Mike and Rick,

The *only* problems I've run into with the 5.10 float installer are the ones 
I detailed in a recent email.

I'm not sure why Mike can't reproduce these; perhaps he hasn't tested the 
float version in real time (from the command line)and tried to exit with 
CTRL-C?

Regarding other non-Python-version-related issues: one possible 
simplification for newbees would be a variation on the Super-Compact Csound 
distro I proposed in a recent mail: a single zip, expanded to a single 
directory - perhaps on a USB drive - running from that directory only. If a 
frontend were desired, unzip to the same directory. (Or perhaps the frontend 
and the Super-Compact Csound could even be in the same zip?)

No environment variables; no installer; different versions of Csound can 
coexist without problems.

My two cents.

Art Hunkins

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Gogins" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 5:08 PM
Subject: [Csnd] Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple Installer/Build for 
Windowswith QuteCsound (was: Building Python API (was: Score Alignment 
Utility)


I really don't understand the difficulty with the Windows installers.
I routinely test it at home and at work; and at work, i uninstall
Csound before installing it again. It always just runs out of the box.

Are all of the difficulties that people have because of Python? I'd
appreciate a specific list of problems that people have, preferably
with screen shots of error messages and such.

I need more information! "Doesn't work" or "Took all day" is not helpful.

I can't fix a problem that I can't reproduce...

Best,
Mike

On 7/2/09, Dr. Richard Boulanger  wrote:
> There is Blue.  There is Lettuce.  and they are  great.
> In fact, over the years, there have been many wonderful Windows front-
> ends that integrate powerful compositional/work-flow environments
> and they have been wonderful in their way too.
>
> BUT...
>
> A beginner needs to be able to download and install Csound - for their
> PC especially - and have a version that will let them at least explore
> it some.
>
> So happy that that situation has been somewhat remedied for the Mac
> (thanks to Victor Lazzarini and Andreas Cabrera's work),
> but it is still a bit of a nightmare and showstopper for Windows.
>
> I have a blind student getting started with his Windows PC and
> Csound.... he uses the Jaws program to read the PC displays to him.
> It works great with all his softwware... It just to us (took ME - mr
> Csound) two weeks to get the latest Csound running on his laptop!
>
> Like Art, I have resorted to older versions of the program that just
> worked on Windows... John ffitch's original Winsound from
> The Csound Book and Csound Catalog!  (thanks John)
>
> uuuuugggghhhhh - getting a Windows version that was up to date
> running.... nice........ NOT!
>
> I did a workshop in Korea last year.  All the professors and grad
> students are inspired and rush home to install and try Csound.
>
> They all come back the next day - NO ONE got it running!  NO ONE!!!
>
> Next week, I am doing a workshop at Berklee for gifted High School
> students... Most of them will have PCs....
>
> Last year... I gave out a Prize - the Csound Book - to the student who
> could get it running on their PC and make Toot1.
> Of the 40+ API advanced Physics Science Prize nerds there.... ONE
> student succeeded - and it took ALL night.
>
> This year... well I have my fingers crossed that Michael might get
> something happening with Andres' QuteCsound in time.
>
> I'll let you know... But.. truly... it is sad that Windows beginners/
> users/curious (regardless of their experience level)
> can't ever really get started...
>
> maybe deep down... we don't want them to?  maybe... it makes us more
> special?
>
> I hope not.... because I want everyone to get it?  to get infected
> with the mind-opening and ear-expanding power of Csound
>
> -dB
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2009, at 2:24 PM, Stéphane Rollandin wrote:
>
>>> Plus, Csound isn't the only game in town, anymore;  It's hard
>>> enough to get
>>> people to give Csound a try with other great music tools such as
>>> MaxMSP,
>>> Supercollider, ChucK, Reaktor, Ableton Live, etc...  If we want to
>>> grow the
>>> Csound community, we have knock off this technical elite attitude,
>>> and start
>>> looking at Csound through the eyes of newbies.
>>
>> Csound is very different from the others you list. It is more low-
>> level, and more powerful IMO. What we would need is a friendly layer
>> above it exposing its power in a clean and simple way to newbies, or
>> simply composers that are not fond of assembly programming. To me it
>> would be another system altogether. Some attempts have been made,
>> from Blue to Cecilia or older stuff like PatchWork and many others.
>> These are/were all individual projects so they have limited scope
>> and lack the manpower required to build a Reaktor clone.
>>
>> So, to summarize, the technical elite attitude you regret mirrors
>> the actual technical nature of Csound itself. I don't think it can
>> be very much more newbie friendly.
>>
>> What I do believe is that a whole other project is needed to wrap
>> Csound within a full-blown composition system. But for this to
>> happen we need a group of motivated people, sharing a common vision
>> of what such a system should be. This is very challenging.
>>
>> Personnaly I have my own one-person thing, Surmulot, developed along
>> the lines I just exposed: it is very easy to install (just unzip the
>> archive), it has graphical front-ends for score, orchestra and
>> envelopes, a powerful textual front-end (Emacs), algorithmic tools,
>> high level languages for composing (Lisp and Smalltalk). But it
>> definitely is not friendly to newbies. Could be made so, maybe,
>> sometime...
>>
>>
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"


-- 
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe 
csound"= 

> No environment variables; no installer; different versions of Csound can 
> coexist without problems.

We have been asking for this for ages...

Stef

Dear all,
I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work with a pc
windows (xp-vista),
and i never had problems. I have installed many different versions, and both
float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again, but always
it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a great help
from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be really a
pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
(thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more experienced
users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.

Only for report, from a lovers of csound,

ciao, and thanks for all,

fran.
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Fran,
I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that suits  
you. And that you enjoy using it.
Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.

Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think it  
is best not to confuse them.

D
On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:

>
> Dear all,
> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work  
> with a pc
> windows (xp-vista),
> and i never had problems. I have installed many different versions,  
> and both
> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again, but  
> always
> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a  
> great help
> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be  
> really a
> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more  
> experienced
> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>
> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>
> ciao, and thanks for all,
>
> fran.
> -- 
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

________________________________________________
David Worrall.
- Experimental Polymedia:	  worrall.avatar.com.au
- Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
- Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au

asking for this, begging for this - and loosing Csounders all over the  
world - for ages.

sad.  so... incredibly sad... particularly given the fact that for  
those of us who survive the installation and hang
in there - it's a pretty incredible tool -

uugh.......

-dB

On Jul 2, 2009, at 6:25 PM, Stéphane Rollandin wrote:

>> No environment variables; no installer; different versions of  
>> Csound can coexist without problems.
>
> We have been asking for this for ages...
>
> Stef
>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

And it is interesting to note that Fran (welcome by the way - happy to  
have you on this adventure)
does not use a front-end really.

-dB


On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:

> Fran,
> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that  
> suits you. And that you enjoy using it.
> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>
> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think  
> it is best not to confuse them.
>
> D
> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>
>>
>> Dear all,
>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work  
>> with a pc
>> windows (xp-vista),
>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different versions,  
>> and both
>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again, but  
>> always
>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a  
>> great help
>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be  
>> really a
>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more  
>> experienced
>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>
>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>
>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>
>> fran.
>> -- 
>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>
> ________________________________________________
> David Worrall.
> - Experimental Polymedia:	  worrall.avatar.com.au
> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

Friends, i would like to re-suggest that Csound (for PC, Mac, Linux... 
whatever) should be built and packaged as a portable, no-installer-used 
application. Anything else is (and will be) causing problems, forever.

I first suggested this approach, two or three years ago, on a thread i 
opened right here, mostly influenced by the fact that Blue is being 
distributed this way and also by the very positive effect that this site 
(http://www.portableapps.com) had on my PC life. I thought "wow, that's 
exactly what Csound, should be: a "portableapp" as well".

Panos




Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
> And it is interesting to note that Fran (welcome by the way - happy to 
> have you on this adventure)
> does not use a front-end really.
> 
> -dB
> 
> 
> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
> 
>> Fran,
>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that suits 
>> you. And that you enjoy using it.
>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>
>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think it 
>> is best not to confuse them.
>>
>> D
>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work 
>>> with a pc
>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different versions, 
>>> and both
>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again, but 
>>> always
>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a 
>>> great help
>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be 
>>> really a
>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more 
>>> experienced
>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>>
>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>
>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>
>>> fran.
>>> -- 
>>> View this message in context: 
>>> http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body 
>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>> ________________________________________________
>> David Worrall.
>> - Experimental Polymedia:      worrall.avatar.com.au
>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body 
>> "unsubscribe csound"
> 
> 
> 
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe 
> csound"
> 

I don't feel too comfortable about PortableApps. It is recommended to 
install applications with administrator rights in a folder that is 
write-protected, and use them from then on with a user account that 
can't write in that directory. This prevents viruses and other malware 
from changing the executables. PortableApps throws this security 
mechanism out of the window. So I prefer that CSound doesn't become 
portable app.

Blue is not a portable app (at least not in that sense), because it puts 
data that can be modified by the user (like the instrument library) in 
the home directory of the user, while the executable is in the 
applications folder. And I always install Blue using its installer 
(don't know if it is possible without). But it is a lot easier to 
install than CSound (although installing CSound was easy - at least in 
my case).


Mark


Panos Katergiathis wrote:
> I first suggested this approach, two or three years ago, on a thread i 
> opened right here, mostly influenced by the fact that Blue is being 
> distributed this way and also by the very positive effect that this 
> site (http://www.portableapps.com) had on my PC life. I thought "wow, 
> that's exactly what Csound, should be: a "portableapp" as well".

OK.

On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest  
version of Csound running.

So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....

After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got it  
running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)

No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with this)

Here's what happens

Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*

First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to  
make some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....

Go to download

Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
- I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have never  
asked me about double or float.

OK - I will download both

I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...

But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/link,,,

Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS	
- cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial  
software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on my PC!
(i even paid for 1 of them)

Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..

OK... I go....


Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's that?   
I never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*

Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?

- but which version float or double?
Install


Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they  
haven't already)

- Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
but it says.... you can keep installing...

great.

Keep installing

then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....

NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...

Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't run  
without python?


Maybe it does...

Now to find Python?

And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...  I  
downloaded 6 or 7
Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no  
sound....

OK.

Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever one  
would install...

OK...

Then... install Csound again.

Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?

OK....

install Csound float

YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)

(((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  -  
because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth it....  
but....
I am about ready to give up...

Why?

Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui, blah  
blah blh.. - which door to I chose?

I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...

terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!

OK... I try winSound....

- it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are  
none to be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?

And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the  
desktop at alll....

OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks  
like a transport here and an editor....

BUT where are the orchestras?

So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing  
synth... but not in my speakers!

So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with Csound....

launch the version I installed

NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and (and  
why has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound in it...
It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????

Just confused....

So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and

It launches - AMAZING...

but where is the sound????

Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I select  
it... I push on the transport...

NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....

I choose the right hardware setup

I click on the transport................


Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound -  
because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you see)
AN Expert actually

And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at Berklee  
with the Dr. B.  guy....

Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that  
chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b  
and check the boxes so that
it uses the large number????


I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....

It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose wisely...
(True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per day  
on The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT Press in  
10 days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and tweeking  
things here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working  
version for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F.  
Richard Moore) .... and of course.....

And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where are  
the cool sounds!

I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound Book,  
Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to go...  
and what to do....

after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee let's  
say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after 2  
hours....
Toot 1 - a sine wave........................

Sorry...

EMPTY TRASH

UNINSTALL

MOVE ON....

-dB

a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS especially)  
version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh





On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:

> Fran,
> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that  
> suits you. And that you enjoy using it.
> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>
> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think  
> it is best not to confuse them.
>
> D
> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>
>>
>> Dear all,
>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work  
>> with a pc
>> windows (xp-vista),
>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different versions,  
>> and both
>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again, but  
>> always
>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a  
>> great help
>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be  
>> really a
>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more  
>> experienced
>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>
>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>
>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>
>> fran.
>> -- 
>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>
> ________________________________________________
> David Worrall.
> - Experimental Polymedia:	  worrall.avatar.com.au
> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

Perhaps then, write a step by step tutorial to installing csound on  
Windows.  Problem solved.

It's not my intention to be flippant, Dr. B., it's just that your  
ongoing criticism doesn't really help, and I fear it only serves to  
alienate those developers that have spent so many hours working on the  
software pro bono.

Here's the reality of the situation: csound is a programming  
language.  It's a great programming language, one we're all devoted  
to, and one which we all rightfully believe is one of the most  
powerful ever imagined for music and sound production.  We all use it  
in our work, and all have deep and profound feelings of fondness for  
it.  So no one questions your intentions in pursuing this topic, and  
certainly there is validity to your point.  However:

csound will never be easy.

Right?  I mean, it can't be.  Even if I were to show up and install  
csound for a friend, thereby completely bypassing for them the  
scenario you detailed in your email, they still wouldn't be able to do  
jack shit with it without ponying up a lot of time to learn how to use  
it.  More time than is required for most other music software (and  
certainly all commercial software).  And this is how we want it, isn't  
it?  Not because we mean to discourage users, but because we want a  
flexible and robust tool.  And the more flexible a computer language/ 
program is, the steeper the learning curve.  If csound were easier, it  
would be, well, Reason, or some other prefab tool which, while  
certainly handy and fun, ain't no csound.

So while I understand and am sympathetic to what you are saying, it's  
a bit misguided to hope that csound can be as simple and easy as a  
commercial music program.  They have different goals, and cater to  
different audiences.

I've often imagined that there exists some curve, similar to a supply  
and demand curve, for the ease of use of a software program.  The  
analogy would be this:  easy of use would be like the demand, and  
power of the program would be the supply.  If there is a tremendous  
amount of flexibility and power in a program/language, then the ease  
of use must necessarily be low, and vice versa.  Well designed  
software maximizes the ease of use for a given amount of power.   
Csound is extremely powerful.  And considering this, it's also pretty  
easy to use.  We might find opportunity for small improvements in ease  
of use, but there is an upward limit as long as we expect csound to  
remain as flexible and powerful as it is currently.

Your lambasting of the developers for not creating a csound capable of  
one-click-install for any first-year student with a crummy laptop  
might spring from the very best of intentions, but the effect it's  
having is one of lambasting the developers (and one in particular)  
whose enthusiasm for continuing to improve csound cannot be helped by  
your crude parable.  And I'd rather much like to keep them around and  
keep them focused on where their skills are best served: improving the  
mechanics of csound.

The best way to help the situation is to contribute code, but you  
might be in the same position I am in of not really having the chops  
necessary to assist in that capacity.  The next best thing would be to  
contribute documentation, such as a HowTo for installing csound on  
Windows.  I would imagine that for yourself the best thing you can do  
would be to continue that great work you currently perform: being a  
fierce advocate for the usage and improvement of csound.  Everyone  
here recognizes and appreciates your work in that respect.

But if I may offer a modicum of advice: find a manner of expressing  
this advocacy that doesn't come across as quite so insulting and  
demeaning to the developers of that program we both love so dearly.   
That will best serve your goals and the csound community at large.

Yours,

Julian Peterson



On Jul 5, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:

> OK.
>
> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest  
> version of Csound running.
>
> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
>
> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got  
> it running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
>
> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with this)
>
> Here's what happens
>
> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
>
> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to  
> make some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
>
> Go to download
>
> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have  
> never asked me about double or float.
>
> OK - I will download both
>
> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
>
> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/link,,,
>
> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS	
> - cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial  
> software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on my  
> PC!
> (i even paid for 1 of them)
>
> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
>
> OK... I go....
>
>
> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's  
> that?  I never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
>
> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
>
> - but which version float or double?
> Install
>
>
> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they  
> haven't already)
>
> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
> but it says.... you can keep installing...
>
> great.
>
> Keep installing
>
> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
>
> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
>
> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't  
> run without python?
>
>
> Maybe it does...
>
> Now to find Python?
>
> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...  I  
> downloaded 6 or 7
> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no  
> sound....
>
> OK.
>
> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever one  
> would install...
>
> OK...
>
> Then... install Csound again.
>
> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
>
> OK....
>
> install Csound float
>
> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
>
> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  -  
> because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth it....  
> but....
> I am about ready to give up...
>
> Why?
>
> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui, blah  
> blah blh.. - which door to I chose?
>
> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
>
> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
>
> OK... I try winSound....
>
> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are  
> none to be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?
>
> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the  
> desktop at alll....
>
> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks  
> like a transport here and an editor....
>
> BUT where are the orchestras?
>
> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing  
> synth... but not in my speakers!
>
> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with Csound....
>
> launch the version I installed
>
> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and  
> (and why has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound  
> in it...
> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
>
> Just confused....
>
> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
>
> It launches - AMAZING...
>
> but where is the sound????
>
> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I select  
> it... I push on the transport...
>
> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
>
> I choose the right hardware setup
>
> I click on the transport................
>
>
> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound -  
> because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you  
> see)
> AN Expert actually
>
> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at  
> Berklee with the Dr. B.  guy....
>
> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that  
> chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b  
> and check the boxes so that
> it uses the large number????
>
>
> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....
>
> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose  
> wisely...
> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per  
> day on The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT  
> Press in 10 days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and  
> tweeking things here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working  
> version for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F.  
> Richard Moore) .... and of course.....
>
> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where are  
> the cool sounds!
>
> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound  
> Book, Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to  
> go... and what to do....
>
> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee  
> let's say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after  
> 2 hours....
> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
>
> Sorry...
>
> EMPTY TRASH
>
> UNINSTALL
>
> MOVE ON....
>
> -dB
>
> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS especially)  
> version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
>
>> Fran,
>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that  
>> suits you. And that you enjoy using it.
>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>
>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think  
>> it is best not to confuse them.
>>
>> D
>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work  
>>> with a pc
>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different  
>>> versions, and both
>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again,  
>>> but always
>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a  
>>> great help
>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be  
>>> really a
>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more  
>>> experienced
>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>>
>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>
>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>
>>> fran.
>>> -- 
>>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>> ________________________________________________
>> David Worrall.
>> - Experimental Polymedia:	  worrall.avatar.com.au
>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

Not being critical at all Julian....
I am close with all the developers...  and they know how much I  
respect and love their work.
And also....... For many years now, I have been giving a great deal of  
support to many many csounders....


I was trying to be a little funny.  (but also somewhat serious...) in  
that... it did take that long... and there was that much trial and  
error)
and... most *professional* music software these days - and a ton of  
free stuff too - does not involve so much trial and error.

Audacity... just installed on the PC.  go to audacity.  choose the  
latest windows version... install... Boom...
- want to add some extra features to Audacity... a few notes here a  
link there... boom.... working.... minutes not hours... and what I can  
do
with the app, the minute I open it... a lot more than a sine wave.   
(and by the way toot1 is my sinewave right?  I am being critical of my  
work too here.

Note please that the first place I went was my own cSounds.com - and  
there one gets quite confused - by all the choices.

But NO.... a long step by step is NOT what we need.

We just need an installer works, and that has the right stuff there  
(some good demos, some good toots, some good examples of music  
(QuteCsound has all this now!)
- for the PC at for Sure - and for All platforms really... (and maybe  
we need to think about a developer's build that has more openness and  
cutting edge features
- also for all platforms - maybe we all build that from CVS even.)

Most of what I suggest is there for the Mac (thanks to Victor's work  
on that one) - yet it's true that students of mine still get snagged  
there too - but less often.
(actually, they get snagged for almost the same reason as the PC -  
with Cecilia installs, because there are so many versions.)


I wanted to share the experience that my students and colleagues bring  
to me - all the time...
and then they usually walk away...

There are a lot of ways of using Csound.  It continues to get better  
and better - and... more musical models make it much easier to work  
with.

Cecilia is an amazing example of this.......  anyone and everyone can  
get some serious Csound from that - right.

You are preaching to the choir here - about how dedicated some of us  
might be to Csound.

What I am sad about... (honestly sad) is.... the fact that we  
absolutely continue to make the language better and better - and the  
manuals, and the tutorials...
and we continue to come up with new and incredibly powerful ways to  
work with the language and make it work.... but... we are in so deep
and so happy with our quite advanced personal csoundLabs....  I have  
always wanted everyone to get Csound... that's what was behind The  
Csound Book.
(and that will be behind The Csound5 Book too! - so there will be  
chapters on MIDI and working with commercial DAWs, etc..  as well as  
the API, Python
OSC stuff.

Sadly, I will offer a Csound workshop to another group of 50 on July  
17.  I will show them ALL the cool things that commercial musician,  
film composers, game developers, iPhone developers, and serious  
composers, are doing with Csound... and I will take them through the  
process of installing it and getting it going - now on both the mac  
and the pc.... but... once again... 2 or three will get it to work on  
their PCs the next day - and there is no next day... I am not doing  
Csound the next day... so... they are
then on their own... and probably... looking elsewhere - because they  
got elsewhere to work!


-dB

PS - logic is no simple program.  Live is easy and intuitive, but not  
simple.  Max is not easy, but it is logical, seductive, inviting, and  
addicting and ALL the things that Csound should be!  (and is becoming  
for sure)

PPS... for less than $300, anyone can get a pretty incredible laptop -  
and if they are running windows on it, I hope that they ALL will run/ 
learn/use Csound, Cecilia, Audacity, etc. - and that they will ALL be  
easy to install - in inspiring right out of the box!

PPPPPPPS....  absolutely was not trying to insult anyone... and if I  
did... please please please accept my sincere apology......
  .
Dr. Richard Boulanger  -  rboulanger@berklee.edu



On Jul 6, 2009, at 12:41 AM, Julian Peterson wrote:

> Perhaps then, write a step by step tutorial to installing csound on  
> Windows.  Problem solved.
>
> It's not my intention to be flippant, Dr. B., it's just that your  
> ongoing criticism doesn't really help, and I fear it only serves to  
> alienate those developers that have spent so many hours working on  
> the software pro bono.
>
> Here's the reality of the situation: csound is a programming  
> language.  It's a great programming language, one we're all devoted  
> to, and one which we all rightfully believe is one of the most  
> powerful ever imagined for music and sound production.  We all use  
> it in our work, and all have deep and profound feelings of fondness  
> for it.  So no one questions your intentions in pursuing this topic,  
> and certainly there is validity to your point.  However:
>
> csound will never be easy.
>
> Right?  I mean, it can't be.  Even if I were to show up and install  
> csound for a friend, thereby completely bypassing for them the  
> scenario you detailed in your email, they still wouldn't be able to  
> do jack shit with it without ponying up a lot of time to learn how  
> to use it.  More time than is required for most other music software  
> (and certainly all commercial software).  And this is how we want  
> it, isn't it?  Not because we mean to discourage users, but because  
> we want a flexible and robust tool.  And the more flexible a  
> computer language/program is, the steeper the learning curve.  If  
> csound were easier, it would be, well, Reason, or some other prefab  
> tool which, while certainly handy and fun, ain't no csound.
>
> So while I understand and am sympathetic to what you are saying,  
> it's a bit misguided to hope that csound can be as simple and easy  
> as a commercial music program.  They have different goals, and cater  
> to different audiences.
>
> I've often imagined that there exists some curve, similar to a  
> supply and demand curve, for the ease of use of a software program.   
> The analogy would be this:  easy of use would be like the demand,  
> and power of the program would be the supply.  If there is a  
> tremendous amount of flexibility and power in a program/language,  
> then the ease of use must necessarily be low, and vice versa.  Well  
> designed software maximizes the ease of use for a given amount of  
> power.  Csound is extremely powerful.  And considering this, it's  
> also pretty easy to use.  We might find opportunity for small  
> improvements in ease of use, but there is an upward limit as long as  
> we expect csound to remain as flexible and powerful as it is  
> currently.
>
> Your lambasting of the developers for not creating a csound capable  
> of one-click-install for any first-year student with a crummy laptop  
> might spring from the very best of intentions, but the effect it's  
> having is one of lambasting the developers (and one in particular)  
> whose enthusiasm for continuing to improve csound cannot be helped  
> by your crude parable.  And I'd rather much like to keep them around  
> and keep them focused on where their skills are best served:  
> improving the mechanics of csound.
>
> The best way to help the situation is to contribute code, but you  
> might be in the same position I am in of not really having the chops  
> necessary to assist in that capacity.  The next best thing would be  
> to contribute documentation, such as a HowTo for installing csound  
> on Windows.  I would imagine that for yourself the best thing you  
> can do would be to continue that great work you currently perform:  
> being a fierce advocate for the usage and improvement of csound.   
> Everyone here recognizes and appreciates your work in that respect.
>
> But if I may offer a modicum of advice: find a manner of expressing  
> this advocacy that doesn't come across as quite so insulting and  
> demeaning to the developers of that program we both love so dearly.   
> That will best serve your goals and the csound community at large.
>
> Yours,
>
> Julian Peterson
>
>
>
> On Jul 5, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
>
>> OK.
>>
>> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest  
>> version of Csound running.
>>
>> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
>>
>> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got  
>> it running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
>>
>> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with  
>> this)
>>
>> Here's what happens
>>
>> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
>>
>> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
>> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to  
>> make some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
>> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
>>
>> Go to download
>>
>> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
>> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have  
>> never asked me about double or float.
>>
>> OK - I will download both
>>
>> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
>> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
>>
>> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/ 
>> link,,,
>>
>> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS	
>> - cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial  
>> software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on my  
>> PC!
>> (i even paid for 1 of them)
>>
>> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
>>
>> OK... I go....
>>
>>
>> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's  
>> that?  I never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
>>
>> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
>>
>> - but which version float or double?
>> Install
>>
>>
>> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they  
>> haven't already)
>>
>> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
>> but it says.... you can keep installing...
>>
>> great.
>>
>> Keep installing
>>
>> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
>>
>> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
>>
>> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't  
>> run without python?
>>
>>
>> Maybe it does...
>>
>> Now to find Python?
>>
>> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...   
>> I downloaded 6 or 7
>> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no  
>> sound....
>>
>> OK.
>>
>> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever  
>> one would install...
>>
>> OK...
>>
>> Then... install Csound again.
>>
>> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
>> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
>>
>> OK....
>>
>> install Csound float
>>
>> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
>>
>> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  -  
>> because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth  
>> it.... but....
>> I am about ready to give up...
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui,  
>> blah blah blh.. - which door to I chose?
>>
>> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
>>
>> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
>>
>> OK... I try winSound....
>>
>> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are  
>> none to be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?
>>
>> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the  
>> desktop at alll....
>>
>> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks  
>> like a transport here and an editor....
>>
>> BUT where are the orchestras?
>>
>> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing  
>> synth... but not in my speakers!
>>
>> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with  
>> Csound....
>>
>> launch the version I installed
>>
>> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and  
>> (and why has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound  
>> in it...
>> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
>>
>> Just confused....
>>
>> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
>>
>> It launches - AMAZING...
>>
>> but where is the sound????
>>
>> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I  
>> select it... I push on the transport...
>>
>> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
>>
>> I choose the right hardware setup
>>
>> I click on the transport................
>>
>>
>> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound -  
>> because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you  
>> see)
>> AN Expert actually
>>
>> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at  
>> Berklee with the Dr. B.  guy....
>>
>> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that  
>> chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b  
>> and check the boxes so that
>> it uses the large number????
>>
>>
>> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....
>>
>> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose  
>> wisely...
>> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per  
>> day on The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT  
>> Press in 10 days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and  
>> tweeking things here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
>> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working  
>> version for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
>> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F.  
>> Richard Moore) .... and of course.....
>>
>> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where  
>> are the cool sounds!
>>
>> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound  
>> Book, Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to  
>> go... and what to do....
>>
>> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee  
>> let's say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after  
>> 2 hours....
>> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
>>
>> Sorry...
>>
>> EMPTY TRASH
>>
>> UNINSTALL
>>
>> MOVE ON....
>>
>> -dB
>>
>> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS  
>> especially) version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
>>
>>> Fran,
>>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that  
>>> suits you. And that you enjoy using it.
>>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>>
>>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think  
>>> it is best not to confuse them.
>>>
>>> D
>>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear all,
>>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i  
>>>> work with a pc
>>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different  
>>>> versions, and both
>>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again,  
>>>> but always
>>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a  
>>>> great help
>>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would  
>>>> be really a
>>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more  
>>>> experienced
>>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>>>
>>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>>
>>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>>
>>>> fran.
>>>> -- 
>>>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________
>>> David Worrall.
>>> - Experimental Polymedia:	  worrall.avatar.com.au
>>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

Thanks, Dr. B.  I understand your position much better from this last  
email.  I'm sorry if I mistook your tone from before.

J



On Jul 5, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:

> Not being critical at all Julian....
> I am close with all the developers...  and they know how much I  
> respect and love their work.
> And also....... For many years now, I have been giving a great deal  
> of support to many many csounders....
>
>
> I was trying to be a little funny.  (but also somewhat serious...)  
> in that... it did take that long... and there was that much trial  
> and error)
> and... most *professional* music software these days - and a ton of  
> free stuff too - does not involve so much trial and error.
>
> Audacity... just installed on the PC.  go to audacity.  choose the  
> latest windows version... install... Boom...
> - want to add some extra features to Audacity... a few notes here a  
> link there... boom.... working.... minutes not hours... and what I  
> can do
> with the app, the minute I open it... a lot more than a sine wave.   
> (and by the way toot1 is my sinewave right?  I am being critical of  
> my work too here.
>
> Note please that the first place I went was my own cSounds.com - and  
> there one gets quite confused - by all the choices.
>
> But NO.... a long step by step is NOT what we need.
>
> We just need an installer works, and that has the right stuff there  
> (some good demos, some good toots, some good examples of music  
> (QuteCsound has all this now!)
> - for the PC at for Sure - and for All platforms really... (and  
> maybe we need to think about a developer's build that has more  
> openness and cutting edge features
> - also for all platforms - maybe we all build that from CVS even.)
>
> Most of what I suggest is there for the Mac (thanks to Victor's work  
> on that one) - yet it's true that students of mine still get snagged  
> there too - but less often.
> (actually, they get snagged for almost the same reason as the PC -  
> with Cecilia installs, because there are so many versions.)
>
>
> I wanted to share the experience that my students and colleagues  
> bring to me - all the time...
> and then they usually walk away...
>
> There are a lot of ways of using Csound.  It continues to get better  
> and better - and... more musical models make it much easier to work  
> with.
>
> Cecilia is an amazing example of this.......  anyone and everyone  
> can get some serious Csound from that - right.
>
> You are preaching to the choir here - about how dedicated some of us  
> might be to Csound.
>
> What I am sad about... (honestly sad) is.... the fact that we  
> absolutely continue to make the language better and better - and the  
> manuals, and the tutorials...
> and we continue to come up with new and incredibly powerful ways to  
> work with the language and make it work.... but... we are in so deep
> and so happy with our quite advanced personal csoundLabs....  I have  
> always wanted everyone to get Csound... that's what was behind The  
> Csound Book.
> (and that will be behind The Csound5 Book too! - so there will be  
> chapters on MIDI and working with commercial DAWs, etc..  as well as  
> the API, Python
> OSC stuff.
>
> Sadly, I will offer a Csound workshop to another group of 50 on July  
> 17.  I will show them ALL the cool things that commercial musician,  
> film composers, game developers, iPhone developers, and serious  
> composers, are doing with Csound... and I will take them through the  
> process of installing it and getting it going - now on both the mac  
> and the pc.... but... once again... 2 or three will get it to work  
> on their PCs the next day - and there is no next day... I am not  
> doing Csound the next day... so... they are
> then on their own... and probably... looking elsewhere - because  
> they got elsewhere to work!
>
>
> -dB
>
> PS - logic is no simple program.  Live is easy and intuitive, but  
> not simple.  Max is not easy, but it is logical, seductive,  
> inviting, and addicting and ALL the things that Csound should be!   
> (and is becoming for sure)
>
> PPS... for less than $300, anyone can get a pretty incredible laptop  
> - and if they are running windows on it, I hope that they ALL will  
> run/learn/use Csound, Cecilia, Audacity, etc. - and that they will  
> ALL be easy to install - in inspiring right out of the box!
>
> PPPPPPPS....  absolutely was not trying to insult anyone... and if I  
> did... please please please accept my sincere apology......
> .
> Dr. Richard Boulanger  -  rboulanger@berklee.edu
>
>
>
> On Jul 6, 2009, at 12:41 AM, Julian Peterson wrote:
>
>> Perhaps then, write a step by step tutorial to installing csound on  
>> Windows.  Problem solved.
>>
>> It's not my intention to be flippant, Dr. B., it's just that your  
>> ongoing criticism doesn't really help, and I fear it only serves to  
>> alienate those developers that have spent so many hours working on  
>> the software pro bono.
>>
>> Here's the reality of the situation: csound is a programming  
>> language.  It's a great programming language, one we're all devoted  
>> to, and one which we all rightfully believe is one of the most  
>> powerful ever imagined for music and sound production.  We all use  
>> it in our work, and all have deep and profound feelings of fondness  
>> for it.  So no one questions your intentions in pursuing this  
>> topic, and certainly there is validity to your point.  However:
>>
>> csound will never be easy.
>>
>> Right?  I mean, it can't be.  Even if I were to show up and install  
>> csound for a friend, thereby completely bypassing for them the  
>> scenario you detailed in your email, they still wouldn't be able to  
>> do jack shit with it without ponying up a lot of time to learn how  
>> to use it.  More time than is required for most other music  
>> software (and certainly all commercial software).  And this is how  
>> we want it, isn't it?  Not because we mean to discourage users, but  
>> because we want a flexible and robust tool.  And the more flexible  
>> a computer language/program is, the steeper the learning curve.  If  
>> csound were easier, it would be, well, Reason, or some other prefab  
>> tool which, while certainly handy and fun, ain't no csound.
>>
>> So while I understand and am sympathetic to what you are saying,  
>> it's a bit misguided to hope that csound can be as simple and easy  
>> as a commercial music program.  They have different goals, and  
>> cater to different audiences.
>>
>> I've often imagined that there exists some curve, similar to a  
>> supply and demand curve, for the ease of use of a software  
>> program.  The analogy would be this:  easy of use would be like the  
>> demand, and power of the program would be the supply.  If there is  
>> a tremendous amount of flexibility and power in a program/language,  
>> then the ease of use must necessarily be low, and vice versa.  Well  
>> designed software maximizes the ease of use for a given amount of  
>> power.  Csound is extremely powerful.  And considering this, it's  
>> also pretty easy to use.  We might find opportunity for small  
>> improvements in ease of use, but there is an upward limit as long  
>> as we expect csound to remain as flexible and powerful as it is  
>> currently.
>>
>> Your lambasting of the developers for not creating a csound capable  
>> of one-click-install for any first-year student with a crummy  
>> laptop might spring from the very best of intentions, but the  
>> effect it's having is one of lambasting the developers (and one in  
>> particular) whose enthusiasm for continuing to improve csound  
>> cannot be helped by your crude parable.  And I'd rather much like  
>> to keep them around and keep them focused on where their skills are  
>> best served: improving the mechanics of csound.
>>
>> The best way to help the situation is to contribute code, but you  
>> might be in the same position I am in of not really having the  
>> chops necessary to assist in that capacity.  The next best thing  
>> would be to contribute documentation, such as a HowTo for  
>> installing csound on Windows.  I would imagine that for yourself  
>> the best thing you can do would be to continue that great work you  
>> currently perform: being a fierce advocate for the usage and  
>> improvement of csound.  Everyone here recognizes and appreciates  
>> your work in that respect.
>>
>> But if I may offer a modicum of advice: find a manner of expressing  
>> this advocacy that doesn't come across as quite so insulting and  
>> demeaning to the developers of that program we both love so  
>> dearly.  That will best serve your goals and the csound community  
>> at large.
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>> Julian Peterson
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 5, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
>>
>>> OK.
>>>
>>> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest  
>>> version of Csound running.
>>>
>>> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
>>>
>>> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got  
>>> it running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
>>>
>>> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with  
>>> this)
>>>
>>> Here's what happens
>>>
>>> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
>>>
>>> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
>>> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to  
>>> make some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
>>> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
>>>
>>> Go to download
>>>
>>> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
>>> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have  
>>> never asked me about double or float.
>>>
>>> OK - I will download both
>>>
>>> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
>>> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
>>>
>>> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/ 
>>> link,,,
>>>
>>> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS	
>>> - cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No  
>>> commercial software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial  
>>> program on my PC!
>>> (i even paid for 1 of them)
>>>
>>> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
>>>
>>> OK... I go....
>>>
>>>
>>> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's  
>>> that?  I never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
>>>
>>> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
>>>
>>> - but which version float or double?
>>> Install
>>>
>>>
>>> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they  
>>> haven't already)
>>>
>>> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
>>> but it says.... you can keep installing...
>>>
>>> great.
>>>
>>> Keep installing
>>>
>>> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
>>>
>>> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
>>>
>>> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't  
>>> run without python?
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe it does...
>>>
>>> Now to find Python?
>>>
>>> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...   
>>> I downloaded 6 or 7
>>> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no  
>>> sound....
>>>
>>> OK.
>>>
>>> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever  
>>> one would install...
>>>
>>> OK...
>>>
>>> Then... install Csound again.
>>>
>>> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
>>> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
>>>
>>> OK....
>>>
>>> install Csound float
>>>
>>> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
>>>
>>> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  -  
>>> because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth  
>>> it.... but....
>>> I am about ready to give up...
>>>
>>> Why?
>>>
>>> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui,  
>>> blah blah blh.. - which door to I chose?
>>>
>>> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
>>>
>>> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
>>>
>>> OK... I try winSound....
>>>
>>> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are  
>>> none to be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed  
>>> them?
>>>
>>> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the  
>>> desktop at alll....
>>>
>>> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks  
>>> like a transport here and an editor....
>>>
>>> BUT where are the orchestras?
>>>
>>> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing  
>>> synth... but not in my speakers!
>>>
>>> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with  
>>> Csound....
>>>
>>> launch the version I installed
>>>
>>> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and  
>>> (and why has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO  
>>> Csound in it...
>>> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
>>>
>>> Just confused....
>>>
>>> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
>>>
>>> It launches - AMAZING...
>>>
>>> but where is the sound????
>>>
>>> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I  
>>> select it... I push on the transport...
>>>
>>> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
>>>
>>> I choose the right hardware setup
>>>
>>> I click on the transport................
>>>
>>>
>>> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound -  
>>> because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy  
>>> you see)
>>> AN Expert actually
>>>
>>> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at  
>>> Berklee with the Dr. B.  guy....
>>>
>>> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that  
>>> chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and - 
>>> b and check the boxes so that
>>> it uses the large number????
>>>
>>>
>>> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no  
>>> lie... .....
>>>
>>> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose  
>>> wisely...
>>> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per  
>>> day on The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT  
>>> Press in 10 days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and  
>>> tweeking things here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
>>> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working  
>>> version for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
>>> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F.  
>>> Richard Moore) .... and of course.....
>>>
>>> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where  
>>> are the cool sounds!
>>>
>>> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound  
>>> Book, Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where  
>>> to go... and what to do....
>>>
>>> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee  
>>> let's say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and  
>>> after 2 hours....
>>> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
>>>
>>> Sorry...
>>>
>>> EMPTY TRASH
>>>
>>> UNINSTALL
>>>
>>> MOVE ON....
>>>
>>> -dB
>>>
>>> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS  
>>> especially) version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
>>>
>>>> Fran,
>>>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that  
>>>> suits you. And that you enjoy using it.
>>>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>>>
>>>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I  
>>>> think it is best not to confuse them.
>>>>
>>>> D
>>>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i  
>>>>> work with a pc
>>>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different  
>>>>> versions, and both
>>>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again,  
>>>>> but always
>>>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with  
>>>>> a great help
>>>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would  
>>>>> be really a
>>>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more  
>>>>> experienced
>>>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>>>
>>>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>>>
>>>>> fran.
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>> David Worrall.
>>>> - Experimental Polymedia:	  worrall.avatar.com.au
>>>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>>>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
> ... a lot more than a sine wave.  (and by the way toot1 is my sinewave 
> right?  I am being critical of my work too here.

I actually think it's ideal for a first lesson, because it is really a 
foundation. A bit like a program that prints "Hello world!", which is 
the first example in many programming languages - not impressive at all, 
but good as a first lesson. I think users understand that this is just 
the begin.

But Michael Gogins' tutorial starts by showing how to play an existing 
example, by letting new users play Xanadu, that sure makes a good first 
impression. Shortly after that it teaches how to create a sine wave. And 
it's a great introduction to CSound in all.

Unfortunately it took me some time before I found the tutorial by MG 
after I installed CSound, because I first looked in the doc folder, 
where there are two huge pdf's that are of no use to a beginner, they 
make you think CSound is for Einsteins. Then I found the documentation 
in the folder doc\manual, and as hobby web developer I was lucky to know 
that you better start with index.html, and then I could finally start 
learning CSound. The C++ library Boost has a index.html file in the top 
folder of their distribution, which is simply a redirect to the main 
page of the documentation, it would be nice to have that.

-- 
  Mark
  _________________________________________
  When you get lemons, you make lemonade.
  When you get hardware, you make software.

Julian,

I took and take your points to heart too... and very much appreciate  
them....  I was being a little too *cute* for sure - and
I am sorry that i went a bit over the line - to make a point.  Surely  
I offended some - and for that I am sorry.

This is an amazing community - of incredibly dedicated volunteers,  
who, through their 22+ years of generous contributions
to this cause,  have made a huge difference in the world of computer  
music - of music.

There is no way to sufficiently express the gratitude that I feel.   
All I can do, as a teacher, a student and a friend, is to share their  
gift
of time and talent with as many as I can - and I do...  three  
semesters a year for the past 23 years - 6 to 12 students a semester.
(one starfish at a time.)

-drB


On Jul 6, 2009, at 2:09 AM, Julian Peterson wrote:

> Thanks, Dr. B.  I understand your position much better from this  
> last email.  I'm sorry if I mistook your tone from before.
>
> J
>
>
>
> On Jul 5, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
>
>> Not being critical at all Julian....
>> I am close with all the developers...  and they know how much I  
>> respect and love their work.
>> And also....... For many years now, I have been giving a great deal  
>> of support to many many csounders....
>>
>>
>> I was trying to be a little funny.  (but also somewhat serious...)  
>> in that... it did take that long... and there was that much trial  
>> and error)
>> and... most *professional* music software these days - and a ton of  
>> free stuff too - does not involve so much trial and error.
>>
>> Audacity... just installed on the PC.  go to audacity.  choose the  
>> latest windows version... install... Boom...
>> - want to add some extra features to Audacity... a few notes here a  
>> link there... boom.... working.... minutes not hours... and what I  
>> can do
>> with the app, the minute I open it... a lot more than a sine wave.   
>> (and by the way toot1 is my sinewave right?  I am being critical of  
>> my work too here.
>>
>> Note please that the first place I went was my own cSounds.com -  
>> and there one gets quite confused - by all the choices.
>>
>> But NO.... a long step by step is NOT what we need.
>>
>> We just need an installer works, and that has the right stuff there  
>> (some good demos, some good toots, some good examples of music  
>> (QuteCsound has all this now!)
>> - for the PC at for Sure - and for All platforms really... (and  
>> maybe we need to think about a developer's build that has more  
>> openness and cutting edge features
>> - also for all platforms - maybe we all build that from CVS even.)
>>
>> Most of what I suggest is there for the Mac (thanks to Victor's  
>> work on that one) - yet it's true that students of mine still get  
>> snagged there too - but less often.
>> (actually, they get snagged for almost the same reason as the PC -  
>> with Cecilia installs, because there are so many versions.)
>>
>>
>> I wanted to share the experience that my students and colleagues  
>> bring to me - all the time...
>> and then they usually walk away...
>>
>> There are a lot of ways of using Csound.  It continues to get  
>> better and better - and... more musical models make it much easier  
>> to work with.
>>
>> Cecilia is an amazing example of this.......  anyone and everyone  
>> can get some serious Csound from that - right.
>>
>> You are preaching to the choir here - about how dedicated some of  
>> us might be to Csound.
>>
>> What I am sad about... (honestly sad) is.... the fact that we  
>> absolutely continue to make the language better and better - and  
>> the manuals, and the tutorials...
>> and we continue to come up with new and incredibly powerful ways to  
>> work with the language and make it work.... but... we are in so deep
>> and so happy with our quite advanced personal csoundLabs....  I  
>> have always wanted everyone to get Csound... that's what was behind  
>> The Csound Book.
>> (and that will be behind The Csound5 Book too! - so there will be  
>> chapters on MIDI and working with commercial DAWs, etc..  as well  
>> as the API, Python
>> OSC stuff.
>>
>> Sadly, I will offer a Csound workshop to another group of 50 on  
>> July 17.  I will show them ALL the cool things that commercial  
>> musician, film composers, game developers, iPhone developers, and  
>> serious composers, are doing with Csound... and I will take them  
>> through the process of installing it and getting it going - now on  
>> both the mac and the pc.... but... once again... 2 or three will  
>> get it to work on their PCs the next day - and there is no next  
>> day... I am not doing Csound the next day... so... they are
>> then on their own... and probably... looking elsewhere - because  
>> they got elsewhere to work!
>>
>>
>> -dB
>>
>> PS - logic is no simple program.  Live is easy and intuitive, but  
>> not simple.  Max is not easy, but it is logical, seductive,  
>> inviting, and addicting and ALL the things that Csound should be!   
>> (and is becoming for sure)
>>
>> PPS... for less than $300, anyone can get a pretty incredible  
>> laptop - and if they are running windows on it, I hope that they  
>> ALL will run/learn/use Csound, Cecilia, Audacity, etc. - and that  
>> they will ALL be easy to install - in inspiring right out of the box!
>>
>> PPPPPPPS....  absolutely was not trying to insult anyone... and if  
>> I did... please please please accept my sincere apology......
>> .
>> Dr. Richard Boulanger  -  rboulanger@berklee.edu
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 6, 2009, at 12:41 AM, Julian Peterson wrote:
>>
>>> Perhaps then, write a step by step tutorial to installing csound  
>>> on Windows.  Problem solved.
>>>
>>> It's not my intention to be flippant, Dr. B., it's just that your  
>>> ongoing criticism doesn't really help, and I fear it only serves  
>>> to alienate those developers that have spent so many hours working  
>>> on the software pro bono.
>>>
>>> Here's the reality of the situation: csound is a programming  
>>> language.  It's a great programming language, one we're all  
>>> devoted to, and one which we all rightfully believe is one of the  
>>> most powerful ever imagined for music and sound production.  We  
>>> all use it in our work, and all have deep and profound feelings of  
>>> fondness for it.  So no one questions your intentions in pursuing  
>>> this topic, and certainly there is validity to your point.  However:
>>>
>>> csound will never be easy.
>>>
>>> Right?  I mean, it can't be.  Even if I were to show up and  
>>> install csound for a friend, thereby completely bypassing for them  
>>> the scenario you detailed in your email, they still wouldn't be  
>>> able to do jack shit with it without ponying up a lot of time to  
>>> learn how to use it.  More time than is required for most other  
>>> music software (and certainly all commercial software).  And this  
>>> is how we want it, isn't it?  Not because we mean to discourage  
>>> users, but because we want a flexible and robust tool.  And the  
>>> more flexible a computer language/program is, the steeper the  
>>> learning curve.  If csound were easier, it would be, well, Reason,  
>>> or some other prefab tool which, while certainly handy and fun,  
>>> ain't no csound.
>>>
>>> So while I understand and am sympathetic to what you are saying,  
>>> it's a bit misguided to hope that csound can be as simple and easy  
>>> as a commercial music program.  They have different goals, and  
>>> cater to different audiences.
>>>
>>> I've often imagined that there exists some curve, similar to a  
>>> supply and demand curve, for the ease of use of a software  
>>> program.  The analogy would be this:  easy of use would be like  
>>> the demand, and power of the program would be the supply.  If  
>>> there is a tremendous amount of flexibility and power in a program/ 
>>> language, then the ease of use must necessarily be low, and vice  
>>> versa.  Well designed software maximizes the ease of use for a  
>>> given amount of power.  Csound is extremely powerful.  And  
>>> considering this, it's also pretty easy to use.  We might find  
>>> opportunity for small improvements in ease of use, but there is an  
>>> upward limit as long as we expect csound to remain as flexible and  
>>> powerful as it is currently.
>>>
>>> Your lambasting of the developers for not creating a csound  
>>> capable of one-click-install for any first-year student with a  
>>> crummy laptop might spring from the very best of intentions, but  
>>> the effect it's having is one of lambasting the developers (and  
>>> one in particular) whose enthusiasm for continuing to improve  
>>> csound cannot be helped by your crude parable.  And I'd rather  
>>> much like to keep them around and keep them focused on where their  
>>> skills are best served: improving the mechanics of csound.
>>>
>>> The best way to help the situation is to contribute code, but you  
>>> might be in the same position I am in of not really having the  
>>> chops necessary to assist in that capacity.  The next best thing  
>>> would be to contribute documentation, such as a HowTo for  
>>> installing csound on Windows.  I would imagine that for yourself  
>>> the best thing you can do would be to continue that great work you  
>>> currently perform: being a fierce advocate for the usage and  
>>> improvement of csound.  Everyone here recognizes and appreciates  
>>> your work in that respect.
>>>
>>> But if I may offer a modicum of advice: find a manner of  
>>> expressing this advocacy that doesn't come across as quite so  
>>> insulting and demeaning to the developers of that program we both  
>>> love so dearly.  That will best serve your goals and the csound  
>>> community at large.
>>>
>>> Yours,
>>>
>>> Julian Peterson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 5, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
>>>
>>>> OK.
>>>>
>>>> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the  
>>>> latest version of Csound running.
>>>>
>>>> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
>>>>
>>>> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally  
>>>> got it running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
>>>>
>>>> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with  
>>>> this)
>>>>
>>>> Here's what happens
>>>>
>>>> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
>>>>
>>>> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
>>>> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want  
>>>> to make some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
>>>> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
>>>>
>>>> Go to download
>>>>
>>>> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
>>>> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have  
>>>> never asked me about double or float.
>>>>
>>>> OK - I will download both
>>>>
>>>> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
>>>> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
>>>>
>>>> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/ 
>>>> link,,,
>>>>
>>>> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS	
>>>> - cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No  
>>>> commercial software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial  
>>>> program on my PC!
>>>> (i even paid for 1 of them)
>>>>
>>>> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
>>>>
>>>> OK... I go....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's  
>>>> that?  I never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
>>>>
>>>> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
>>>>
>>>> - but which version float or double?
>>>> Install
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they  
>>>> haven't already)
>>>>
>>>> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
>>>> but it says.... you can keep installing...
>>>>
>>>> great.
>>>>
>>>> Keep installing
>>>>
>>>> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
>>>>
>>>> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
>>>>
>>>> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't  
>>>> run without python?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe it does...
>>>>
>>>> Now to find Python?
>>>>
>>>> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of  
>>>> Python...  I downloaded 6 or 7
>>>> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no  
>>>> sound....
>>>>
>>>> OK.
>>>>
>>>> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever  
>>>> one would install...
>>>>
>>>> OK...
>>>>
>>>> Then... install Csound again.
>>>>
>>>> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
>>>> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
>>>>
>>>> OK....
>>>>
>>>> install Csound float
>>>>
>>>> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
>>>>
>>>> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))   
>>>> - because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth  
>>>> it.... but....
>>>> I am about ready to give up...
>>>>
>>>> Why?
>>>>
>>>> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui,  
>>>> blah blah blh.. - which door to I chose?
>>>>
>>>> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
>>>>
>>>> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
>>>>
>>>> OK... I try winSound....
>>>>
>>>> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there  
>>>> are none to be found - and how would a beginner know that he  
>>>> needed them?
>>>>
>>>> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find  
>>>> the desktop at alll....
>>>>
>>>> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ...  
>>>> looks like a transport here and an editor....
>>>>
>>>> BUT where are the orchestras?
>>>>
>>>> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most  
>>>> amazing synth... but not in my speakers!
>>>>
>>>> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with  
>>>> Csound....
>>>>
>>>> launch the version I installed
>>>>
>>>> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and  
>>>> (and why has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO  
>>>> Csound in it...
>>>> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
>>>>
>>>> Just confused....
>>>>
>>>> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
>>>>
>>>> It launches - AMAZING...
>>>>
>>>> but where is the sound????
>>>>
>>>> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I  
>>>> select it... I push on the transport...
>>>>
>>>> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
>>>>
>>>> I choose the right hardware setup
>>>>
>>>> I click on the transport................
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound  
>>>> - because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy  
>>>> you see)
>>>> AN Expert actually
>>>>
>>>> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at  
>>>> Berklee with the Dr. B.  guy....
>>>>
>>>> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all  
>>>> that chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B  
>>>> and -b and check the boxes so that
>>>> it uses the large number????
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no  
>>>> lie... .....
>>>>
>>>> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose  
>>>> wisely...
>>>> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per  
>>>> day on The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT  
>>>> Press in 10 days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and  
>>>> tweeking things here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
>>>> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working  
>>>> version for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
>>>> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F.  
>>>> Richard Moore) .... and of course.....
>>>>
>>>> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where  
>>>> are the cool sounds!
>>>>
>>>> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound  
>>>> Book, Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where  
>>>> to go... and what to do....
>>>>
>>>> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee  
>>>> let's say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and  
>>>> after 2 hours....
>>>> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
>>>>
>>>> Sorry...
>>>>
>>>> EMPTY TRASH
>>>>
>>>> UNINSTALL
>>>>
>>>> MOVE ON....
>>>>
>>>> -dB
>>>>
>>>> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS  
>>>> especially) version of Csound5 for Windows!!   
>>>> uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Fran,
>>>>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that  
>>>>> suits you. And that you enjoy using it.
>>>>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I  
>>>>> think it is best not to confuse them.
>>>>>
>>>>> D
>>>>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i  
>>>>>> work with a pc
>>>>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>>>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different  
>>>>>> versions, and both
>>>>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again,  
>>>>>> but always
>>>>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>>>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with  
>>>>>> a great help
>>>>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would  
>>>>>> be really a
>>>>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>>>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more  
>>>>>> experienced
>>>>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I  
>>>>>> suppose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> fran.
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>>>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at  
>>>>>> Nabble.com.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>>>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>> David Worrall.
>>>>> - Experimental Polymedia:	  worrall.avatar.com.au
>>>>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>>>>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

  

      As a relatively recent (a few years) beginner to the realm of Csound, I would like to make a suggestion regarding the csounds.com website issue that Dr. B brings up.  I agree with his discovery that the first page is not exactly aimed at the beginner. I think it might help to have some sort of "Get Started With Csound" link that is highly visible.  The link would then go to a page that has links to one version of Csound for each OS, and one version of Python.  I think we should restrict the beginner's choice as much as possible.  Take out the choice of float or double, and let them make that choice when they are more familiar with the world of csound.  I also think that the Csound we offer to beginner's should be the core Csound that has recently been discussed( This could also eliminate the need for python) .  Something like a demo version, with a note telling the beginner that they can get more out of Csound later if they choose.  I also think
 the beginner version of Csound should include QuteCsound (The appropriate version to match the only Csound we offer them).  I only recently checked out QuteCsound, and I think it is highly accessible and user-friendly.  I never found that with winsound or csound5gui, and wound up using WinXound instead.  
      
      Basically my main point is that I think we need to create a portal for the beginners to be funnelled through that is limited in scope so as not to confuse them in the beginning.  

                                                Mark 


----- Original Message ----
From: Dr. Richard Boulanger 
To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 11:07:59 PM
Subject: [Csnd] Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple Installer/Build for Windowswith QuteCsound (was: Building Python API

OK.

On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest version of Csound running.

So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....

After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got it running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)

No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with this)

Here's what happens

Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*

First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to make some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....

Go to download

Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
- I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have never asked me about double or float.

OK - I will download both

I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...

But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/link,,,

Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS    
- cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on my PC!
(i even paid for 1 of them)

Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..

OK... I go....


Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's that?  I never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*

Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?

- but which version float or double?
Install


Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they haven't already)

- Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
but it says.... you can keep installing...

great.

Keep installing

then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....

NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...

Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't run without python?


Maybe it does...

Now to find Python?

And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...  I downloaded 6 or 7
Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no sound....

OK.

Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever one would install...

OK...

Then... install Csound again.

Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?

OK....

install Csound float

YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)

(((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  - because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth it.... but....
I am about ready to give up...

Why?

Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui, blah blah blh.. - which door to I chose?

I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...

terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!

OK... I try winSound....

- it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are none to be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?

And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the desktop at alll....

OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks like a transport here and an editor....

BUT where are the orchestras?

So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing synth... but not in my speakers!

So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with Csound....

launch the version I installed

NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and (and why has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound in it...
It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????

Just confused....

So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and

It launches - AMAZING...

but where is the sound????

Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I select it... I push on the transport...

NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....

I choose the right hardware setup

I click on the transport................


Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound - because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you see)
AN Expert actually

And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at Berklee with the Dr. B.  guy....

Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b and check the boxes so that
it uses the large number????


I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....

It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose wisely...
(True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per day on The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT Press in 10 days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and tweeking things here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working version for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F. Richard Moore) .... and of course.....

And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where are the cool sounds!

I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound Book, Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to go... and what to do....

after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee let's say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after 2 hours....
Toot 1 - a sine wave........................

Sorry...

EMPTY TRASH

UNINSTALL

MOVE ON....

-dB

a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS especially) version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh





On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:

> Fran,
> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that suits you. And that you enjoy using it.
> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
> 
> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think it is best not to confuse them.
> 
> D
> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Dear all,
>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work with a pc
>> windows (xp-vista),
>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different versions, and both
>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again, but always
>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a great help
>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be really a
>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more experienced
>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>> 
>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>> 
>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>> 
>> fran.
>> --View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
> 
> ________________________________________________
> David Worrall.
> - Experimental Polymedia:      worrall.avatar.com.au
> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"



Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"



      

Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now!

f1 0 1024 10 1 0
...
instr 1
aout oscili 25000, 440, 1
outs aout, aout
endin
...
i1 0 4

Not too bad, is it? Intuitive, no, but that's four lines of code and a few simple concepts.

Gets even easier with a frontend.

Some (not much) of CSound *is* easy, and some of it *could* be. Installation certainly falls into the latter category.

I agree with Dr. B. that it should be easy for a new user to download and install CSound, and then *intuitively* explore, compile, and hear the results of any number of examples. This is almost impossible without a frontend, and is why I'm all for bundling CSound with something that breaks the ice for a new user. The more familiar and intuitive, the better. Bundling some toots in to, say, the help menu would be even better. In Windows, Ideally:

1. Run install package, no hickups.
2. Go to Program menu, click on CSound Editor shortcut
3. immediately get intro dialog box explaining where example examples are, or asking if they want them opened.
4. One-click to compile and listen to csd.

Learning all the nuances and details of what CSound has to offer will always be a learning experience for a new user, and will require effort and patience on their part. I just hate to think that, on top of having to learn CSound, they have to wrestle with unrelated issues like Python compatability, trying to find easy examples on the net, etc.

Michael Bechard



----- Original Message ----
From: Julian Peterson 
To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 11:41:47 PM
Subject: [Csnd] Re: Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple Installer/Build for Windowswith QuteCsound (was: Building Python API

Perhaps then, write a step by step tutorial to installing csound on Windows.  Problem solved.

It's not my intention to be flippant, Dr. B., it's just that your ongoing criticism doesn't really help, and I fear it only serves to alienate those developers that have spent so many hours working on the software pro bono.

Here's the reality of the situation: csound is a programming language.  It's a great programming language, one we're all devoted to, and one which we all rightfully believe is one of the most powerful ever imagined for music and sound production.  We all use it in our work, and all have deep and profound feelings of fondness for it.  So no one questions your intentions in pursuing this topic, and certainly there is validity to your point.  However:

csound will never be easy.

Right?  I mean, it can't be.  Even if I were to show up and install csound for a friend, thereby completely bypassing for them the scenario you detailed in your email, they still wouldn't be able to do jack shit with it without ponying up a lot of time to learn how to use it.  More time than is required for most other music software (and certainly all commercial software).  And this is how we want it, isn't it?  Not because we mean to discourage users, but because we want a flexible and robust tool.  And the more flexible a computer language/program is, the steeper the learning curve.  If csound were easier, it would be, well, Reason, or some other prefab tool which, while certainly handy and fun, ain't no csound.

So while I understand and am sympathetic to what you are saying, it's a bit misguided to hope that csound can be as simple and easy as a commercial music program.  They have different goals, and cater to different audiences.

I've often imagined that there exists some curve, similar to a supply and demand curve, for the ease of use of a software program.  The analogy would be this:  easy of use would be like the demand, and power of the program would be the supply.  If there is a tremendous amount of flexibility and power in a program/language, then the ease of use must necessarily be low, and vice versa.  Well designed software maximizes the ease of use for a given amount of power.  Csound is extremely powerful.  And considering this, it's also pretty easy to use.  We might find opportunity for small improvements in ease of use, but there is an upward limit as long as we expect csound to remain as flexible and powerful as it is currently.

Your lambasting of the developers for not creating a csound capable of one-click-install for any first-year student with a crummy laptop might spring from the very best of intentions, but the effect it's having is one of lambasting the developers (and one in particular) whose enthusiasm for continuing to improve csound cannot be helped by your crude parable.  And I'd rather much like to keep them around and keep them focused on where their skills are best served: improving the mechanics of csound.

The best way to help the situation is to contribute code, but you might be in the same position I am in of not really having the chops necessary to assist in that capacity.  The next best thing would be to contribute documentation, such as a HowTo for installing csound on Windows.  I would imagine that for yourself the best thing you can do would be to continue that great work you currently perform: being a fierce advocate for the usage and improvement of csound.  Everyone here recognizes and appreciates your work in that respect.

But if I may offer a modicum of advice: find a manner of expressing this advocacy that doesn't come across as quite so insulting and demeaning to the developers of that program we both love so dearly.  That will best serve your goals and the csound community at large.

Yours,

Julian Peterson



On Jul 5, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:

> OK.
> 
> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest version of Csound running.
> 
> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
> 
> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got it running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
> 
> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with this)
> 
> Here's what happens
> 
> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
> 
> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to make some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
> 
> Go to download
> 
> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have never asked me about double or float.
> 
> OK - I will download both
> 
> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
> 
> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/link,,,
> 
> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS    
> - cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on my PC!
> (i even paid for 1 of them)
> 
> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
> 
> OK... I go....
> 
> 
> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's that?  I never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
> 
> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
> 
> - but which version float or double?
> Install
> 
> 
> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they haven't already)
> 
> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
> but it says.... you can keep installing...
> 
> great.
> 
> Keep installing
> 
> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
> 
> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
> 
> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't run without python?
> 
> 
> Maybe it does...
> 
> Now to find Python?
> 
> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...  I downloaded 6 or 7
> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no sound....
> 
> OK.
> 
> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever one would install...
> 
> OK...
> 
> Then... install Csound again.
> 
> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
> 
> OK....
> 
> install Csound float
> 
> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
> 
> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  - because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth it.... but....
> I am about ready to give up...
> 
> Why?
> 
> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui, blah blah blh.. - which door to I chose?
> 
> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
> 
> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
> 
> OK... I try winSound....
> 
> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are none to be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?
> 
> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the desktop at alll....
> 
> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks like a transport here and an editor....
> 
> BUT where are the orchestras?
> 
> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing synth... but not in my speakers!
> 
> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with Csound....
> 
> launch the version I installed
> 
> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and (and why has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound in it...
> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
> 
> Just confused....
> 
> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
> 
> It launches - AMAZING...
> 
> but where is the sound????
> 
> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I select it... I push on the transport...
> 
> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
> 
> I choose the right hardware setup
> 
> I click on the transport................
> 
> 
> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound - because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you see)
> AN Expert actually
> 
> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at Berklee with the Dr. B.  guy....
> 
> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b and check the boxes so that
> it uses the large number????
> 
> 
> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....
> 
> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose wisely...
> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per day on The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT Press in 10 days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and tweeking things here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working version for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F. Richard Moore) .... and of course.....
> 
> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where are the cool sounds!
> 
> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound Book, Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to go... and what to do....
> 
> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee let's say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after 2 hours....
> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
> 
> Sorry...
> 
> EMPTY TRASH
> 
> UNINSTALL
> 
> MOVE ON....
> 
> -dB
> 
> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS especially) version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
> 
>> Fran,
>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that suits you. And that you enjoy using it.
>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>> 
>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think it is best not to confuse them.
>> 
>> D
>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Dear all,
>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work with a pc
>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different versions, and both
>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again, but always
>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a great help
>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be really a
>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more experienced
>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>> 
>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>> 
>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>> 
>>> fran.
>>> --View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>> 
>> ________________________________________________
>> David Worrall.
>> - Experimental Polymedia:      worrall.avatar.com.au
>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
> 
> 
> 
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"



Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"



      

Mark,

Thanks for this suggestion and reminder.  Back in the day, we had a  
beginners menu at cSounds.com that had links to a nice set of basics...
Still not sure there was a simple windows build, but... it was helpful  
for sure - I will work at remaking that page again...

-dB

Dr. Richard Boulanger  -  rboulanger@berklee.edu



On Jul 6, 2009, at 9:43 AM, mark jamerson wrote:

>
>
>
>      As a relatively recent (a few years) beginner to the realm of  
> Csound, I would like to make a suggestion regarding the csounds.com  
> website issue that Dr. B brings up.  I agree with his discovery that  
> the first page is not exactly aimed at the beginner. I think it  
> might help to have some sort of "Get Started With Csound" link that  
> is highly visible.  The link would then go to a page that has links  
> to one version of Csound for each OS, and one version of Python.  I  
> think we should restrict the beginner's choice as much as possible.   
> Take out the choice of float or double, and let them make that  
> choice when they are more familiar with the world of csound.  I also  
> think that the Csound we offer to beginner's should be the core  
> Csound that has recently been discussed( This could also eliminate  
> the need for python) .  Something like a demo version, with a note  
> telling the beginner that they can get more out of Csound later if  
> they choose.  I also think
> the beginner version of Csound should include QuteCsound (The  
> appropriate version to match the only Csound we offer them).  I only  
> recently checked out QuteCsound, and I think it is highly accessible  
> and user-friendly.  I never found that with winsound or csound5gui,  
> and wound up using WinXound instead.
>
>      Basically my main point is that I think we need to create a  
> portal for the beginners to be funnelled through that is limited in  
> scope so as not to confuse them in the beginning.
>
>                                                Mark
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Dr. Richard Boulanger 
> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
> Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 11:07:59 PM
> Subject: [Csnd] Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple Installer/Build for  
> Windowswith QuteCsound (was: Building Python API
>
> OK.
>
> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest  
> version of Csound running.
>
> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
>
> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got  
> it running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
>
> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with this)
>
> Here's what happens
>
> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
>
> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to  
> make some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
>
> Go to download
>
> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have  
> never asked me about double or float.
>
> OK - I will download both
>
> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
>
> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/link,,,
>
> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS
> - cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial  
> software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on my  
> PC!
> (i even paid for 1 of them)
>
> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
>
> OK... I go....
>
>
> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's  
> that?  I never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
>
> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
>
> - but which version float or double?
> Install
>
>
> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they  
> haven't already)
>
> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
> but it says.... you can keep installing...
>
> great.
>
> Keep installing
>
> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
>
> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
>
> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't  
> run without python?
>
>
> Maybe it does...
>
> Now to find Python?
>
> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...  I  
> downloaded 6 or 7
> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no  
> sound....
>
> OK.
>
> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever one  
> would install...
>
> OK...
>
> Then... install Csound again.
>
> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
>
> OK....
>
> install Csound float
>
> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
>
> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  -  
> because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth it....  
> but....
> I am about ready to give up...
>
> Why?
>
> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui, blah  
> blah blh.. - which door to I chose?
>
> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
>
> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
>
> OK... I try winSound....
>
> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are  
> none to be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?
>
> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the  
> desktop at alll....
>
> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks  
> like a transport here and an editor....
>
> BUT where are the orchestras?
>
> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing  
> synth... but not in my speakers!
>
> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with Csound....
>
> launch the version I installed
>
> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and  
> (and why has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound  
> in it...
> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
>
> Just confused....
>
> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
>
> It launches - AMAZING...
>
> but where is the sound????
>
> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I select  
> it... I push on the transport...
>
> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
>
> I choose the right hardware setup
>
> I click on the transport................
>
>
> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound -  
> because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you  
> see)
> AN Expert actually
>
> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at  
> Berklee with the Dr. B.  guy....
>
> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that  
> chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b  
> and check the boxes so that
> it uses the large number????
>
>
> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....
>
> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose  
> wisely...
> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per  
> day on The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT  
> Press in 10 days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and  
> tweeking things here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working  
> version for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F.  
> Richard Moore) .... and of course.....
>
> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where are  
> the cool sounds!
>
> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound  
> Book, Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to  
> go... and what to do....
>
> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee  
> let's say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after  
> 2 hours....
> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
>
> Sorry...
>
> EMPTY TRASH
>
> UNINSTALL
>
> MOVE ON....
>
> -dB
>
> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS especially)  
> version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
>
>> Fran,
>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that  
>> suits you. And that you enjoy using it.
>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>
>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think  
>> it is best not to confuse them.
>>
>> D
>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work  
>>> with a pc
>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different  
>>> versions, and both
>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again,  
>>> but always
>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a  
>>> great help
>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be  
>>> really a
>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more  
>>> experienced
>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>>
>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>
>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>
>>> fran.
>>> --View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>> ________________________________________________
>> David Worrall.
>> - Experimental Polymedia:      worrall.avatar.com.au
>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

just a thought,
and sorry if it's impractical, I'm not a developer by any means.....

but would it be possible to make an "installation wizard" of the
annoying sort prevalent in older Windows OS's?

Something that would walk you through the various variables and paths
that would need to be set by asking you a series of questions? That
way you wouldn't have to make an installer that could figure out these
things for itself, just know enough to ask the right questions....
For example, "what audio output device do you want to use?" "where is
importantlibrary.lib?" etc. etc.


A

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Dr. Richard
Boulanger wrote:
> Mark,
>
> Thanks for this suggestion and reminder.  Back in the day, we had a
> beginners menu at cSounds.com that had links to a nice set of basics...
> Still not sure there was a simple windows build, but... it was helpful for
> sure - I will work at remaking that page again...
>
> -dB
>
> Dr. Richard Boulanger  -  rboulanger@berklee.edu
>
>
>
> On Jul 6, 2009, at 9:43 AM, mark jamerson wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>     As a relatively recent (a few years) beginner to the realm of Csound,
>> I would like to make a suggestion regarding the csounds.com website issue
>> that Dr. B brings up.  I agree with his discovery that the first page is not
>> exactly aimed at the beginner. I think it might help to have some sort of
>> "Get Started With Csound" link that is highly visible.  The link would then
>> go to a page that has links to one version of Csound for each OS, and one
>> version of Python.  I think we should restrict the beginner's choice as much
>> as possible.  Take out the choice of float or double, and let them make that
>> choice when they are more familiar with the world of csound.  I also think
>> that the Csound we offer to beginner's should be the core Csound that has
>> recently been discussed( This could also eliminate the need for python) .
>>  Something like a demo version, with a note telling the beginner that they
>> can get more out of Csound later if they choose.  I also think
>> the beginner version of Csound should include QuteCsound (The appropriate
>> version to match the only Csound we offer them).  I only recently checked
>> out QuteCsound, and I think it is highly accessible and user-friendly.  I
>> never found that with winsound or csound5gui, and wound up using WinXound
>> instead.
>>
>>     Basically my main point is that I think we need to create a portal for
>> the beginners to be funnelled through that is limited in scope so as not to
>> confuse them in the beginning.
>>
>>                                               Mark
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Dr. Richard Boulanger 
>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>> Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 11:07:59 PM
>> Subject: [Csnd] Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple Installer/Build for
>> Windowswith QuteCsound (was: Building Python API
>>
>> OK.
>>
>> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest version
>> of Csound running.
>>
>> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
>>
>> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got it
>> running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
>>
>> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with this)
>>
>> Here's what happens
>>
>> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
>>
>> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
>> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to make
>> some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
>> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
>>
>> Go to download
>>
>> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
>> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have never
>> asked me about double or float.
>>
>> OK - I will download both
>>
>> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
>> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
>>
>> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/link,,,
>>
>> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS
>> - cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial
>> software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on my PC!
>> (i even paid for 1 of them)
>>
>> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
>>
>> OK... I go....
>>
>>
>> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's that?  I
>> never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
>>
>> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
>>
>> - but which version float or double?
>> Install
>>
>>
>> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they haven't
>> already)
>>
>> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
>> but it says.... you can keep installing...
>>
>> great.
>>
>> Keep installing
>>
>> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
>>
>> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
>>
>> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't run
>> without python?
>>
>>
>> Maybe it does...
>>
>> Now to find Python?
>>
>> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...  I
>> downloaded 6 or 7
>> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no sound....
>>
>> OK.
>>
>> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever one would
>> install...
>>
>> OK...
>>
>> Then... install Csound again.
>>
>> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
>> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
>>
>> OK....
>>
>> install Csound float
>>
>> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
>>
>> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  - because
>> I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth it.... but....
>> I am about ready to give up...
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui, blah blah
>> blh.. - which door to I chose?
>>
>> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
>>
>> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
>>
>> OK... I try winSound....
>>
>> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are none to
>> be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?
>>
>> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the desktop
>> at alll....
>>
>> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks like a
>> transport here and an editor....
>>
>> BUT where are the orchestras?
>>
>> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing
>> synth... but not in my speakers!
>>
>> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with Csound....
>>
>> launch the version I installed
>>
>> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and (and why
>> has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound in it...
>> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
>>
>> Just confused....
>>
>> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
>>
>> It launches - AMAZING...
>>
>> but where is the sound????
>>
>> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I select it...
>> I push on the transport...
>>
>> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
>>
>> I choose the right hardware setup
>>
>> I click on the transport................
>>
>>
>> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound - because
>> this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you see)
>> AN Expert actually
>>
>> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at Berklee
>> with the Dr. B.  guy....
>>
>> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that chatter
>> and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b and check the
>> boxes so that
>> it uses the large number????
>>
>>
>> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....
>>
>> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose wisely...
>> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per day on
>> The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT Press in 10 days
>> (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and tweeking things here and
>> there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
>> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working version
>> for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
>> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F. Richard
>> Moore) .... and of course.....
>>
>> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where are the
>> cool sounds!
>>
>> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound Book,
>> Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to go... and what
>> to do....
>>
>> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee let's
>> say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after 2 hours....
>> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
>>
>> Sorry...
>>
>> EMPTY TRASH
>>
>> UNINSTALL
>>
>> MOVE ON....
>>
>> -dB
>>
>> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS especially)
>> version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
>>
>>> Fran,
>>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that suits
>>> you. And that you enjoy using it.
>>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>>
>>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think it is
>>> best not to confuse them.
>>>
>>> D
>>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear all,
>>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work with
>>>> a pc
>>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different versions, and
>>>> both
>>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again, but
>>>> always
>>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a great
>>>> help
>>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be
>>>> really a
>>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more
>>>> experienced
>>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>>>
>>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>>
>>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>>
>>>> fran.
>>>> --View this message in context:
>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>>>> csound"
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________
>>> David Worrall.
>>> - Experimental Polymedia:      worrall.avatar.com.au
>>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>>> csound"
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>

This is indeed possible but I do not think the people who want a
better installer would find it satisfactory. That includes me.

What I have in mind right now is the current installer with some check
boxes for what parts of Csound you want to install. The default would
be the "core" version people are talking about, but you could enable
Python, Java, Lua, etc.

Regards,
Mike

On 7/6/09, Aidan Collins  wrote:
> just a thought,
> and sorry if it's impractical, I'm not a developer by any means.....
>
> but would it be possible to make an "installation wizard" of the
> annoying sort prevalent in older Windows OS's?
>
> Something that would walk you through the various variables and paths
> that would need to be set by asking you a series of questions? That
> way you wouldn't have to make an installer that could figure out these
> things for itself, just know enough to ask the right questions....
> For example, "what audio output device do you want to use?" "where is
> importantlibrary.lib?" etc. etc.
>
>
> A
>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Dr. Richard
> Boulanger wrote:
>> Mark,
>>
>> Thanks for this suggestion and reminder.  Back in the day, we had a
>> beginners menu at cSounds.com that had links to a nice set of basics...
>> Still not sure there was a simple windows build, but... it was helpful for
>> sure - I will work at remaking that page again...
>>
>> -dB
>>
>> Dr. Richard Boulanger  -  rboulanger@berklee.edu
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 6, 2009, at 9:43 AM, mark jamerson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     As a relatively recent (a few years) beginner to the realm of Csound,
>>> I would like to make a suggestion regarding the csounds.com website issue
>>> that Dr. B brings up.  I agree with his discovery that the first page is
>>> not
>>> exactly aimed at the beginner. I think it might help to have some sort of
>>> "Get Started With Csound" link that is highly visible.  The link would
>>> then
>>> go to a page that has links to one version of Csound for each OS, and one
>>> version of Python.  I think we should restrict the beginner's choice as
>>> much
>>> as possible.  Take out the choice of float or double, and let them make
>>> that
>>> choice when they are more familiar with the world of csound.  I also
>>> think
>>> that the Csound we offer to beginner's should be the core Csound that has
>>> recently been discussed( This could also eliminate the need for python) .
>>>  Something like a demo version, with a note telling the beginner that
>>> they
>>> can get more out of Csound later if they choose.  I also think
>>> the beginner version of Csound should include QuteCsound (The appropriate
>>> version to match the only Csound we offer them).  I only recently checked
>>> out QuteCsound, and I think it is highly accessible and user-friendly.  I
>>> never found that with winsound or csound5gui, and wound up using WinXound
>>> instead.
>>>
>>>     Basically my main point is that I think we need to create a portal
>>> for
>>> the beginners to be funnelled through that is limited in scope so as not
>>> to
>>> confuse them in the beginning.
>>>
>>>                                               Mark
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Dr. Richard Boulanger 
>>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>> Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 11:07:59 PM
>>> Subject: [Csnd] Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple Installer/Build for
>>> Windowswith QuteCsound (was: Building Python API
>>>
>>> OK.
>>>
>>> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest
>>> version
>>> of Csound running.
>>>
>>> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
>>>
>>> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got it
>>> running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
>>>
>>> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with this)
>>>
>>> Here's what happens
>>>
>>> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
>>>
>>> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
>>> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to make
>>> some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
>>> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
>>>
>>> Go to download
>>>
>>> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
>>> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have never
>>> asked me about double or float.
>>>
>>> OK - I will download both
>>>
>>> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
>>> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
>>>
>>> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/link,,,
>>>
>>> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS
>>> - cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial
>>> software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on my PC!
>>> (i even paid for 1 of them)
>>>
>>> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
>>>
>>> OK... I go....
>>>
>>>
>>> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's that?  I
>>> never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
>>>
>>> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
>>>
>>> - but which version float or double?
>>> Install
>>>
>>>
>>> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they haven't
>>> already)
>>>
>>> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
>>> but it says.... you can keep installing...
>>>
>>> great.
>>>
>>> Keep installing
>>>
>>> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
>>>
>>> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
>>>
>>> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't run
>>> without python?
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe it does...
>>>
>>> Now to find Python?
>>>
>>> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...  I
>>> downloaded 6 or 7
>>> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no
>>> sound....
>>>
>>> OK.
>>>
>>> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever one
>>> would
>>> install...
>>>
>>> OK...
>>>
>>> Then... install Csound again.
>>>
>>> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
>>> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
>>>
>>> OK....
>>>
>>> install Csound float
>>>
>>> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
>>>
>>> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  -
>>> because
>>> I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth it.... but....
>>> I am about ready to give up...
>>>
>>> Why?
>>>
>>> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui, blah blah
>>> blh.. - which door to I chose?
>>>
>>> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
>>>
>>> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
>>>
>>> OK... I try winSound....
>>>
>>> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are none
>>> to
>>> be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?
>>>
>>> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the
>>> desktop
>>> at alll....
>>>
>>> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks like a
>>> transport here and an editor....
>>>
>>> BUT where are the orchestras?
>>>
>>> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing
>>> synth... but not in my speakers!
>>>
>>> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with Csound....
>>>
>>> launch the version I installed
>>>
>>> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and (and why
>>> has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound in it...
>>> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
>>>
>>> Just confused....
>>>
>>> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
>>>
>>> It launches - AMAZING...
>>>
>>> but where is the sound????
>>>
>>> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I select
>>> it...
>>> I push on the transport...
>>>
>>> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
>>>
>>> I choose the right hardware setup
>>>
>>> I click on the transport................
>>>
>>>
>>> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound -
>>> because
>>> this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you see)
>>> AN Expert actually
>>>
>>> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at Berklee
>>> with the Dr. B.  guy....
>>>
>>> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that
>>> chatter
>>> and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b and check the
>>> boxes so that
>>> it uses the large number????
>>>
>>>
>>> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....
>>>
>>> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose wisely...
>>> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per day on
>>> The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT Press in 10
>>> days
>>> (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and tweeking things here and
>>> there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
>>> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working version
>>> for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
>>> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F. Richard
>>> Moore) .... and of course.....
>>>
>>> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where are the
>>> cool sounds!
>>>
>>> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound Book,
>>> Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to go... and
>>> what
>>> to do....
>>>
>>> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee let's
>>> say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after 2 hours....
>>> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
>>>
>>> Sorry...
>>>
>>> EMPTY TRASH
>>>
>>> UNINSTALL
>>>
>>> MOVE ON....
>>>
>>> -dB
>>>
>>> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS especially)
>>> version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
>>>
>>>> Fran,
>>>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that suits
>>>> you. And that you enjoy using it.
>>>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>>>
>>>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think it is
>>>> best not to confuse them.
>>>>
>>>> D
>>>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work with
>>>>> a pc
>>>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different versions, and
>>>>> both
>>>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again, but
>>>>> always
>>>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a great
>>>>> help
>>>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be
>>>>> really a
>>>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more
>>>>> experienced
>>>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>>>
>>>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>>>
>>>>> fran.
>>>>> --View this message in context:
>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>>> csound"
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>> David Worrall.
>>>> - Experimental Polymedia:      worrall.avatar.com.au
>>>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>>>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>>>> csound"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>>> csound"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>>> csound"
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"


-- 
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com

Sounds like a good (great) strategy.  Include QuteCsound as one of the  
options too.


Sent from my Arp 2600 ;-)


On Jul 6, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Michael Gogins   
wrote:

> This is indeed possible but I do not think the people who want a
> better installer would find it satisfactory. That includes me.
>
> What I have in mind right now is the current installer with some check
> boxes for what parts of Csound you want to install. The default would
> be the "core" version people are talking about, but you could enable
> Python, Java, Lua, etc.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> On 7/6/09, Aidan Collins  wrote:
>> just a thought,
>> and sorry if it's impractical, I'm not a developer by any means.....
>>
>> but would it be possible to make an "installation wizard" of the
>> annoying sort prevalent in older Windows OS's?
>>
>> Something that would walk you through the various variables and paths
>> that would need to be set by asking you a series of questions? That
>> way you wouldn't have to make an installer that could figure out  
>> these
>> things for itself, just know enough to ask the right questions....
>> For example, "what audio output device do you want to use?" "where is
>> importantlibrary.lib?" etc. etc.
>>
>>
>> A
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Dr. Richard
>> Boulanger wrote:
>>> Mark,
>>>
>>> Thanks for this suggestion and reminder.  Back in the day, we had a
>>> beginners menu at cSounds.com that had links to a nice set of  
>>> basics...
>>> Still not sure there was a simple windows build, but... it was  
>>> helpful for
>>> sure - I will work at remaking that page again...
>>>
>>> -dB
>>>
>>> Dr. Richard Boulanger  -  rboulanger@berklee.edu
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 6, 2009, at 9:43 AM, mark jamerson wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     As a relatively recent (a few years) beginner to the realm of  
>>>> Csound,
>>>> I would like to make a suggestion regarding the csounds.com  
>>>> website issue
>>>> that Dr. B brings up.  I agree with his discovery that the first  
>>>> page is
>>>> not
>>>> exactly aimed at the beginner. I think it might help to have some  
>>>> sort of
>>>> "Get Started With Csound" link that is highly visible.  The link  
>>>> would
>>>> then
>>>> go to a page that has links to one version of Csound for each OS,  
>>>> and one
>>>> version of Python.  I think we should restrict the beginner's  
>>>> choice as
>>>> much
>>>> as possible.  Take out the choice of float or double, and let  
>>>> them make
>>>> that
>>>> choice when they are more familiar with the world of csound.  I  
>>>> also
>>>> think
>>>> that the Csound we offer to beginner's should be the core Csound  
>>>> that has
>>>> recently been discussed( This could also eliminate the need for  
>>>> python) .
>>>>  Something like a demo version, with a note telling the beginner  
>>>> that
>>>> they
>>>> can get more out of Csound later if they choose.  I also think
>>>> the beginner version of Csound should include QuteCsound (The  
>>>> appropriate
>>>> version to match the only Csound we offer them).  I only recently  
>>>> checked
>>>> out QuteCsound, and I think it is highly accessible and user- 
>>>> friendly.  I
>>>> never found that with winsound or csound5gui, and wound up using  
>>>> WinXound
>>>> instead.
>>>>
>>>>     Basically my main point is that I think we need to create a  
>>>> portal
>>>> for
>>>> the beginners to be funnelled through that is limited in scope so  
>>>> as not
>>>> to
>>>> confuse them in the beginning.
>>>>
>>>>                                               Mark
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>> From: Dr. Richard Boulanger 
>>>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 11:07:59 PM
>>>> Subject: [Csnd] Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple Installer/Build  
>>>> for
>>>> Windowswith QuteCsound (was: Building Python API
>>>>
>>>> OK.
>>>>
>>>> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest
>>>> version
>>>> of Csound running.
>>>>
>>>> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
>>>>
>>>> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally  
>>>> got it
>>>> running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
>>>>
>>>> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with  
>>>> this)
>>>>
>>>> Here's what happens
>>>>
>>>> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
>>>>
>>>> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
>>>> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want  
>>>> to make
>>>> some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
>>>> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
>>>>
>>>> Go to download
>>>>
>>>> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
>>>> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have  
>>>> never
>>>> asked me about double or float.
>>>>
>>>> OK - I will download both
>>>>
>>>> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
>>>> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
>>>>
>>>> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/ 
>>>> link,,,
>>>>
>>>> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS
>>>> - cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial
>>>> software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on  
>>>> my PC!
>>>> (i even paid for 1 of them)
>>>>
>>>> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
>>>>
>>>> OK... I go....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's  
>>>> that?  I
>>>> never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
>>>>
>>>> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
>>>>
>>>> - but which version float or double?
>>>> Install
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they  
>>>> haven't
>>>> already)
>>>>
>>>> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
>>>> but it says.... you can keep installing...
>>>>
>>>> great.
>>>>
>>>> Keep installing
>>>>
>>>> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
>>>>
>>>> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
>>>>
>>>> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't  
>>>> run
>>>> without python?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe it does...
>>>>
>>>> Now to find Python?
>>>>
>>>> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of  
>>>> Python...  I
>>>> downloaded 6 or 7
>>>> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no
>>>> sound....
>>>>
>>>> OK.
>>>>
>>>> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever  
>>>> one
>>>> would
>>>> install...
>>>>
>>>> OK...
>>>>
>>>> Then... install Csound again.
>>>>
>>>> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
>>>> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
>>>>
>>>> OK....
>>>>
>>>> install Csound float
>>>>
>>>> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
>>>>
>>>> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  -
>>>> because
>>>> I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth it....  
>>>> but....
>>>> I am about ready to give up...
>>>>
>>>> Why?
>>>>
>>>> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui,  
>>>> blah blah
>>>> blh.. - which door to I chose?
>>>>
>>>> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
>>>>
>>>> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
>>>>
>>>> OK... I try winSound....
>>>>
>>>> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there  
>>>> are none
>>>> to
>>>> be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?
>>>>
>>>> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the
>>>> desktop
>>>> at alll....
>>>>
>>>> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ...  
>>>> looks like a
>>>> transport here and an editor....
>>>>
>>>> BUT where are the orchestras?
>>>>
>>>> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing
>>>> synth... but not in my speakers!
>>>>
>>>> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with  
>>>> Csound....
>>>>
>>>> launch the version I installed
>>>>
>>>> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and  
>>>> (and why
>>>> has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound in it...
>>>> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
>>>>
>>>> Just confused....
>>>>
>>>> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
>>>>
>>>> It launches - AMAZING...
>>>>
>>>> but where is the sound????
>>>>
>>>> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I  
>>>> select
>>>> it...
>>>> I push on the transport...
>>>>
>>>> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
>>>>
>>>> I choose the right hardware setup
>>>>
>>>> I click on the transport................
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound -
>>>> because
>>>> this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you see)
>>>> AN Expert actually
>>>>
>>>> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at  
>>>> Berklee
>>>> with the Dr. B.  guy....
>>>>
>>>> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that
>>>> chatter
>>>> and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b and  
>>>> check the
>>>> boxes so that
>>>> it uses the large number????
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no  
>>>> lie... .....
>>>>
>>>> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose  
>>>> wisely...
>>>> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per  
>>>> day on
>>>> The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT Press  
>>>> in 10
>>>> days
>>>> (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and tweeking things  
>>>> here and
>>>> there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
>>>> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working  
>>>> version
>>>> for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
>>>> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F.  
>>>> Richard
>>>> Moore) .... and of course.....
>>>>
>>>> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where  
>>>> are the
>>>> cool sounds!
>>>>
>>>> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound  
>>>> Book,
>>>> Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to  
>>>> go... and
>>>> what
>>>> to do....
>>>>
>>>> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee  
>>>> let's
>>>> say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after 2  
>>>> hours....
>>>> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
>>>>
>>>> Sorry...
>>>>
>>>> EMPTY TRASH
>>>>
>>>> UNINSTALL
>>>>
>>>> MOVE ON....
>>>>
>>>> -dB
>>>>
>>>> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS  
>>>> especially)
>>>> version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Fran,
>>>>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that  
>>>>> suits
>>>>> you. And that you enjoy using it.
>>>>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I  
>>>>> think it is
>>>>> best not to confuse them.
>>>>>
>>>>> D
>>>>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i  
>>>>>> work with
>>>>>> a pc
>>>>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>>>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different  
>>>>>> versions, and
>>>>>> both
>>>>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again,  
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> always
>>>>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>>>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with  
>>>>>> a great
>>>>>> help
>>>>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would  
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> really a
>>>>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>>>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more
>>>>>> experienced
>>>>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I  
>>>>>> suppose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> fran.
>>>>>> --View this message in context:
>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>>>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at  
>>>>>> Nabble.com.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>>>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>>>> csound"
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>> David Worrall.
>>>>> - Experimental Polymedia:      worrall.avatar.com.au
>>>>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>>>>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>>> csound"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>> csound"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>> csound"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>> "unsubscribe
>>> csound"
>>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>> "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>
>
> -- 
> Michael Gogins
> Irreducible Productions
> http://www.michael-gogins.com
> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

Julian Peterson wrote:
> Here's the reality of the situation: csound is a programming 
> language.  It's a great programming language, one we're all devoted 
> to, and one which we all rightfully believe is one of the most 
> powerful ever imagined for music and sound production.
...
> csound will never be easy.
>
> Yours,
>
> Julian Peterson
>
First off, I just want to mention that this isn't directed to you 
specifically, Julian, but I've seen similar arguments like this come up 
with regards to the current discussion and would like to make a quick 
response to them.

I don't think it's a good idea to just accept that Csound is hard, and 
that's just the way it is. Of course Csound will never be *easy* per se, 
but it could definitely be *easier*, and I think that's all that this 
discussion is really about. Powerful programs lose their power if people 
can't use them. The audience for Csound isn't--or at least shouldn't 
be--just computer programmers. The audience is musicians. True, more 
technically savvy musicians, but still musicians. Yes, the learning 
curve is steep, but that curve could be leveed by simplifying those 
aspects that have not business being difficult, such as musician 
friendly terminology in the manual as Jason Adams suggested, accessible 
tutorials for new users, a standard bundled frontend (QuteCsound) that 
uses a modern interface (because seriously, hardly anyone uses the 
commandline any more, especially Windows users), and an easy install. 
Installing should not be part of the learning curve.

.mmb

> Installing should not be part of the learning curve.

definitely.


Stef