Right on, Rick!

Art Hunkins

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dr. Richard Boulanger" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 12:07 AM
Subject: [PMX:####] [Csnd] Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple Installer/Build 
for Windowswith QuteCsound (was: Building Python API


> OK.
>
> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest 
> version of Csound running.
>
> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
>
> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got it 
> running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
>
> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with this)
>
> Here's what happens
>
> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
>
> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to  make 
> some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
>
> Go to download
>
> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have never 
> asked me about double or float.
>
> OK - I will download both
>
> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
>
> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/link,,,
>
> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS - cool, but what does 
> canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial  software uses this term - 
> and I have EVERY commercial program on my PC!
> (i even paid for 1 of them)
>
> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
>
> OK... I go....
>
>
> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's that?   I 
> never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
>
> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
>
> - but which version float or double?
> Install
>
>
> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they  haven't 
> already)
>
> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
> but it says.... you can keep installing...
>
> great.
>
> Keep installing
>
> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
>
> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
>
> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't run 
> without python?
>
>
> Maybe it does...
>
> Now to find Python?
>
> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...  I 
> downloaded 6 or 7
> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no 
> sound....
>
> OK.
>
> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever one 
> would install...
>
> OK...
>
> Then... install Csound again.
>
> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
>
> OK....
>
> install Csound float
>
> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
>
> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  - 
> because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth it.... 
> but....
> I am about ready to give up...
>
> Why?
>
> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui, blah  blah 
> blh.. - which door to I chose?
>
> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
>
> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
>
> OK... I try winSound....
>
> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are  none 
> to be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?
>
> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the 
> desktop at alll....
>
> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks  like a 
> transport here and an editor....
>
> BUT where are the orchestras?
>
> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing 
> synth... but not in my speakers!
>
> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with Csound....
>
> launch the version I installed
>
> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and (and  why 
> has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound in it...
> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
>
> Just confused....
>
> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
>
> It launches - AMAZING...
>
> but where is the sound????
>
> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I select 
> it... I push on the transport...
>
> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
>
> I choose the right hardware setup
>
> I click on the transport................
>
>
> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound - 
> because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you see)
> AN Expert actually
>
> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at Berklee 
> with the Dr. B.  guy....
>
> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that 
> chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b  and 
> check the boxes so that
> it uses the large number????
>
>
> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....
>
> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose wisely...
> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per day  on 
> The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT Press in  10 
> days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and tweeking  things 
> here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working  version 
> for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F.  Richard 
> Moore) .... and of course.....
>
> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where are  the 
> cool sounds!
>
> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound Book, 
> Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to go...  and 
> what to do....
>
> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee let's 
> say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after 2  hours....
> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
>
> Sorry...
>
> EMPTY TRASH
>
> UNINSTALL
>
> MOVE ON....
>
> -dB
>
> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS especially) 
> version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
>
>> Fran,
>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that  suits 
>> you. And that you enjoy using it.
>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>
>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think  it is 
>> best not to confuse them.
>>
>> D
>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work  with 
>>> a pc
>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different versions,  and 
>>> both
>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again, but 
>>> always
>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a  great 
>>> help
>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be 
>>> really a
>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more 
>>> experienced
>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>>
>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>
>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>
>>> fran.
>>> -- 
>>> View this message in context: 
>>> http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body 
>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>> ________________________________________________
>> David Worrall.
>> - Experimental Polymedia:   worrall.avatar.com.au
>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  "unsubscribe 
>> csound"
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe 
> csound" 

Thanks Art.

I have massively appreciated ALL your efforts toward making Csound  
*just work* on the OLPC and on Windows too!!!

The reason this came up - I have a blind Csound student this semester  
who is using a PC with the Jaws program to read his screen.
Alone, there was no way that he could find a working combination of  
Csound to run on his laptop.
So, with the help of my best student assistant (a Mac-based Csound  
expert), it took them HOURS to set up his PC.
He brought the unit to my office and we spent three hours with his  
*bits of this version - pieces of that version - this frontEnd does  
this only* setup*

- so I went home and tried myself on a clean machine.  (and I tried to  
report that experience below - in someone's shoes)

The thing is - now that it's finally working on my PC - I will never  
have that days worth of problems again.  From now on any install  
should work,
but... I think I might have more patience and vested interest than the  
average professional or student.... and I think most others would have
moved on.

What I discovered was that there are so many places to get lost along  
the way it's incredible....  even when you get it running....

I can appreciate now, even in my classes where I am there to hold  
hands, that if you have no one there by your side,
it's pretty difficult to know which way to go.

I do hope that we can come up with a better and more intuitive  
solution (collection) getting started process for ALL platforms.

-Rick


On Jul 8, 2009, at 10:40 AM, Art Hunkins wrote:

> Right on, Rick!
>
> Art Hunkins
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Richard Boulanger"  >
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 12:07 AM
> Subject: [PMX:####] [Csnd] Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple  
> Installer/Build for Windowswith QuteCsound (was: Building Python API
>
>
>> OK.
>>
>> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest  
>> version of Csound running.
>>
>> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
>>
>> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got  
>> it running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
>>
>> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with  
>> this)
>>
>> Here's what happens
>>
>> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
>>
>> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
>> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to   
>> make some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
>> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
>>
>> Go to download
>>
>> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
>> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have  
>> never asked me about double or float.
>>
>> OK - I will download both
>>
>> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
>> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
>>
>> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/ 
>> link,,,
>>
>> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS - cool, but  
>> what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial  software  
>> uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on my PC!
>> (i even paid for 1 of them)
>>
>> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
>>
>> OK... I go....
>>
>>
>> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's  
>> that?   I never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
>>
>> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
>>
>> - but which version float or double?
>> Install
>>
>>
>> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they   
>> haven't already)
>>
>> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
>> but it says.... you can keep installing...
>>
>> great.
>>
>> Keep installing
>>
>> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
>>
>> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
>>
>> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't  
>> run without python?
>>
>>
>> Maybe it does...
>>
>> Now to find Python?
>>
>> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...   
>> I downloaded 6 or 7
>> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no  
>> sound....
>>
>> OK.
>>
>> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever  
>> one would install...
>>
>> OK...
>>
>> Then... install Csound again.
>>
>> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
>> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
>>
>> OK....
>>
>> install Csound float
>>
>> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
>>
>> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  -  
>> because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth  
>> it.... but....
>> I am about ready to give up...
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui,  
>> blah  blah blh.. - which door to I chose?
>>
>> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
>>
>> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
>>
>> OK... I try winSound....
>>
>> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are   
>> none to be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?
>>
>> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the  
>> desktop at alll....
>>
>> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks   
>> like a transport here and an editor....
>>
>> BUT where are the orchestras?
>>
>> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing  
>> synth... but not in my speakers!
>>
>> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with  
>> Csound....
>>
>> launch the version I installed
>>
>> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and  
>> (and  why has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO  
>> Csound in it...
>> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
>>
>> Just confused....
>>
>> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
>>
>> It launches - AMAZING...
>>
>> but where is the sound????
>>
>> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I  
>> select it... I push on the transport...
>>
>> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
>>
>> I choose the right hardware setup
>>
>> I click on the transport................
>>
>>
>> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound -  
>> because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you  
>> see)
>> AN Expert actually
>>
>> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at  
>> Berklee with the Dr. B.  guy....
>>
>> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that  
>> chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and - 
>> b  and check the boxes so that
>> it uses the large number????
>>
>>
>> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....
>>
>> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose  
>> wisely...
>> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per  
>> day  on The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT  
>> Press in  10 days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and  
>> tweeking  things here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
>> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working   
>> version for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
>> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F.   
>> Richard Moore) .... and of course.....
>>
>> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where  
>> are  the cool sounds!
>>
>> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound  
>> Book, Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to  
>> go...  and what to do....
>>
>> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee  
>> let's say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after  
>> 2  hours....
>> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
>>
>> Sorry...
>>
>> EMPTY TRASH
>>
>> UNINSTALL
>>
>> MOVE ON....
>>
>> -dB
>>
>> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS  
>> especially) version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
>>
>>> Fran,
>>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that   
>>> suits you. And that you enjoy using it.
>>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>>
>>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I  
>>> think  it is best not to confuse them.
>>>
>>> D
>>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear all,
>>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i  
>>>> work  with a pc
>>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different  
>>>> versions,  and both
>>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again,  
>>>> but always
>>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with  
>>>> a  great help
>>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would  
>>>> be really a
>>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more  
>>>> experienced
>>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>>>
>>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>>
>>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>>
>>>> fran.
>>>> -- 
>>>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________
>>> David Worrall.
>>> - Experimental Polymedia:   worrall.avatar.com.au
>>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body   
>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"