For me your guessing seems right... this is why pepole like Buzz Feiten and the 
guys at truetemperament.com have found some ways to correct the guitar tuning 
problems...
Additionally there are a lot of tunings possible (drop D, Open C, Open G, 
NST), a lot of string gauges/materials to choose, an infinite amount of string 
height and neck bow possible... at the end is impossible to have a guitar 
perfectly tuned on all the neck... 


PS: I love to play fretless bass and out of tune notes add "color" eh eh eh

>----Messaggio originale----
>Da: Victor.Lazzarini@nuim.ie
>Data: 22/01/2010 13.46
>A: 
>Ogg: [Csnd] [OT] guitar tuning
>
>Something OT that just occurred to me.
>
>Many guitarists I have observed (from both classical guitar and  
>electric/rock/jazz guitar background) seem to tune their guitars using  
>the harmonic series. They would tune their strings in the standard  
>tuning starting with a 3  perfectly tuned 4/3  fourths, from 6th  
>string to the 3rd string. Then some will go from  6th to the 1st, 2  
>octaves 4:1, then from 1st to the second, a 3/4 fourth. Others would  
>tune the 2nd by fretting a major 3rd in the 3rd string and then tune  
>the 1st 4:3.
>
>I have not looked into the positioning of frets, but l am guessing  
>they would be logarithmically spaced to give 12 intervals of equal  
>spacing from the open string to the 12th fret. So in this case:
>
>(a) 2nd string will not be 1:1 unison with the 4th fret on the 3rd  
>string (first tuning).
>
>((4/3)^3)*(2^1/3))/3 = 0.99
>
>(b) the 1st string in the second tuning will not be a 4:1 beatless  
>octave.
>
>((4/3)^3)*(2^(1/3))*(4/3) = 3.98the
>
>However if the frets are not equal-tempered, and say, they are just- 
>spaced giving perfect 3rds, 4ths and 5ths, we have
>
>(a) ((4/3)^3)*(5/4)/3 = 0.98 (ouch!)
>
>(b)  ((4/3)^3)*(5/4)*(4/3) = 3.95  (ouch too!)
>
>
>In any case, neither looks like a good way of tuning the guitar,  
>although the first tuning seems better.
>
>Is my reasoning wrong? Any comments? It's something that always  
>puzzled me and I had never had clear answers.
>
>Regards
>
>Victor
>
>
>
>
>Send bugs reports to this list.
>To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe 
csound"
>




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Tuning on the guitar always seemed to me to a bit cagey. I usually
tune by ear but I'll also alter the tuning slightly depending on the
key I'm playing in too. The more I play the more frustrated I get with
tuning, especially when playing up along the neck as every time you
press on the string you sharpen them slightly. I know luthiers tackle
this problem by compensating the position of the saddle but even this
seems to be more trial and error than an exact science.

2010/1/22 vallste@libero.it :
> For me your guessing seems right... this is why pepole like Buzz Feiten and the
> guys at truetemperament.com have found some ways to correct the guitar tuning
> problems...
> Additionally there are a lot of tunings possible (drop D, Open C, Open G,
> NST), a lot of string gauges/materials to choose, an infinite amount of string
> height and neck bow possible... at the end is impossible to have a guitar
> perfectly tuned on all the neck...
>
>
> PS: I love to play fretless bass and out of tune notes add "color" eh eh eh
>
>>----Messaggio originale----
>>Da: Victor.Lazzarini@nuim.ie
>>Data: 22/01/2010 13.46
>>A: 
>>Ogg: [Csnd] [OT] guitar tuning
>>
>>Something OT that just occurred to me.
>>
>>Many guitarists I have observed (from both classical guitar and
>>electric/rock/jazz guitar background) seem to tune their guitars using
>>the harmonic series. They would tune their strings in the standard
>>tuning starting with a 3  perfectly tuned 4/3  fourths, from 6th
>>string to the 3rd string. Then some will go from  6th to the 1st, 2
>>octaves 4:1, then from 1st to the second, a 3/4 fourth. Others would
>>tune the 2nd by fretting a major 3rd in the 3rd string and then tune
>>the 1st 4:3.
>>
>>I have not looked into the positioning of frets, but l am guessing
>>they would be logarithmically spaced to give 12 intervals of equal
>>spacing from the open string to the 12th fret. So in this case:
>>
>>(a) 2nd string will not be 1:1 unison with the 4th fret on the 3rd
>>string (first tuning).
>>
>>((4/3)^3)*(2^1/3))/3 = 0.99
>>
>>(b) the 1st string in the second tuning will not be a 4:1 beatless
>>octave.
>>
>>((4/3)^3)*(2^(1/3))*(4/3) = 3.98the
>>
>>However if the frets are not equal-tempered, and say, they are just-
>>spaced giving perfect 3rds, 4ths and 5ths, we have
>>
>>(a) ((4/3)^3)*(5/4)/3 = 0.98 (ouch!)
>>
>>(b)  ((4/3)^3)*(5/4)*(4/3) = 3.95  (ouch too!)
>>
>>
>>In any case, neither looks like a good way of tuning the guitar,
>>although the first tuning seems better.
>>
>>Is my reasoning wrong? Any comments? It's something that always
>>puzzled me and I had never had clear answers.
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>Victor
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Send bugs reports to this list.
>>To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>>
>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>


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   A properly setup/designed guitar will balance the tuning and intonation issues with proper position of the bridge or saddles.  The best possible setup, however only works for a specific guitar with specific string gauges tuned to specific pitches.  The "best" setup balances the strings' tensions and lengths to make the intonation along the fretboard as even as possible, also compensating for a moderate amount of finger pressure on the frets.  A common test is to compare the harmonic at the 12th fret with the fretted note at the 12th fret.  These should be in unison.  However, once a 'best' setup is achieved, if the strings are replaced with different gauges, the intonation will be all wrong.  Even the guitars with splayed frets such as Charlie Hunter's will have issues with intonation if the saddles are not in the "best" position for the given strings and tuning.  As with all real instruments there is a bit of compromise, and the performer must do
 their best with the instruments shortcomings.  IMO, it is the imperfections of real instruments which give them their character, and make music beautiful.(Note: I also believe that beautiful music can be made with synthesized instruments, so there is no need to go on a tangent about all of that.)

                           Mark  

--- On Fri, 1/22/10, Rory Walsh  wrote:

> From: Rory Walsh 
> Subject: [Csnd] Re: R: [OT] guitar tuning
> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
> Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 7:40 AM
> Tuning on the guitar always seemed to
> me to a bit cagey. I usually
> tune by ear but I'll also alter the tuning slightly
> depending on the
> key I'm playing in too. The more I play the more frustrated
> I get with
> tuning, especially when playing up along the neck as every
> time you
> press on the string you sharpen them slightly. I know
> luthiers tackle
> this problem by compensating the position of the saddle but
> even this
> seems to be more trial and error than an exact science.
> 
> 2010/1/22 vallste@libero.it
> :
> > For me your guessing seems right... this is why pepole
> like Buzz Feiten and the
> > guys at truetemperament.com have found some ways to
> correct the guitar tuning
> > problems...
> > Additionally there are a lot of tunings possible (drop
> D, Open C, Open G,
> > NST), a lot of string gauges/materials to choose, an
> infinite amount of string
> > height and neck bow possible... at the end is
> impossible to have a guitar
> > perfectly tuned on all the neck...
> >
> >
> > PS: I love to play fretless bass and out of tune notes
> add "color" eh eh eh
> >
> >>----Messaggio originale----
> >>Da: Victor.Lazzarini@nuim.ie
> >>Data: 22/01/2010 13.46
> >>A: 
> >>Ogg: [Csnd] [OT] guitar tuning
> >>
> >>Something OT that just occurred to me.
> >>
> >>Many guitarists I have observed (from both
> classical guitar and
> >>electric/rock/jazz guitar background) seem to tune
> their guitars using
> >>the harmonic series. They would tune their strings
> in the standard
> >>tuning starting with a 3  perfectly tuned 4/3
>  fourths, from 6th
> >>string to the 3rd string. Then some will go from
>  6th to the 1st, 2
> >>octaves 4:1, then from 1st to the second, a 3/4
> fourth. Others would
> >>tune the 2nd by fretting a major 3rd in the 3rd
> string and then tune
> >>the 1st 4:3.
> >>
> >>I have not looked into the positioning of frets,
> but l am guessing
> >>they would be logarithmically spaced to give 12
> intervals of equal
> >>spacing from the open string to the 12th fret. So
> in this case:
> >>
> >>(a) 2nd string will not be 1:1 unison with the 4th
> fret on the 3rd
> >>string (first tuning).
> >>
> >>((4/3)^3)*(2^1/3))/3 = 0.99
> >>
> >>(b) the 1st string in the second tuning will not be
> a 4:1 beatless
> >>octave.
> >>
> >>((4/3)^3)*(2^(1/3))*(4/3) = 3.98the
> >>
> >>However if the frets are not equal-tempered, and
> say, they are just-
> >>spaced giving perfect 3rds, 4ths and 5ths, we have
> >>
> >>(a) ((4/3)^3)*(5/4)/3 = 0.98 (ouch!)
> >>
> >>(b)  ((4/3)^3)*(5/4)*(4/3) = 3.95  (ouch too!)
> >>
> >>
> >>In any case, neither looks like a good way of
> tuning the guitar,
> >>although the first tuning seems better.
> >>
> >>Is my reasoning wrong? Any comments? It's something
> that always
> >>puzzled me and I had never had clear answers.
> >>
> >>Regards
> >>
> >>Victor
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Send bugs reports to this list.
> >>To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk
> with body "unsubscribe
> > csound"
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Send bugs reports to this list.
> > To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk
> with body "unsubscribe csound"
> >
> 
> 
> Send bugs reports to this list.
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>(Note: I also believe that beautiful music can be made with synthesized instruments

Anyone who doesn't agree with that is probably on this mailing list by mistake!


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