I have a question, not specifically about csound, though potentially 
useful for it.

How have you guys learned to translate your intuitive musicality into 
your sequencing?

I play gypsy violin some, boogie-woogie piano a bit, and can strum my 
way through pop/folk song chords on guitar, so I have a fair notion of 
what it takes to _play_ something that doesn't sound like cheap 
internet-step-recorded-MIDI, but I have little idea about how to codify 
that into numbers.

How did you guys learn bridge that gap?


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put "[OT]" (out of topic) in the header!!


----- Original Message ----
From: Lilith Bryant 
To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
Sent: Mon, December 14, 2009 11:52:39 AM
Subject: [Csnd] Humanising Compositions

I have a question, not specifically about csound, though potentially useful for it.

How have you guys learned to translate your intuitive musicality into your sequencing?

I play gypsy violin some, boogie-woogie piano a bit, and can strum my way through pop/folk song chords on guitar, so I have a fair notion of what it takes to _play_ something that doesn't sound like cheap internet-step-recorded-MIDI, but I have little idea about how to codify that into numbers.

How did you guys learn bridge that gap?


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I have been messing around with csound instruments where the notes are
started in time and not by midi.
It could be a little like using a mixer and placing all your sounds in a
particular spot.  I think spotting the midi codes as quickly as possible is
usefull for converting the instruments over but I haven't done much more
than spot the midi codes yet (check the link below for a midi locater you
may need to retype the instrument in some cases because of weird
charecters).  I would think there would be calculators available to convert
sheet music over if that is the way you want to do it.  utem (university of
texas) also has alot of instruments that could give you a nice start on
that.

http://dexrowem.blogspot.com/search?q=ifn+parser



superpija2 wrote:
> 
> put "[OT]" (out of topic) in the header!!
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Lilith Bryant 
> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
> Sent: Mon, December 14, 2009 11:52:39 AM
> Subject: [Csnd] Humanising Compositions
> 
> I have a question, not specifically about csound, though potentially
> useful for it.
> 
> How have you guys learned to translate your intuitive musicality into your
> sequencing?
> 
> I play gypsy violin some, boogie-woogie piano a bit, and can strum my way
> through pop/folk song chords on guitar, so I have a fair notion of what it
> takes to _play_ something that doesn't sound like cheap
> internet-step-recorded-MIDI, but I have little idea about how to codify
> that into numbers.
> 
> How did you guys learn bridge that gap?
> 
> 
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
> 
> 
> 
>       
> 
> 
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
> 
> 

The Csound API currently has a facility for importing MusicXML scores
and converting them to Csound scores. This is the CsoundFile or
CppSound importScore(filename) function. Filenames ending with .xml
are considered to be MusicXML files.

Regards,
Mike

On 12/14/09, edexter5  wrote:
>
> I have been messing around with csound instruments where the notes are
> started in time and not by midi.
> It could be a little like using a mixer and placing all your sounds in a
> particular spot.  I think spotting the midi codes as quickly as possible is
> usefull for converting the instruments over but I haven't done much more
> than spot the midi codes yet (check the link below for a midi locater you
> may need to retype the instrument in some cases because of weird
> charecters).  I would think there would be calculators available to convert
> sheet music over if that is the way you want to do it.  utem (university of
> texas) also has alot of instruments that could give you a nice start on
> that.
>
> http://dexrowem.blogspot.com/search?q=ifn+parser
>
>
>
> superpija2 wrote:
>>
>> put "[OT]" (out of topic) in the header!!
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Lilith Bryant 
>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>> Sent: Mon, December 14, 2009 11:52:39 AM
>> Subject: [Csnd] Humanising Compositions
>>
>> I have a question, not specifically about csound, though potentially
>> useful for it.
>>
>> How have you guys learned to translate your intuitive musicality into your
>> sequencing?
>>
>> I play gypsy violin some, boogie-woogie piano a bit, and can strum my way
>> through pop/folk song chords on guitar, so I have a fair notion of what it
>> takes to _play_ something that doesn't sound like cheap
>> internet-step-recorded-MIDI, but I have little idea about how to codify
>> that into numbers.
>>
>> How did you guys learn bridge that gap?
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://old.nabble.com/Humanising-Compositions-tp26775341p26779202.html
> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
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>

If you have the Csound Book, look at Richard Dobson's chapter, "Designing
Legato Instruments." He goes into issues of musical expression. It's not
MIDI related, but might give you some ideas. Also, check emusician.com,
the web site of Electronic Musician magazine. They have run quite a few
articles over the years on how to make sequenced music more musical.

--David

> I have a question, not specifically about csound, though potentially
> useful for it.
>
> How have you guys learned to translate your intuitive musicality into
> your sequencing?
>
> I play gypsy violin some, boogie-woogie piano a bit, and can strum my
> way through pop/folk song chords on guitar, so I have a fair notion of
> what it takes to _play_ something that doesn't sound like cheap
> internet-step-recorded-MIDI, but I have little idea about how to codify
> that into numbers.
>
> How did you guys learn bridge that gap?
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>




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moko@city-net.com wrote:
> If you have the Csound Book, look at Richard Dobson's
> chapter, "Designing Legato Instruments." He goes into
> issues of musical expression. It's not MIDI related, but
> might give you some ideas. Also, check emusician.com, the
> web site of Electronic Musician magazine. They have run
> quite a few articles over the years on how to make
> sequenced music more musical.

Any articles in particular?  I tried some searches, and
they weren't very fruitful.  There's this:

http://emusician.com/tutorials/tracks-make-mine-rubato-1109/index.html

which is about variable tempo with one particular piece of
proprietary software.  Then there's a piece about
getting analog-style sequencers to sound like humans
using analog sequencers, rather than humans playing
older instruments:

http://emusician.com/tutorials/making-tracks-next-step/index.html

To the original message:

> > I have a question, not specifically about csound,
> > though potentially useful for it.

Let's hope it's useful for Csound.  Somebody came and told
us it was off-topic, which is worrying.

> > How have you guys learned to translate your intuitive
> > musicality into your sequencing?

I have got some practice with moving notes around in a
sequencer, and typing the exact values in Csound scores.
I'm actually fairly happy with the results.  The problem is
that it's incredibly boring, and I don't relish sitting
down, tweaking numbers, listening back, and so on over and
over again.  Hence I don't have even a short score file to
demonstrate this.

So it'd be nice to be told about some cool piece of
software that integrates with Csound and does the hard
work.  Unfortunately that hasn't happened.  Instead, it's
apparently an off-topic discussion, so get back to your
sequencer.

You can get Csound to follow a tapped tempo.  I forget if
it's in The Book.  But I find I don't care much at all
about varying tempos.  It's what happens inside the bar that
matters.

> > I play gypsy violin some, boogie-woogie piano a bit,
> > and can strum my way through pop/folk song chords on
> > guitar, so I have a fair notion of what it takes to
> > _play_ something that doesn't sound like cheap
> > internet-step-recorded-MIDI, but I have little idea
> > about how to codify that into numbers.

If you can play a keyboard, it's a good idea to do that.
Then you can have real-time-recorded MIDI that sounds
pretty much like the original performance.  (Some people
complain about the latency.  I've heard pipe organs
are much worse.)  If you don't want it to sound like a
keyboard, that can be tough. You could get some knobs to
play with.

Also, step-recorded MIDI needn't be so cheap.  You can
preserve the input key velocities.  (I'm a bit disappointed
to find that Rosegarden doesn't do this.)  You can also
record a tune with the right rhythm, but the wrong
pitches, and sort them out later.

Csound can, of course, work fine with MIDI.  You may prefer
to convert to a Csound score to use legato.  The MIDI
convention is to set mono mode and have notes overlap.  I
don't know if Csound can work with that.

Yet another option is to work in a style of music where
mechanical performances work fine and are expected -- hence
that article about tweaking step sequencers.  (Is there a
step sequencer interface for Csound?  It can surely be
done.)

> > How did you guys learn bridge that gap?

Lots of practice is the thing.  Play something in, see how
it deviates from the pulse, tweak the notes that
sound wrong.


                                     Graham


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The rubato article was the one I was thinking about. Can't think of others
specifically and I don't keep the magazines. I recall primarily articles
on how to make sequenced rhythm less rigid.

--David

> moko@city-net.com wrote:
>> If you have the Csound Book, look at Richard Dobson's
>> chapter, "Designing Legato Instruments." He goes into
>> issues of musical expression. It's not MIDI related, but
>> might give you some ideas. Also, check emusician.com, the
>> web site of Electronic Musician magazine. They have run
>> quite a few articles over the years on how to make
>> sequenced music more musical.
>
> Any articles in particular?  I tried some searches, and
> they weren't very fruitful.  There's this:
>
> http://emusician.com/tutorials/tracks-make-mine-rubato-1109/index.html
>
> which is about variable tempo with one particular piece of
> proprietary software.  Then there's a piece about
> getting analog-style sequencers to sound like humans
> using analog sequencers, rather than humans playing
> older instruments:
>
> http://emusician.com/tutorials/making-tracks-next-step/index.html
>
> To the original message:
>
>> > I have a question, not specifically about csound,
>> > though potentially useful for it.
>
> Let's hope it's useful for Csound.  Somebody came and told
> us it was off-topic, which is worrying.
>
>> > How have you guys learned to translate your intuitive
>> > musicality into your sequencing?
>
> I have got some practice with moving notes around in a
> sequencer, and typing the exact values in Csound scores.
> I'm actually fairly happy with the results.  The problem is
> that it's incredibly boring, and I don't relish sitting
> down, tweaking numbers, listening back, and so on over and
> over again.  Hence I don't have even a short score file to
> demonstrate this.
>
> So it'd be nice to be told about some cool piece of
> software that integrates with Csound and does the hard
> work.  Unfortunately that hasn't happened.  Instead, it's
> apparently an off-topic discussion, so get back to your
> sequencer.
>
> You can get Csound to follow a tapped tempo.  I forget if
> it's in The Book.  But I find I don't care much at all
> about varying tempos.  It's what happens inside the bar that
> matters.
>
>> > I play gypsy violin some, boogie-woogie piano a bit,
>> > and can strum my way through pop/folk song chords on
>> > guitar, so I have a fair notion of what it takes to
>> > _play_ something that doesn't sound like cheap
>> > internet-step-recorded-MIDI, but I have little idea
>> > about how to codify that into numbers.
>
> If you can play a keyboard, it's a good idea to do that.
> Then you can have real-time-recorded MIDI that sounds
> pretty much like the original performance.  (Some people
> complain about the latency.  I've heard pipe organs
> are much worse.)  If you don't want it to sound like a
> keyboard, that can be tough. You could get some knobs to
> play with.
>
> Also, step-recorded MIDI needn't be so cheap.  You can
> preserve the input key velocities.  (I'm a bit disappointed
> to find that Rosegarden doesn't do this.)  You can also
> record a tune with the right rhythm, but the wrong
> pitches, and sort them out later.
>
> Csound can, of course, work fine with MIDI.  You may prefer
> to convert to a Csound score to use legato.  The MIDI
> convention is to set mono mode and have notes overlap.  I
> don't know if Csound can work with that.
>
> Yet another option is to work in a style of music where
> mechanical performances work fine and are expected -- hence
> that article about tweaking step sequencers.  (Is there a
> step sequencer interface for Csound?  It can surely be
> done.)
>
>> > How did you guys learn bridge that gap?
>
> Lots of practice is the thing.  Play something in, see how
> it deviates from the pulse, tweak the notes that
> sound wrong.
>
>
>                                      Graham
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>




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> How have you guys learned to translate your intuitive musicality into your
> sequencing?
>
> I play gypsy violin some, boogie-woogie piano a bit, and can strum my way
> through pop/folk song chords on guitar, so I have a fair notion of what it
> takes to _play_ something that doesn't sound like cheap
> internet-step-recorded-MIDI, but I have little idea about how to codify that
> into numbers.


First, you can free the score of it's usual absolutely strict adherence to
precise rhythm.  We seldom hear of a great performance that each beat was
in exactly the right place.  Some drum machines simply stir in a small random
component to each event time.  I once had a drum box that had a knob for temp.
I found that a rock pattern would sound farm more 'human' when I moved the
knob back and forth a small amount in a sine motion, the peak of the tempo
curve being reached at the snare drum, or beats two and four, the lower
part moving through the bass drum, or first and third beats.

I saw a study of pop music somewhere on the net, where someone had graphed
analyzed tempos of various songs.  The tempos all either fluctuated greatly
through the course of the song, or were represented by a completely flat
line.  The difference comes from whether or not the drummer is listening to a
click track, or the band is forced to play along with a sequencer.

Another important area to concentrate on is the tedious inclusion of as
many parameters controlling each even as possible, which should normally
journey through some change in state through a phrase in order to support
the intent of the melody.  The most important of these is likely simple
volume, as a human performance (other than on certain keyboard instruments)
will normally vary quite a bit from note to note, and certainly across a phrase.

Note the the inclusion of a human recorded melody over otherwise rigid
computerized events can relieve the ear of the tedium and fatigue found in
mechanized performances.  This is what got pop music through the 80's.

Tobiah


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Lilith Bryant wrote:
> 
> I have a question, not specifically about csound, though potentially 
> useful for it.
> 
> How have you guys learned to translate your intuitive musicality into 
> your sequencing?
> 
> I play gypsy violin some, boogie-woogie piano a bit, and can strum my 
> way through pop/folk song chords on guitar, so I have a fair notion of 
> what it takes to _play_ something that doesn't sound like cheap 
> internet-step-recorded-MIDI, but I have little idea about how to codify 
> that into numbers.
> 
> How did you guys learn bridge that gap?
> 
> 

I guess that's a very deep philosophical question, about reality and our
description of it.  Usually descriptions are always very pale in comparison
to the original, just take words, "tree" is nothing compared to the one I
see when I look out of the window.

(Leaving aside for a moment that descriptions can also carry/produce
structures not present in reality before, like "there is a data format
called Patricia tree".)

This also applies to music, which basically is sound that changes in the
now. Normally you say, it changes in time, but our idea of time as a
one-dimensional line is very artificial, so I said "changes in the now",
even though this is not absolutely exact since this "now" extends into two
directions, into our memory of what has been played just before, and our
expectations of what might come, both as far as our brain permits, whose
automatic way of making memory and memory-based expectation is responsible
for all this mess.

So the problem is that the Westerner's civilization is possessed by writing,
and the possibility of encoding dynamic structures (speech or music) into
static ones (letters or notes), and this also has affected our way to deal
with these two fields of human activity, to the better when it comes to
complexity, to the worse when it comes to dealing with the involved
overhead, and also by bringing a decrease in spontaneity, social behavior,
...

To cut the story short, compare musics from places where they don't write
things down, they also have very complicated "compositions" (which were not
composed but evolved over the millennia). Consider this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8A1xXHxVms African Balafon 

Would be quite a funny idea that this guy might want to write his song down,
lol.

Well, the question then is, do you want to play music, or do you want to
write it down, or do you want a modern software solution where the computer
automatically handles all the numbers, and you tell it via the microphone
what you want, to later be able to manipulate all this from the highest
possible level. (Either intuitively graphical, or by code.)

In this case I would recommend to use one of the Csound pitchtrackers and
record the exact amplitude/frequency timeline of your music, bypassing the
either too simple or too cumbersome Midi notation. (Either too simple with
just 12 notes per octave, or too cumbersome with all the pitch bends.)

Btw the guy with the balafon uses a scale that most likely doesn't even have
a single octave in it. (Much less a fifth or so.) 

And I would stay away from numbers as much as possible, especially when it
comes to the temporal placement of the notes, as this really is what makes
Midi music sound cheap, and the solution to add some randomness is, well,
random, as compared to the human brain's ability to very precisely encode
and decode time patterns. (Just think about how neurons work, there each
pulse is exactly situated, depending on the surrounding ones, and I would be
surprised if someone told me that this wouldn't be so in larger patterns,
like music or speech.)

And listen to the balafon guy again. Can he play? And what numbers would you
need to write it down? (1,2,3,4 or 266144,302188,504133,708256?)

Lilith Bryant wrote:
> 
> I have a question, not specifically about csound, though potentially 
> useful for it.
> 
> How have you guys learned to translate your intuitive musicality into 
> your sequencing?
> 
> I play gypsy violin some, boogie-woogie piano a bit, and can strum my 
> way through pop/folk song chords on guitar, so I have a fair notion of 
> what it takes to _play_ something that doesn't sound like cheap 
> internet-step-recorded-MIDI, but I have little idea about how to codify 
> that into numbers.
> 

I don't know if this will help, but I find it useful to have an idea. A
musical idea, I mean. Which is closely allied to a feeling. Sometimes it may
start as a programming idea -- "I wonder how this DSP concept would sound."
But at a certain point, the intuition comes into play.

The second part of it is having some notion of how to develop ideas. I hear
a lot of electronic music in which the composer has a decent idea, but has
no clue how to develop it into a piece that has a beginning, a middle, and
an end. That's different from an inception, a continuation, and a cessation.

Music should tell a story. It should surprise, and also satisfy.

--Jim Aikin

> Music should tell a story.

Not always. To me music is not about narration: I expect music to effect 
my emotions and body in a non-intellectual way, and I definitely do not 
want it to talk to my imagination; only to my senses.

just my 2 cents :)

Stef





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That's a good remark. And sometimes you have such an flow of ideas that the
only possible way to transmit them is to realize them in realtime.

Also consicer that the concept of prologue, beginning, culmination, etc. is
a very classical one. It is really good, or it wouldn't have evolved and
been in use for such a long time, but you also can have an alternate
artistic view, that is usually labelled as modern. Like art consisting of
fragments, and the whole piece being some kind of iridescent picture of all
the artist's work.

Even more so in this internet society where you can't predict whether the
user wants to listen for 5 seconds or 5 minutes, but you want to transmit
your message to all of them as much as possible.

Anyway, nice to be in a postmodern epoch where everything coexists side by
side.

--



Jim Aikin wrote:
> 
> 
> I don't know if this will help, but I find it useful to have an idea. A
> musical idea, I mean. Which is closely allied to a feeling. Sometimes it
> may start as a programming idea -- "I wonder how this DSP concept would
> sound." But at a certain point, the intuition comes into play.
> 
> The second part of it is having some notion of how to develop ideas. I
> hear a lot of electronic music in which the composer has a decent idea,
> but has no clue how to develop it into a piece that has a beginning, a
> middle, and an end. That's different from an inception, a continuation,
> and a cessation.
> 
> Music should tell a story. It should surprise, and also satisfy.
> 
> --Jim Aikin
> 

Stéphane Rollandin wrote:
> 
>> Music should tell a story.
> 
> Not always. To me music is not about narration: I expect music to effect 
> my emotions and body in a non-intellectual way, and I definitely do not 
> want it to talk to my imagination; only to my senses.
> 
> 

I think possibly you're understanding the "tell a story" idea too narrowly.
I don't mean narration. What I mean is precisely what you're talking about.
A good story affects our emotions. If it doesn't, it fails as a story! By
"tell a story," what I mean is that good music leads us somewhere --
somewhere unexpected, and yet familiar. It has an emotional arc of some
sort, from opening statement to resolution.

On the other hand, it's also the case that the pendulum swings slowly
between abstract music (think Bach) and programmatic music (the Romantics),
and then back again to pure music (Cage, to take an extreme example). Maybe
the pendulum will swing again.

And yet, even in the Baroque period, a great deal of music was specifically
composed with narrative elements. Think of the Bach Cantatas, for example,
or Handel oratorios. Think of requiems, from Mozart to Britten.

I happen to like "pure," abstract music (such as Bach's keyboard music or a
Jon Hassell CD) a great deal. But I don't think we can ignore Wagner. The
arts enrich one another, and storytelling is one of the oldest and most
powerful of the arts. But I could as easily have said, "Music paints a
picture."

Here's an idea: Write some music that's directly inspired by the cave
paintings at Lascaux ... and don't tell anyone the source of the
inspiration.

--JA
-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Humanising-Compositions-tp26775341p27055506.html
Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



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>> Not always. To me music is not about narration: I expect music to effect
>> my emotions and body in a non-intellectual way, and I definitely do not
>> want it to talk to my imagination; only to my senses.
>
> I think possibly you're understanding the "tell a story" idea too narrowly.

No, I don't mean to limit what you call a story. I really think about 
something else. Examples below.

> I don't mean narration. What I mean is precisely what you're talking about.
> A good story affects our emotions. If it doesn't, it fails as a story! By
> "tell a story," what I mean is that good music leads us somewhere --
> somewhere unexpected, and yet familiar. It has an emotional arc of some
> sort, from opening statement to resolution.

That's narration, to me. Being lead somewhere emotionally, having 
opening statements and resolution; all these are narrative elements, 
albeit abstract ones.

An example of music devoid of narrative components yet very emotional 
and deep is indian classical music. This is the kind of music I refer to.

Other examples: jazz like Coltrane's latest works, Miles Davis' Bitches 
Brew.

Also, the techno music you get in hard-core raves has no narrative 
component. It's a mere sensorial experience.


> And yet, even in the Baroque period, a great deal of music was specifically
> composed with narrative elements. Think of the Bach Cantatas, for example,
> or Handel oratorios. Think of requiems, from Mozart to Britten.

I wouldn't consider Mozart's requiem narrative. It has progression in 
the sense that standard liturgic elements are in place, but precisely 
because of this external imposed structure, it is not a story per se, 
more an experience of shared grief and awe.

I would contrast this with Beethoven, a definite storyteller to me. Or 
Rachmaninov.


> I happen to like "pure," abstract music (such as Bach's keyboard music or a
> Jon Hassell CD) a great deal. But I don't think we can ignore Wagner. The
> arts enrich one another, and storytelling is one of the oldest and most
> powerful of the arts. But I could as easily have said, "Music paints a
> picture."

Sure, all arts enrich each other. Now the point I wanted to make is that 
the very specific realm of music that has no equivalent anywhere else is 
the way it can address in a pure and direct way our body and emotions. 
By pure I mean: not contaminated by any representation. Very much like 
walking in a forest in a winter morning or lying on a beach a warm 
summer night are experiences that somehow awake specifically and 
differently body sensations and spirit, music can awake emotions and 
body reactions with no aim nor reason, just as a natural impulse toward 
some otherwise ignored inner harmony.


Stef





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Just to bring the discussion back to specific implementation...
The t statement in the score could be used to make subtle changes in
note duration, as mentioned in this thread as turning the tempo knob
on a drum machine. Are there ways to make exponential tempo changes,
or to send a krate variable like an lfo to the tempo value? I think
I've only used it to make linear changes.
Also, I think using something like an envelope follower is a good way
to take a human sounding performance and map it to a different more
electronic sound.

A

On 1/7/10, Stéphane Rollandin  wrote:
>>> Not always. To me music is not about narration: I expect music to effect
>>> my emotions and body in a non-intellectual way, and I definitely do not
>>> want it to talk to my imagination; only to my senses.
>>
>> I think possibly you're understanding the "tell a story" idea too
>> narrowly.
>
> No, I don't mean to limit what you call a story. I really think about
> something else. Examples below.
>
>> I don't mean narration. What I mean is precisely what you're talking
>> about.
>> A good story affects our emotions. If it doesn't, it fails as a story! By
>> "tell a story," what I mean is that good music leads us somewhere --
>> somewhere unexpected, and yet familiar. It has an emotional arc of some
>> sort, from opening statement to resolution.
>
> That's narration, to me. Being lead somewhere emotionally, having
> opening statements and resolution; all these are narrative elements,
> albeit abstract ones.
>
> An example of music devoid of narrative components yet very emotional
> and deep is indian classical music. This is the kind of music I refer to.
>
> Other examples: jazz like Coltrane's latest works, Miles Davis' Bitches
> Brew.
>
> Also, the techno music you get in hard-core raves has no narrative
> component. It's a mere sensorial experience.
>
>
>> And yet, even in the Baroque period, a great deal of music was
>> specifically
>> composed with narrative elements. Think of the Bach Cantatas, for example,
>> or Handel oratorios. Think of requiems, from Mozart to Britten.
>
> I wouldn't consider Mozart's requiem narrative. It has progression in
> the sense that standard liturgic elements are in place, but precisely
> because of this external imposed structure, it is not a story per se,
> more an experience of shared grief and awe.
>
> I would contrast this with Beethoven, a definite storyteller to me. Or
> Rachmaninov.
>
>
>> I happen to like "pure," abstract music (such as Bach's keyboard music or
>> a
>> Jon Hassell CD) a great deal. But I don't think we can ignore Wagner. The
>> arts enrich one another, and storytelling is one of the oldest and most
>> powerful of the arts. But I could as easily have said, "Music paints a
>> picture."
>
> Sure, all arts enrich each other. Now the point I wanted to make is that
> the very specific realm of music that has no equivalent anywhere else is
> the way it can address in a pure and direct way our body and emotions.
> By pure I mean: not contaminated by any representation. Very much like
> walking in a forest in a winter morning or lying on a beach a warm
> summer night are experiences that somehow awake specifically and
> differently body sensations and spirit, music can awake emotions and
> body reactions with no aim nor reason, just as a natural impulse toward
> some otherwise ignored inner harmony.
>
>
> Stef
>
>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>

-- 
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Stéphane Rollandin wrote:
>>> Not always. To me music is not about narration: I expect music to effect
>>> my emotions and body in a non-intellectual way, and I definitely do not
>>> want it to talk to my imagination; only to my senses.
>>
>> I think possibly you're understanding the "tell a story" idea too 
>> narrowly.
> 
> No, I don't mean to limit what you call a story. I really think about 
> something else. Examples below.
> 

One way of broadening the meaning of "to tell a story," which may capture 
the original meaning as well as allow for some alternates, is this: that 
music resembles a living organism with a nervous system that is capable of 
learning. Few living organisms, as they go about the business of living, do 
exactly the same thing all day, or all week, or over a lifetime. Their 
behavior evolves, particularly in response to experiences. They *learn* 
about their experiences.

My favorite music is that which conveys a similar thing.. an evolution over 
time and in particular a sense that the music is undergoing some kind of 
transformation, possibly in reaction to its own events.

In some sense, storytelling may be a classical idea. But a composition by 
Pierre Boulez definitely "goes somewhere"! It has a beginning, middle, and end.

I dislike, although I can't ultimately judge, music which does not sound 
like a living organism---that is, which is repetitive, or unvaried, or 
non-fluid.

Mike


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Paulo Mouat wrote:
> That would require defining "repetitive", "unvaried" and "non-fluid" 
> and the scale at which those concepts should apply. 

That requires nothing of the sort. I stated there's a kind of music I don't 
like, and whether you are satisfied with the words I chose to describe that 
is entirely your business, not mine.


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I don't know much. For example I don't know any of the persons you mentioned,
and I don't care to learn about them. I'm more interested in the broader
picture. In a couple of decades none of them will be remembered any more,
but there will be much more knowledge about underlying structures that
nowadays we don't know much about.

For example, the background of what I said has to do with music not only
being a big picture, a long piece with beginning and end, but also being
something that has a certain sound, a certain style, and usually when I hear
something, after 5 seconds I know whether I like this style and sound or
not. And I have to. We live in a universe that is so much larger than we
that we can only perceive about 0.0001 % of what is there, so it is crucial
that we develop ways to judge the things we don't want as fast as possible,
to get rid of them, and have enough of our precious time left to dedicate it
to the precious stuff.

Probably this doesn't apply so much to people who live in a narrow
"composer's world", with only a handful of musicians that applaude to each
other, have a small audience, and don't care about balafons, gamelans,
shakuhachi, or the modern mainstream of house and other electronic music
that is at 99 % boring, but the rest still being an enrichment to what one
day may be called the human heritage of global music.

So, to make things more complicated, I really like repetitious things that
put me in a kind of trance, in a state of meditation, and I spend long hours
listening to that, which makes it even worse to think about the prospect of
having to sit before the computer for long times to compose numbers that
might make a better listening than those of one of my fellows.

Not that I'm averse to spending long hours in front of the computer to
compose numbers and logical structures to produce something, but only if
later I will have something better that relieves me of this burden. (Like a
software that composes automatically, for example, or a decent instrument
with a nice interface that is fun playing around with.)

Meaning, I'm not sure what you really do. I have read only a little bit of
what is posted here, and I find the discussion about your music philosophies
highly interesting, but I haven't really encountered much that tells me what
you really are about.

For example, me, I like to either listen or play, and have lots of
instruments which have broad possibilities but don't demand thinking when
you play them, as thinking and art are two different states of mind, for me
the instruments have to be as intuitive as possible, that's why I hate
composing, and also don't like to arrange samples and loops and stuff, as
this is something where your body is not in a musical mood, but rather
contorted and suppressed.

Maybe the basic question is about what to you the main point in making music
is. Is it the corporeal activity, is it the pleasure of listening to the
piece thereafter, or is it the admiration of your contemporaries. (Besides
from the intellectual excitement that programming the computer is to some of
us, but that one motivation does not necessarily adhere us just to music.)




cameron bobro wrote:
> 
> And what do you know... LOL. 
> 
> 
>