Why not creating a "f 0 -1"?

Maybe it has been already discussed... in this case sorry for this question...

>----Messaggio originale----
>Da: michael.gogins@gmail.com
>Data: 23/01/2010 12.55
>A: 
>Ogg: [Csnd] Re: Infinite Duration Proposal
>
>-1 duration in the score is indefinite.
>
>alwayson opcode in the orchestra header is indefinite.
>
>Regards,
>Mike
>
>On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Steven Yi  wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I'm thinking of a change to allow instruments of infinite duration.
>> The idea would be to have something like this:
>>
>> i1 0 x 0 1 2 3 4 5
>> i2 0 x 0 1 2 3 4 5
>>
>> where the x would denote that this instrument instance is meant to be
>> infinite in duration.  There would be a change to the engine then to
>> have a flag on the instrument instance and to keep running while
>> either there is no more score as well as no more instrument instances
>> with unending duration.  This seems like it would be useful for
>> projects that are going to be run more like an application (i.e. a
>> QuteCsound project) or any kind of long running installation.
>>
>> As far as I'm aware, the only way to specify long running projects up
>> until now has been to use a really long duration.  This has worked but
>> has always seemed strange to me to look at "i1 0 336000000 1 2 3 4 5"
>> or something like that.
>>
>> Any thoughts?  Suggestions for better syntax than 'x'?  Or perhaps is
>> this altogether unnecessary?
>>
>> Thanks!
>> steven
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe 
csound"
>>
>
>
>
>-- 
>Michael Gogins
>Irreducible Productions
>http://www.michael-gogins.com
>Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>
>
>Send bugs reports to this list.
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csound"




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Hi All,

I already knew about both ihold and negative duration and neither
works.  I looked at the source code of the alwayson opcode and all it
does is use -1 for duration.  I have attached examples that use ihold
and negative duration as well as a normal running project.

As far as I understand, held notes are only held for the duration of a
score.  If the only notes are held, the score duration is considered 0
and csound immediately turns off the project (as far as I understand).
 This is why I implied changing the engine to change its exit
criteria.

So, unless there's some other way I'm unaware of, there is still no
other way except to specify a very long duration for a project.

steven

On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 8:47 AM, vallste@libero.it  wrote:
> Why not creating a "f 0 -1"?
>
> Maybe it has been already discussed... in this case sorry for this question...
>
>>----Messaggio originale----
>>Da: michael.gogins@gmail.com
>>Data: 23/01/2010 12.55
>>A: 
>>Ogg: [Csnd] Re: Infinite Duration Proposal
>>
>>-1 duration in the score is indefinite.
>>
>>alwayson opcode in the orchestra header is indefinite.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Mike
>>
>>On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Steven Yi  wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I'm thinking of a change to allow instruments of infinite duration.
>>> The idea would be to have something like this:
>>>
>>> i1 0 x 0 1 2 3 4 5
>>> i2 0 x 0 1 2 3 4 5
>>>
>>> where the x would denote that this instrument instance is meant to be
>>> infinite in duration.  There would be a change to the engine then to
>>> have a flag on the instrument instance and to keep running while
>>> either there is no more score as well as no more instrument instances
>>> with unending duration.  This seems like it would be useful for
>>> projects that are going to be run more like an application (i.e. a
>>> QuteCsound project) or any kind of long running installation.
>>>
>>> As far as I'm aware, the only way to specify long running projects up
>>> until now has been to use a really long duration.  This has worked but
>>> has always seemed strange to me to look at "i1 0 336000000 1 2 3 4 5"
>>> or something like that.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?  Suggestions for better syntax than 'x'?  Or perhaps is
>>> this altogether unnecessary?
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>> steven
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Michael Gogins
>>Irreducible Productions
>>http://www.michael-gogins.com
>>Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>
>>
>>Send bugs reports to this list.
>>To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>
>
>
>
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What about  f0  with a very large duration?

On 23 Jan 2010, at 15:28, Steven Yi wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I already knew about both ihold and negative duration and neither
> works.  I looked at the source code of the alwayson opcode and all it
> does is use -1 for duration.  I have attached examples that use ihold
> and negative duration as well as a normal running project.
>
> As far as I understand, held notes are only held for the duration of a
> score.  If the only notes are held, the score duration is considered 0
> and csound immediately turns off the project (as far as I understand).
> This is why I implied changing the engine to change its exit
> criteria.
>
> So, unless there's some other way I'm unaware of, there is still no
> other way except to specify a very long duration for a project.
>
> steven
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 8:47 AM, vallste@libero.it  
>  wrote:
>> Why not creating a "f 0 -1"?
>>
>> Maybe it has been already discussed... in this case sorry for this  
>> question...
>>
>>> ----Messaggio originale----
>>> Da: michael.gogins@gmail.com
>>> Data: 23/01/2010 12.55
>>> A: 
>>> Ogg: [Csnd] Re: Infinite Duration Proposal
>>>
>>> -1 duration in the score is indefinite.
>>>
>>> alwayson opcode in the orchestra header is indefinite.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Steven Yi   
>>> wrote:
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> I'm thinking of a change to allow instruments of infinite duration.
>>>> The idea would be to have something like this:
>>>>
>>>> i1 0 x 0 1 2 3 4 5
>>>> i2 0 x 0 1 2 3 4 5
>>>>
>>>> where the x would denote that this instrument instance is meant  
>>>> to be
>>>> infinite in duration.  There would be a change to the engine then  
>>>> to
>>>> have a flag on the instrument instance and to keep running while
>>>> either there is no more score as well as no more instrument  
>>>> instances
>>>> with unending duration.  This seems like it would be useful for
>>>> projects that are going to be run more like an application (i.e. a
>>>> QuteCsound project) or any kind of long running installation.
>>>>
>>>> As far as I'm aware, the only way to specify long running  
>>>> projects up
>>>> until now has been to use a really long duration.  This has  
>>>> worked but
>>>> has always seemed strange to me to look at "i1 0 336000000 1 2 3  
>>>> 4 5"
>>>> or something like that.
>>>>
>>>> Any thoughts?  Suggestions for better syntax than 'x'?  Or  
>>>> perhaps is
>>>> this altogether unnecessary?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>> steven
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>>> "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Gogins
>>> Irreducible Productions
>>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>> "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> "unsubscribe csound"
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Yes, large durations work, but in my mind it's a workaround to a
problem and not a real solution.  The motivation behind all this is
two-fold, one the idea of long-running installations (i.e. more than a
year) and two, that from the perspective of a developer using an audio
engine, I am thinking that there should be ways to make the engine run
and have active instances of instruments without need for scheduling,
just turn on an instrument.

It seems that there is no direct solution currently and only the
long-duration workaround.  I am going to do some investigation of the
engine sometime in the next couple of weeks to see how exactly
everything works.  I'll also write back here before I do any coding on
this if I do end up spending the time on it.

Thanks everyone for your replies!
steven

On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Victor Lazzarini
 wrote:
> What about  f0  with a very large duration?
>
> On 23 Jan 2010, at 15:28, Steven Yi wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I already knew about both ihold and negative duration and neither
>> works.  I looked at the source code of the alwayson opcode and all it
>> does is use -1 for duration.  I have attached examples that use ihold
>> and negative duration as well as a normal running project.
>>
>> As far as I understand, held notes are only held for the duration of a
>> score.  If the only notes are held, the score duration is considered 0
>> and csound immediately turns off the project (as far as I understand).
>> This is why I implied changing the engine to change its exit
>> criteria.
>>
>> So, unless there's some other way I'm unaware of, there is still no
>> other way except to specify a very long duration for a project.
>>
>> steven
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 8:47 AM, vallste@libero.it 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Why not creating a "f 0 -1"?
>>>
>>> Maybe it has been already discussed... in this case sorry for this
>>> question...
>>>
>>>> ----Messaggio originale----
>>>> Da: michael.gogins@gmail.com
>>>> Data: 23/01/2010 12.55
>>>> A: 
>>>> Ogg: [Csnd] Re: Infinite Duration Proposal
>>>>
>>>> -1 duration in the score is indefinite.
>>>>
>>>> alwayson opcode in the orchestra header is indefinite.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Steven Yi  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm thinking of a change to allow instruments of infinite duration.
>>>>> The idea would be to have something like this:
>>>>>
>>>>> i1 0 x 0 1 2 3 4 5
>>>>> i2 0 x 0 1 2 3 4 5
>>>>>
>>>>> where the x would denote that this instrument instance is meant to be
>>>>> infinite in duration.  There would be a change to the engine then to
>>>>> have a flag on the instrument instance and to keep running while
>>>>> either there is no more score as well as no more instrument instances
>>>>> with unending duration.  This seems like it would be useful for
>>>>> projects that are going to be run more like an application (i.e. a
>>>>> QuteCsound project) or any kind of long running installation.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as I'm aware, the only way to specify long running projects up
>>>>> until now has been to use a really long duration.  This has worked but
>>>>> has always seemed strange to me to look at "i1 0 336000000 1 2 3 4 5"
>>>>> or something like that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any thoughts?  Suggestions for better syntax than 'x'?  Or perhaps is
>>>>> this altogether unnecessary?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>> steven
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>
>>> csound"
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Michael Gogins
>>>> Irreducible Productions
>>>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>>>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>>>
>>> csound"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
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>>> csound"
>>
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>
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Yes,
I routinely use scores like

#define SCORELEN # 84600 #		; set length of score
i400	1	$SCORELEN	; master audio out
... and more "always on" instr calls like that

I think that keeping Csound running for a year might not actually work
without resetting the kr "counter". My understanding of this may not
be completely precise, but I thought that Csound increment a counter
on each kr pass, and that there is a maximum value for this counter
variable (depending on bit depth for representing the number). So
maximum running time for Csound is dependant on kr (and possibly also
dependant on the floats or doubles Csound version). Resetting the
counter automatically when it reaches max might lead to unexpected
behaviour, as any score events might possibly be triggered once every
"max running time" seconds instead of only once. But maybe it could be
possible to reset the counter by means of a score opcode, optionally
clearing any pending intr events in the same operation.
As I said, my understanding of this may not be completely precise, so
take it just as my 2cents....

I did calculate the maximum runing time for Csound when I set up the
Flyndre installation, and I seem to recall it was in the ballpark of a
few weeks. So for that installation I restart Csound once every week
or so.

all best
Oeyvind


2010/1/23 Steven Yi :
> Hi All,
>
> I already knew about both ihold and negative duration and neither
> works.  I looked at the source code of the alwayson opcode and all it
> does is use -1 for duration.  I have attached examples that use ihold
> and negative duration as well as a normal running project.
>
> As far as I understand, held notes are only held for the duration of a
> score.  If the only notes are held, the score duration is considered 0
> and csound immediately turns off the project (as far as I understand).
>  This is why I implied changing the engine to change its exit
> criteria.
>
> So, unless there's some other way I'm unaware of, there is still no
> other way except to specify a very long duration for a project.
>
> steven
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 8:47 AM, vallste@libero.it  wrote:
>> Why not creating a "f 0 -1"?
>>
>> Maybe it has been already discussed... in this case sorry for this question...
>>
>>>----Messaggio originale----
>>>Da: michael.gogins@gmail.com
>>>Data: 23/01/2010 12.55
>>>A: 
>>>Ogg: [Csnd] Re: Infinite Duration Proposal
>>>
>>>-1 duration in the score is indefinite.
>>>
>>>alwayson opcode in the orchestra header is indefinite.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Mike
>>>
>>>On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Steven Yi  wrote:
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> I'm thinking of a change to allow instruments of infinite duration.
>>>> The idea would be to have something like this:
>>>>
>>>> i1 0 x 0 1 2 3 4 5
>>>> i2 0 x 0 1 2 3 4 5
>>>>
>>>> where the x would denote that this instrument instance is meant to be
>>>> infinite in duration.  There would be a change to the engine then to
>>>> have a flag on the instrument instance and to keep running while
>>>> either there is no more score as well as no more instrument instances
>>>> with unending duration.  This seems like it would be useful for
>>>> projects that are going to be run more like an application (i.e. a
>>>> QuteCsound project) or any kind of long running installation.
>>>>
>>>> As far as I'm aware, the only way to specify long running projects up
>>>> until now has been to use a really long duration.  This has worked but
>>>> has always seemed strange to me to look at "i1 0 336000000 1 2 3 4 5"
>>>> or something like that.
>>>>
>>>> Any thoughts?  Suggestions for better syntax than 'x'?  Or perhaps is
>>>> this altogether unnecessary?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>> steven
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Michael Gogins
>>>Irreducible Productions
>>>http://www.michael-gogins.com
>>>Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>>
>>>
>>>Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
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>
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Hi All,

Thanks for continuing the discussion.  However, extending the duration
or setting a long duration is not what I'm looking for. It's sort of
partly a conceptual thing to modify csound to have the ability to be
in a simple running state regardless of score.  When I think of using
an audio engine for a piece of music or audio software, most engines
have a start and stop (i.e. Max, PD, SuperCollider, other engines for
video game software).  If I was to create an audio engine for a piece
of software, I would start with this as the norm and overlay a score
system on top of it to turn the score system off when it is done but
not the engine (unless I configured it to also do so).

Within Csound work alone (meaning using CSD), I'd like to have a way
to just say, "turn this instrument on and keep running".  I don't want
to put in a duration as it is conceptually not what I am doing.
Outside of Csound, using it as an underlying audio engine, I'd like to
say, "turn on the engine and keep running".

I think this would only extend the possibilities for using Csound.
Imagine also a live coding scenario:

1. Start Engine
2. Send instrument definitions to Csound, parser reads input and adds
to instrument list
3. Send a note to Csound to turn on instrument
4. Experiment with sounds
5. Send and updated instrument definition to Csound
6. Send a note to re-turn on instrument
7. Experiment with sounds
8. Stop Engine

This kind of thing could be expressible if duration is optional. (I
believe this also maps closely to SuperCollider style usage with
SynthDefs).

For myself, I am also currently working on blue and MIDI.  Part of the
scenarios I am thinking is that in sequencing software, often times
the engine is continually running.  When the score of a sequencer is
not running, the user can still play MIDI input and have it route to
instruments to play and experiment with. When the score is on, it is
an additional part running while the main audio engine is stil
ongoing.  I am drafting some ideas about this with blue where the
Csound engine would be ongoing with blue sending score events to
csound and having the ability to set the engine to just run makes
sense to me for this scenario.

Hopefully this all helps make sense of the proposal for infinite
duration (vs. long duration).

Thanks!
steven


On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Oeyvind Brandtsegg  wrote:
> Yes,
> I routinely use scores like
>
> #define SCORELEN # 84600 #              ; set length of score
> i400    1       $SCORELEN       ; master audio out
> ... and more "always on" instr calls like that
>
> I think that keeping Csound running for a year might not actually work
> without resetting the kr "counter". My understanding of this may not
> be completely precise, but I thought that Csound increment a counter
> on each kr pass, and that there is a maximum value for this counter
> variable (depending on bit depth for representing the number). So
> maximum running time for Csound is dependant on kr (and possibly also
> dependant on the floats or doubles Csound version). Resetting the
> counter automatically when it reaches max might lead to unexpected
> behaviour, as any score events might possibly be triggered once every
> "max running time" seconds instead of only once. But maybe it could be
> possible to reset the counter by means of a score opcode, optionally
> clearing any pending intr events in the same operation.
> As I said, my understanding of this may not be completely precise, so
> take it just as my 2cents....
>
> I did calculate the maximum runing time for Csound when I set up the
> Flyndre installation, and I seem to recall it was in the ballpark of a
> few weeks. So for that installation I restart Csound once every week
> or so.
>
> all best
> Oeyvind
>
>
> 2010/1/23 Steven Yi :
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I already knew about both ihold and negative duration and neither
>> works.  I looked at the source code of the alwayson opcode and all it
>> does is use -1 for duration.  I have attached examples that use ihold
>> and negative duration as well as a normal running project.
>>
>> As far as I understand, held notes are only held for the duration of a
>> score.  If the only notes are held, the score duration is considered 0
>> and csound immediately turns off the project (as far as I understand).
>>  This is why I implied changing the engine to change its exit
>> criteria.
>>
>> So, unless there's some other way I'm unaware of, there is still no
>> other way except to specify a very long duration for a project.
>>
>> steven
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 8:47 AM, vallste@libero.it  wrote:
>>> Why not creating a "f 0 -1"?
>>>
>>> Maybe it has been already discussed... in this case sorry for this question...
>>>
>>>>----Messaggio originale----
>>>>Da: michael.gogins@gmail.com
>>>>Data: 23/01/2010 12.55
>>>>A: 
>>>>Ogg: [Csnd] Re: Infinite Duration Proposal
>>>>
>>>>-1 duration in the score is indefinite.
>>>>
>>>>alwayson opcode in the orchestra header is indefinite.
>>>>
>>>>Regards,
>>>>Mike
>>>>
>>>>On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Steven Yi  wrote:
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm thinking of a change to allow instruments of infinite duration.
>>>>> The idea would be to have something like this:
>>>>>
>>>>> i1 0 x 0 1 2 3 4 5
>>>>> i2 0 x 0 1 2 3 4 5
>>>>>
>>>>> where the x would denote that this instrument instance is meant to be
>>>>> infinite in duration.  There would be a change to the engine then to
>>>>> have a flag on the instrument instance and to keep running while
>>>>> either there is no more score as well as no more instrument instances
>>>>> with unending duration.  This seems like it would be useful for
>>>>> projects that are going to be run more like an application (i.e. a
>>>>> QuteCsound project) or any kind of long running installation.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as I'm aware, the only way to specify long running projects up
>>>>> until now has been to use a really long duration.  This has worked but
>>>>> has always seemed strange to me to look at "i1 0 336000000 1 2 3 4 5"
>>>>> or something like that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any thoughts?  Suggestions for better syntax than 'x'?  Or perhaps is
>>>>> this altogether unnecessary?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>> steven
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>>> csound"
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Michael Gogins
>>>>Irreducible Productions
>>>>http://www.michael-gogins.com
>>>>Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>>> csound"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
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>>
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Hi, Steven.

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 6:35 PM, Steven Yi  wrote:
> 1. Start Engine
> 2. Send instrument definitions to Csound, parser reads input and adds
> to instrument list
> 3. Send a note to Csound to turn on instrument
> 4. Experiment with sounds
> 5. Send and updated instrument definition to Csound
> 6. Send a note to re-turn on instrument
> 7. Experiment with sounds
> 8. Stop Engine

I have the impression this would be not only impossible but a
different question; to change instrument definitions for a running
instance? On the other hand, I would personally love it; I'm now
adding a loop function to Rationale, and it would be great to be able
to change the instruments for each iteration. I can just stop and
start the engine over and over, but it takes a second or two.

>
> This kind of thing could be expressible if duration is optional. (I
> believe this also maps closely to SuperCollider style usage with
> SynthDefs).
>
> For myself, I am also currently working on blue and MIDI.  Part of the
> scenarios I am thinking is that in sequencing software, often times
> the engine is continually running.  When the score of a sequencer is
> not running, the user can still play MIDI input and have it route to
> instruments to play and experiment with. When the score is on, it is
> an additional part running while the main audio engine is stil
> ongoing.  I am drafting some ideas about this with blue where the
> Csound engine would be ongoing with blue sending score events to
> csound and having the ability to set the engine to just run makes
> sense to me for this scenario.

I have a scrub function in Rationale, where, if the user enters SCRUB
mode, a Csound instance starts and waits for notes, all of which have
infinite duration of course. In SCRUB mode, the user can't actually
play the score, though, because it was just too confusing for me. I'd
like to add this kind of feature, where an instance starts every time
a change is made, and any added or dragged note sounds in real time.

I might not be talking about the same thing as you, because I don't
see optional duration having much influence over either my looping or
note adding ideas.

-Chuckk

-- 
http://www.badmuthahubbard.com


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Could it be done this way?

If there is a score event:
e -1

The engine will run until the maximum possible duration and reset from
0 again printing a message, but without repeating the score?

I would also like this to be possible.

Cheers,
Andres

On 1/24/10, Chuckk Hubbard  wrote:
> Hi, Steven.
>
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 6:35 PM, Steven Yi  wrote:
>> 1. Start Engine
>> 2. Send instrument definitions to Csound, parser reads input and adds
>> to instrument list
>> 3. Send a note to Csound to turn on instrument
>> 4. Experiment with sounds
>> 5. Send and updated instrument definition to Csound
>> 6. Send a note to re-turn on instrument
>> 7. Experiment with sounds
>> 8. Stop Engine
>
> I have the impression this would be not only impossible but a
> different question; to change instrument definitions for a running
> instance? On the other hand, I would personally love it; I'm now
> adding a loop function to Rationale, and it would be great to be able
> to change the instruments for each iteration. I can just stop and
> start the engine over and over, but it takes a second or two.
>
>>
>> This kind of thing could be expressible if duration is optional. (I
>> believe this also maps closely to SuperCollider style usage with
>> SynthDefs).
>>
>> For myself, I am also currently working on blue and MIDI.  Part of the
>> scenarios I am thinking is that in sequencing software, often times
>> the engine is continually running.  When the score of a sequencer is
>> not running, the user can still play MIDI input and have it route to
>> instruments to play and experiment with. When the score is on, it is
>> an additional part running while the main audio engine is stil
>> ongoing.  I am drafting some ideas about this with blue where the
>> Csound engine would be ongoing with blue sending score events to
>> csound and having the ability to set the engine to just run makes
>> sense to me for this scenario.
>
> I have a scrub function in Rationale, where, if the user enters SCRUB
> mode, a Csound instance starts and waits for notes, all of which have
> infinite duration of course. In SCRUB mode, the user can't actually
> play the score, though, because it was just too confusing for me. I'd
> like to add this kind of feature, where an instance starts every time
> a change is made, and any added or dragged note sounds in real time.
>
> I might not be talking about the same thing as you, because I don't
> see optional duration having much influence over either my looping or
> note adding ideas.
>
> -Chuckk
>
> --
> http://www.badmuthahubbard.com
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"


-- 


Andrés


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I like your proposal a lot, esp. number 5.

Victor
On 24 Jan 2010, at 16:35, Steven Yi wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Thanks for continuing the discussion.  However, extending the duration
> or setting a long duration is not what I'm looking for. It's sort of
> partly a conceptual thing to modify csound to have the ability to be
> in a simple running state regardless of score.  When I think of using
> an audio engine for a piece of music or audio software, most engines
> have a start and stop (i.e. Max, PD, SuperCollider, other engines for
> video game software).  If I was to create an audio engine for a piece
> of software, I would start with this as the norm and overlay a score
> system on top of it to turn the score system off when it is done but
> not the engine (unless I configured it to also do so).
>
> Within Csound work alone (meaning using CSD), I'd like to have a way
> to just say, "turn this instrument on and keep running".  I don't want
> to put in a duration as it is conceptually not what I am doing.
> Outside of Csound, using it as an underlying audio engine, I'd like to
> say, "turn on the engine and keep running".
>
> I think this would only extend the possibilities for using Csound.
> Imagine also a live coding scenario:
>
> 1. Start Engine
> 2. Send instrument definitions to Csound, parser reads input and adds
> to instrument list
> 3. Send a note to Csound to turn on instrument
> 4. Experiment with sounds
> 5. Send and updated instrument definition to Csound
> 6. Send a note to re-turn on instrument
> 7. Experiment with sounds
> 8. Stop Engine
>
> This kind of thing could be expressible if duration is optional. (I
> believe this also maps closely to SuperCollider style usage with
> SynthDefs).
>
> For myself, I am also currently working on blue and MIDI.  Part of the
> scenarios I am thinking is that in sequencing software, often times
> the engine is continually running.  When the score of a sequencer is
> not running, the user can still play MIDI input and have it route to
> instruments to play and experiment with. When the score is on, it is
> an additional part running while the main audio engine is stil
> ongoing.  I am drafting some ideas about this with blue where the
> Csound engine would be ongoing with blue sending score events to
> csound and having the ability to set the engine to just run makes
> sense to me for this scenario.
>
> Hopefully this all helps make sense of the proposal for infinite
> duration (vs. long duration).
>
> Thanks!
> steven
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Oeyvind Brandtsegg  > wrote:
>> Yes,
>> I routinely use scores like
>>
>> #define SCORELEN # 84600 #              ; set length of score
>> i400    1       $SCORELEN       ; master audio out
>> ... and more "always on" instr calls like that
>>
>> I think that keeping Csound running for a year might not actually  
>> work
>> without resetting the kr "counter". My understanding of this may not
>> be completely precise, but I thought that Csound increment a counter
>> on each kr pass, and that there is a maximum value for this counter
>> variable (depending on bit depth for representing the number). So
>> maximum running time for Csound is dependant on kr (and possibly also
>> dependant on the floats or doubles Csound version). Resetting the
>> counter automatically when it reaches max might lead to unexpected
>> behaviour, as any score events might possibly be triggered once every
>> "max running time" seconds instead of only once. But maybe it could  
>> be
>> possible to reset the counter by means of a score opcode, optionally
>> clearing any pending intr events in the same operation.
>> As I said, my understanding of this may not be completely precise, so
>> take it just as my 2cents....
>>
>> I did calculate the maximum runing time for Csound when I set up the
>> Flyndre installation, and I seem to recall it was in the ballpark  
>> of a
>> few weeks. So for that installation I restart Csound once every week
>> or so.
>>
>> all best
>> Oeyvind
>>
>>
>> 2010/1/23 Steven Yi :
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I already knew about both ihold and negative duration and neither
>>> works.  I looked at the source code of the alwayson opcode and all  
>>> it
>>> does is use -1 for duration.  I have attached examples that use  
>>> ihold
>>> and negative duration as well as a normal running project.
>>>
>>> As far as I understand, held notes are only held for the duration  
>>> of a
>>> score.  If the only notes are held, the score duration is  
>>> considered 0
>>> and csound immediately turns off the project (as far as I  
>>> understand).
>>>  This is why I implied changing the engine to change its exit
>>> criteria.
>>>
>>> So, unless there's some other way I'm unaware of, there is still no
>>> other way except to specify a very long duration for a project.
>>>
>>> steven
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 8:47 AM, vallste@libero.it >> > wrote:
>>>> Why not creating a "f 0 -1"?
>>>>
>>>> Maybe it has been already discussed... in this case sorry for  
>>>> this question...
>>>>
>>>>> ----Messaggio originale----
>>>>> Da: michael.gogins@gmail.com
>>>>> Data: 23/01/2010 12.55
>>>>> A: 
>>>>> Ogg: [Csnd] Re: Infinite Duration Proposal
>>>>>
>>>>> -1 duration in the score is indefinite.
>>>>>
>>>>> alwayson opcode in the orchestra header is indefinite.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Steven Yi   
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm thinking of a change to allow instruments of infinite  
>>>>>> duration.
>>>>>> The idea would be to have something like this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i1 0 x 0 1 2 3 4 5
>>>>>> i2 0 x 0 1 2 3 4 5
>>>>>>
>>>>>> where the x would denote that this instrument instance is meant  
>>>>>> to be
>>>>>> infinite in duration.  There would be a change to the engine  
>>>>>> then to
>>>>>> have a flag on the instrument instance and to keep running while
>>>>>> either there is no more score as well as no more instrument  
>>>>>> instances
>>>>>> with unending duration.  This seems like it would be useful for
>>>>>> projects that are going to be run more like an application  
>>>>>> (i.e. a
>>>>>> QuteCsound project) or any kind of long running installation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as I'm aware, the only way to specify long running  
>>>>>> projects up
>>>>>> until now has been to use a really long duration.  This has  
>>>>>> worked but
>>>>>> has always seemed strange to me to look at "i1 0 336000000 1 2  
>>>>>> 3 4 5"
>>>>>> or something like that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any thoughts?  Suggestions for better syntax than 'x'?  Or  
>>>>>> perhaps is
>>>>>> this altogether unnecessary?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>> steven
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>> csound"
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Michael Gogins
>>>>> Irreducible Productions
>>>>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>>>>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>> csound"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
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>>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>>
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>
>
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This seems simple and nice.
Maybe it could also print a mesage at the start, telling the max duration.

Would there be potential issues with instruments running at the reset
time, e.g. dropouts, crashes, or instruments terminating automatically
when the counter is reset ?

Oeyvind

2010/1/24 Andres Cabrera :
> Could it be done this way?
>
> If there is a score event:
> e -1
>
> The engine will run until the maximum possible duration and reset from
> 0 again printing a message, but without repeating the score?
>
> I would also like this to be possible.
>
> Cheers,
> Andres
>
> On 1/24/10, Chuckk Hubbard  wrote:
>> Hi, Steven.
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 6:35 PM, Steven Yi  wrote:
>>> 1. Start Engine
>>> 2. Send instrument definitions to Csound, parser reads input and adds
>>> to instrument list
>>> 3. Send a note to Csound to turn on instrument
>>> 4. Experiment with sounds
>>> 5. Send and updated instrument definition to Csound
>>> 6. Send a note to re-turn on instrument
>>> 7. Experiment with sounds
>>> 8. Stop Engine
>>
>> I have the impression this would be not only impossible but a
>> different question; to change instrument definitions for a running
>> instance? On the other hand, I would personally love it; I'm now
>> adding a loop function to Rationale, and it would be great to be able
>> to change the instruments for each iteration. I can just stop and
>> start the engine over and over, but it takes a second or two.
>>
>>>
>>> This kind of thing could be expressible if duration is optional. (I
>>> believe this also maps closely to SuperCollider style usage with
>>> SynthDefs).
>>>
>>> For myself, I am also currently working on blue and MIDI.  Part of the
>>> scenarios I am thinking is that in sequencing software, often times
>>> the engine is continually running.  When the score of a sequencer is
>>> not running, the user can still play MIDI input and have it route to
>>> instruments to play and experiment with. When the score is on, it is
>>> an additional part running while the main audio engine is stil
>>> ongoing.  I am drafting some ideas about this with blue where the
>>> Csound engine would be ongoing with blue sending score events to
>>> csound and having the ability to set the engine to just run makes
>>> sense to me for this scenario.
>>
>> I have a scrub function in Rationale, where, if the user enters SCRUB
>> mode, a Csound instance starts and waits for notes, all of which have
>> infinite duration of course. In SCRUB mode, the user can't actually
>> play the score, though, because it was just too confusing for me. I'd
>> like to add this kind of feature, where an instance starts every time
>> a change is made, and any added or dragged note sounds in real time.
>>
>> I might not be talking about the same thing as you, because I don't
>> see optional duration having much influence over either my looping or
>> note adding ideas.
>>
>> -Chuckk
>>
>> --
>> http://www.badmuthahubbard.com
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>
>
> --
>
>
> Andrés
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"


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