choreography of movement and location has to be created and the 
volume of the sound ofcourse then changes according to its distance. 
Creating and performing surroundsound has always been for me the 
opposite of making "easy money". Still I find it very, very intriguing 
and and a hundred times worth the effort.

I can not tell if Ambisonic will take over professional sound 
production. It depends on what you want. It is a matter of quality and 
effort. If you want a format easy to use, 5,1 surround is much better. 
Just insert the DVD, press play and off we go. But this medium has its 
strict limitations, and if you want (or need) to go beyond, you may 
consider using 2nd Order Ambisonic, as long there is a demand for more 
precise localization.  Ambisonic is for me comparable with Linux and 
Beta-video. All three systems have their advantages, still they did not 
become the main-stream system...yet.

Michael, I found your part very interesting dealing with different 
types of speakers. Could you post some information please where to find 
info about these special types of speakers?

All the best,

Jan Jacob




sound         |         movement          |          object         |   
        space
sonic architecture       |        site: http://www.sonicarchitecture.de
spatial electronic composition     |    2nd order ambisonic music 
  

Date2005-10-04 15:50
FromVictor Lazzarini
SubjectRe: 2nd order Ambisonic encoding, Spatial Reverb and Early reflections
>The last I did has been at the ZKM at Karlsruhe/ Germany during the Linux 
>Audio Conference in April 2005 with about 100 people listening. Eight 
>speakers set up in the shape of an (a bit distorted) octagon were used. 
>You can see photos  and brief descriptions of most of the venues at my 
>pages at the subject "performance" and "more infos and pictures". Some 
>people among this list participated that concert too, among them John Ffitch.

I was there and was very impressed with your stuff. That's when I started 
to want to learn more
about it.

Victor Lazzarini
Music Technology Laboratory
Music Department
National University of Ireland, Maynooth