Something OT that just occurred to me.

Many guitarists I have observed (from both classical guitar and  
electric/rock/jazz guitar background) seem to tune their guitars using  
the harmonic series. They would tune their strings in the standard  
tuning starting with a 3  perfectly tuned 4/3  fourths, from 6th  
string to the 3rd string. Then some will go from  6th to the 1st, 2  
octaves 4:1, then from 1st to the second, a 3/4 fourth. Others would  
tune the 2nd by fretting a major 3rd in the 3rd string and then tune  
the 1st 4:3.

I have not looked into the positioning of frets, but l am guessing  
they would be logarithmically spaced to give 12 intervals of equal  
spacing from the open string to the 12th fret. So in this case:

(a) 2nd string will not be 1:1 unison with the 4th fret on the 3rd  
string (first tuning).

((4/3)^3)*(2^1/3))/3 = 0.99

(b) the 1st string in the second tuning will not be a 4:1 beatless  
octave.

((4/3)^3)*(2^(1/3))*(4/3) = 3.98the

However if the frets are not equal-tempered, and say, they are just- 
spaced giving perfect 3rds, 4ths and 5ths, we have

(a) ((4/3)^3)*(5/4)/3 = 0.98 (ouch!)

(b)  ((4/3)^3)*(5/4)*(4/3) = 3.95  (ouch too!)


In any case, neither looks like a good way of tuning the guitar,  
although the first tuning seems better.

Is my reasoning wrong? Any comments? It's something that always  
puzzled me and I had never had clear answers.

Regards

Victor




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When I had a guitar, I tuned it by harmonics and then it sounded wrong
and I adjusted it so a few common triads sounded right.

Of course I never became an expert player...

Regards,
Mike

On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 7:46 AM, Victor Lazzarini
 wrote:
> Something OT that just occurred to me.
>
> Many guitarists I have observed (from both classical guitar and
> electric/rock/jazz guitar background) seem to tune their guitars using the
> harmonic series. They would tune their strings in the standard tuning
> starting with a 3  perfectly tuned 4/3  fourths, from 6th string to the 3rd
> string. Then some will go from  6th to the 1st, 2 octaves 4:1, then from 1st
> to the second, a 3/4 fourth. Others would tune the 2nd by fretting a major
> 3rd in the 3rd string and then tune the 1st 4:3.
>
> I have not looked into the positioning of frets, but l am guessing they
> would be logarithmically spaced to give 12 intervals of equal spacing from
> the open string to the 12th fret. So in this case:
>
> (a) 2nd string will not be 1:1 unison with the 4th fret on the 3rd string
> (first tuning).
>
> ((4/3)^3)*(2^1/3))/3 = 0.99
>
> (b) the 1st string in the second tuning will not be a 4:1 beatless octave.
>
> ((4/3)^3)*(2^(1/3))*(4/3) = 3.98the
>
> However if the frets are not equal-tempered, and say, they are just-spaced
> giving perfect 3rds, 4ths and 5ths, we have
>
> (a) ((4/3)^3)*(5/4)/3 = 0.98 (ouch!)
>
> (b)  ((4/3)^3)*(5/4)*(4/3) = 3.95  (ouch too!)
>
>
> In any case, neither looks like a good way of tuning the guitar, although
> the first tuning seems better.
>
> Is my reasoning wrong? Any comments? It's something that always puzzled me
> and I had never had clear answers.
>
> Regards
>
> Victor
>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>



-- 
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


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hey

On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 7:46 AM, Victor Lazzarini
 wrote:
> Something OT that just occurred to me.

this happens to me all the time ...

> Many guitarists I have observed (from both classical guitar and
> electric/rock/jazz guitar background) seem to tune their guitars using the
> harmonic series.

> Any comments?

well, don't forget about expediency as an operative principle.

in my experience, there are only a few fringe players who try to tune
their guitars to just intonation- most of them are trying to
approximate equal temperament. just intonation requires refretting and
limits your instrument to a few keys if you go all the way to the full
monty ...

guitar tuning is a compromise because often times guitar players want
to hear the true fourths of the open strings- it just sounds better
when you crank it up ...

so if the fourths are true- they are not tempered. this is another way
to look at the problem you are describing [if i am understanding it
correctly].

and [of course] many guitar players have not trained their ears enough
to tell the difference [as well as most likely not caring enough].

electronic instruments are far superior in terms of flexible
intonation. for instance, if you have digital control over frequency,
you could conceivably switch from one just intonation tuning to
another in a nanosecond ...

Hi Mr. Victor,

You are right, by the way, this is only a way for tuning guitars 'cause
at the end only the musician ears are ultimate judge, especially for
instruments like guitars,
so dependent by many factors, at last acoustic/classical guitars (wood, air
pressure, humidity, etc.).
And capo and ponte are not parallel. Of course there are some different
sistem for "perfect" tuning,
as said Feiten on electric guitars, and many others. In middle age the lute
had "free-freets". This were made by a knot cord for achieve different
tuning (before equal temperament).

ciao,
fran.


Michael Gogins-2 wrote:
> 
> When I had a guitar, I tuned it by harmonics and then it sounded wrong
> and I adjusted it so a few common triads sounded right.
> 
> Of course I never became an expert player...
> 
> Regards,
> Mike
> 
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 7:46 AM, Victor Lazzarini
>  wrote:
>> Something OT that just occurred to me.
>>
>> Many guitarists I have observed (from both classical guitar and
>> electric/rock/jazz guitar background) seem to tune their guitars using
>> the
>> harmonic series. They would tune their strings in the standard tuning
>> starting with a 3  perfectly tuned 4/3  fourths, from 6th string to the
>> 3rd
>> string. Then some will go from  6th to the 1st, 2 octaves 4:1, then from
>> 1st
>> to the second, a 3/4 fourth. Others would tune the 2nd by fretting a
>> major
>> 3rd in the 3rd string and then tune the 1st 4:3.
>>
>> I have not looked into the positioning of frets, but l am guessing they
>> would be logarithmically spaced to give 12 intervals of equal spacing
>> from
>> the open string to the 12th fret. So in this case:
>>
>> (a) 2nd string will not be 1:1 unison with the 4th fret on the 3rd string
>> (first tuning).
>>
>> ((4/3)^3)*(2^1/3))/3 = 0.99
>>
>> (b) the 1st string in the second tuning will not be a 4:1 beatless
>> octave.
>>
>> ((4/3)^3)*(2^(1/3))*(4/3) = 3.98the
>>
>> However if the frets are not equal-tempered, and say, they are
>> just-spaced
>> giving perfect 3rds, 4ths and 5ths, we have
>>
>> (a) ((4/3)^3)*(5/4)/3 = 0.98 (ouch!)
>>
>> (b)  ((4/3)^3)*(5/4)*(4/3) = 3.95  (ouch too!)
>>
>>
>> In any case, neither looks like a good way of tuning the guitar, although
>> the first tuning seems better.
>>
>> Is my reasoning wrong? Any comments? It's something that always puzzled
>> me
>> and I had never had clear answers.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Victor
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Michael Gogins
> Irreducible Productions
> http://www.michael-gogins.com
> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
> 
> 
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
> 

-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/-OT--guitar-tuning-tp27272647p27274782.html
Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



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Can't let this thread pass without a guitar joke: What do a guitar and
a vacuum cleaner have in common? They both suck once you plug them
in...

2010/1/22 francibal :
>
> Hi Mr. Victor,
>
> You are right, by the way, this is only a way for tuning guitars 'cause
> at the end only the musician ears are ultimate judge, especially for
> instruments like guitars,
> so dependent by many factors, at last acoustic/classical guitars (wood, air


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I wonder if the tuning problems/issues/irregularities are a lot of the
reason why synthesized guitar sounds are rarely very convincing.....


On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Rory Walsh  wrote:
> Can't let this thread pass without a guitar joke: What do a guitar and
> a vacuum cleaner have in common? They both suck once you plug them
> in...
>
> 2010/1/22 francibal :
>>
>> Hi Mr. Victor,
>>
>> You are right, by the way, this is only a way for tuning guitars 'cause
>> at the end only the musician ears are ultimate judge, especially for
>> instruments like guitars,
>> so dependent by many factors, at last acoustic/classical guitars (wood, air
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>


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You could nearly go so far as saying that's most likely the problem
with all synthesised instrumental sounds, the level of detail needed
to model all these intricacies makes it such a laborious and
painstaking task.

2010/1/22 Aidan Collins :
> I wonder if the tuning problems/issues/irregularities are a lot of the
> reason why synthesized guitar sounds are rarely very convincing.....
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Rory Walsh  wrote:


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problem solved:

http://old.nabble.com/file/p27275257/SeranadeELAco.jpg SeranadeELAco.jpg 


RoryWalsh wrote:
> 
> Can't let this thread pass without a guitar joke: What do a guitar and
> a vacuum cleaner have in common? They both suck once you plug them
> in...
> 
> 2010/1/22 francibal :
>>
>> Hi Mr. Victor,
>>
>> You are right, by the way, this is only a way for tuning guitars 'cause
>> at the end only the musician ears are ultimate judge, especially for
>> instruments like guitars,
>> so dependent by many factors, at last acoustic/classical guitars (wood,
>> air
> 
> 
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
> 
> 

That looks like an electric Braham's guitar! Speaking of which I
attended a masterclass yesterday on that very instrument. For those of
you not in the know here's a photo of the Braham's guitar without it's
resonating soundbox.
http://erez-perelman.com/guitar/images/brahms/IMG_1190.jpg_s.jpg
The performer giving the masterclass was Redmond O Toole.




2010/1/22 francibal :
>
> problem solved:


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That looks interesting, must have also inspired Charlie Hunter's 8
string bass/guitar.

http://www.novaxguitars.com/images/CH8_swampash_horz.jpg



On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Rory Walsh  wrote:
> That looks like an electric Braham's guitar! Speaking of which I
> attended a masterclass yesterday on that very instrument. For those of
> you not in the know here's a photo of the Braham's guitar without it's
> resonating soundbox.
> http://erez-perelman.com/guitar/images/brahms/IMG_1190.jpg_s.jpg
> The performer giving the masterclass was Redmond O Toole.
>
>
>
>
> 2010/1/22 francibal :
>>
>> problem solved:
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>


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For what it's worth, I've been using the following method for years:

Tune both E strings to the double octave.

Tune A so that the 5th fret harmonic matches the high E

Tune B so that the 6th string 7th fret harmonic matches.

Tune the G string so that the A on the second fret matches the 12 fret
A harmonic

Tune the D string so that its 12 fret Harmonic matches the B string.

On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 4:46 AM, Victor Lazzarini
 wrote:
> Something OT that just occurred to me.
>
> Many guitarists I have observed (from both classical guitar and
> electric/rock/jazz guitar background) seem to tune their guitars using the
> harmonic series. They would tune their strings in the standard tuning
> starting with a 3  perfectly tuned 4/3  fourths, from 6th string to the 3rd
> string. Then some will go from  6th to the 1st, 2 octaves 4:1, then from 1st
> to the second, a 3/4 fourth. Others would tune the 2nd by fretting a major
> 3rd in the 3rd string and then tune the 1st 4:3.
>
> I have not looked into the positioning of frets, but l am guessing they
> would be logarithmically spaced to give 12 intervals of equal spacing from
> the open string to the 12th fret. So in this case:
>
> (a) 2nd string will not be 1:1 unison with the 4th fret on the 3rd string
> (first tuning).
>
> ((4/3)^3)*(2^1/3))/3 = 0.99
>
> (b) the 1st string in the second tuning will not be a 4:1 beatless octave.
>
> ((4/3)^3)*(2^(1/3))*(4/3) = 3.98the
>
> However if the frets are not equal-tempered, and say, they are just-spaced
> giving perfect 3rds, 4ths and 5ths, we have
>
> (a) ((4/3)^3)*(5/4)/3 = 0.98 (ouch!)
>
> (b)  ((4/3)^3)*(5/4)*(4/3) = 3.95  (ouch too!)
>
>
> In any case, neither looks like a good way of tuning the guitar, although
> the first tuning seems better.
>
> Is my reasoning wrong? Any comments? It's something that always puzzled me
> and I had never had clear answers.
>
> Regards
>
> Victor
>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>


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On 22/01/2010 18:32, Tobiah wrote:
> For what it's worth, I've been using the following method for years:
>
> Tune both E strings to the double octave.
>
> Tune A so that the 5th fret harmonic matches the high E
>
> Tune B so that the 6th string 7th fret harmonic matches.
>
> Tune the G string so that the A on the second fret matches the 12 fret
> A harmonic
>
> Tune the D string so that its 12 fret Harmonic matches the B string.
>


This is all relative tuning  - does A=440 come into it anywhere?

If the frets are spaced in ET, simple logic suggest the B string should 
be tuned as a duly tempered maj third from the G. Of course, if you are 
trying to achive some form of just intonation, anything is possible (but 
surely very tough with ET fret positions), but an external reference is 
still needed if it is to be in tune with other instruments.

Richard Dobson



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If everything is ET, then I'd just tune everything by fretting 4ths  
and 3rd, and getting perfect unisons. I won't get perfectly-tuned  
fourths but
theoretically I can modulate anywhere. Otherwise I'd be worried to  
play in keys such as Bb or Eb (featured in many good Standards).

Victor

On 22 Jan 2010, at 19:37, Richard Dobson wrote:

> On 22/01/2010 18:32, Tobiah wrote:
>> For what it's worth, I've been using the following method for years:
>>
>> Tune both E strings to the double octave.
>>
>> Tune A so that the 5th fret harmonic matches the high E
>>
>> Tune B so that the 6th string 7th fret harmonic matches.
>>
>> Tune the G string so that the A on the second fret matches the 12  
>> fret
>> A harmonic
>>
>> Tune the D string so that its 12 fret Harmonic matches the B string.
>>
>
>
> This is all relative tuning  - does A=440 come into it anywhere?
>
> If the frets are spaced in ET, simple logic suggest the B string  
> should be tuned as a duly tempered maj third from the G. Of course,  
> if you are trying to achive some form of just intonation, anything  
> is possible (but surely very tough with ET fret positions), but an  
> external reference is still needed if it is to be in tune with other  
> instruments.
>
> Richard Dobson
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"



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I knew some guitarists in college who would tune it all by ear, from
low to high. I stopped one and illustrated specifically to him how the
major third could never be close to right that way, but he wasn't so
concerned. He just made minor adjustments when he heard something
amiss, never had much of a system. On that note, I never heard a
single guitar professor, nor anyone in the entire music department at
my university, make a comment on it.

I do what Mark Jamerson said, on my banjo, as I have a freely movable
bridge. Theoretically, that helps against pulling strings out of tune
while fretting them. I also always do as you say, I tune everything
using frets, except for octaves. Standard 5-string banjo tuning uses
two octaves, a 4th apart, so they are a way to make sure I didn't mess
up anything in between. I never tune to harmonic 4ths, although I know
my ear probably wouldn't detect much difference.
Also, doing as Mark said, I find that my bridge ends up a little
diagonal, since the strings have different gauges; but unlike guitar,
this is a problem because the thickest string on a 5-string banjo is
between 2 thinner ones. Maybe that's why so few people take the
instrument seriously.

-Chuckk


On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 2:46 PM, Victor Lazzarini
 wrote:
> Something OT that just occurred to me.
>
> Many guitarists I have observed (from both classical guitar and
> electric/rock/jazz guitar background) seem to tune their guitars using the
> harmonic series. They would tune their strings in the standard tuning
> starting with a 3  perfectly tuned 4/3  fourths, from 6th string to the 3rd
> string. Then some will go from  6th to the 1st, 2 octaves 4:1, then from 1st
> to the second, a 3/4 fourth. Others would tune the 2nd by fretting a major
> 3rd in the 3rd string and then tune the 1st 4:3.
>
> I have not looked into the positioning of frets, but l am guessing they
> would be logarithmically spaced to give 12 intervals of equal spacing from
> the open string to the 12th fret. So in this case:
>
> (a) 2nd string will not be 1:1 unison with the 4th fret on the 3rd string
> (first tuning).
>
> ((4/3)^3)*(2^1/3))/3 = 0.99
>
> (b) the 1st string in the second tuning will not be a 4:1 beatless octave.
>
> ((4/3)^3)*(2^(1/3))*(4/3) = 3.98the
>
> However if the frets are not equal-tempered, and say, they are just-spaced
> giving perfect 3rds, 4ths and 5ths, we have
>
> (a) ((4/3)^3)*(5/4)/3 = 0.98 (ouch!)
>
> (b)  ((4/3)^3)*(5/4)*(4/3) = 3.95  (ouch too!)
>
>
> In any case, neither looks like a good way of tuning the guitar, although
> the first tuning seems better.
>
> Is my reasoning wrong? Any comments? It's something that always puzzled me
> and I had never had clear answers.
>
> Regards
>
> Victor
>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>



-- 
http://www.badmuthahubbard.com


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What's this? TWO banjo players on the list!!

FWIW I do the angled bridge trick too - set the octave harmonics on  
first and fourth strings to be as in tune as possible. That's on  
tenor banjo, of course - can well see the problem on a five-string…

Probably the only way to solve the basic problem is to do away with  
frets altogether - after all, this was the reason viols gave way to  
the violin family.

Don't know whether it would necessarily create better intonation  
though ;-)

Joe

www.joeofarrell.com

www.keltickats.com (for any masochists who want to hear what I do on  
banjo!)




On 23 Jan 2010, at 22:43, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:

> I knew some guitarists in college who would tune it all by ear, from
> low to high. I stopped one and illustrated specifically to him how the
> major third could never be close to right that way, but he wasn't so
> concerned. He just made minor adjustments when he heard something
> amiss, never had much of a system. On that note, I never heard a
> single guitar professor, nor anyone in the entire music department at
> my university, make a comment on it.
>
> I do what Mark Jamerson said, on my banjo, as I have a freely movable
> bridge. Theoretically, that helps against pulling strings out of tune
> while fretting them. I also always do as you say, I tune everything
> using frets, except for octaves. Standard 5-string banjo tuning uses
> two octaves, a 4th apart, so they are a way to make sure I didn't mess
> up anything in between. I never tune to harmonic 4ths, although I know
> my ear probably wouldn't detect much difference.
> Also, doing as Mark said, I find that my bridge ends up a little
> diagonal, since the strings have different gauges; but unlike guitar,
> this is a problem because the thickest string on a 5-string banjo is
> between 2 thinner ones. Maybe that's why so few people take the
> instrument seriously.
>
> -Chuckk
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 2:46 PM, Victor Lazzarini
>  wrote:
>> Something OT that just occurred to me.
>>
>> Many guitarists I have observed (from both classical guitar and
>> electric/rock/jazz guitar background) seem to tune their guitars  
>> using the
>> harmonic series. They would tune their strings in the standard tuning
>> starting with a 3  perfectly tuned 4/3  fourths, from 6th string  
>> to the 3rd
>> string. Then some will go from  6th to the 1st, 2 octaves 4:1,  
>> then from 1st
>> to the second, a 3/4 fourth. Others would tune the 2nd by fretting  
>> a major
>> 3rd in the 3rd string and then tune the 1st 4:3.
>>
>> I have not looked into the positioning of frets, but l am guessing  
>> they
>> would be logarithmically spaced to give 12 intervals of equal  
>> spacing from
>> the open string to the 12th fret. So in this case:
>>
>> (a) 2nd string will not be 1:1 unison with the 4th fret on the 3rd  
>> string
>> (first tuning).
>>
>> ((4/3)^3)*(2^1/3))/3 = 0.99
>>
>> (b) the 1st string in the second tuning will not be a 4:1 beatless  
>> octave.
>>
>> ((4/3)^3)*(2^(1/3))*(4/3) = 3.98the
>>
>> However if the frets are not equal-tempered, and say, they are  
>> just-spaced
>> giving perfect 3rds, 4ths and 5ths, we have
>>
>> (a) ((4/3)^3)*(5/4)/3 = 0.98 (ouch!)
>>
>> (b)  ((4/3)^3)*(5/4)*(4/3) = 3.95  (ouch too!)
>>
>>
>> In any case, neither looks like a good way of tuning the guitar,  
>> although
>> the first tuning seems better.
>>
>> Is my reasoning wrong? Any comments? It's something that always  
>> puzzled me
>> and I had never had clear answers.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Victor
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>> "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> http://www.badmuthahubbard.com
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"



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ahh, what a nostalgia ...

I was a student of M. Stefano Grondona, a friend of M. Galbraith, that we
meet many, too many,
years ago. Beautiful days with these great musicians, and them guitars
(David Rubio guitars)!!

Ok, sorry for this, but nostalgia ...

ciao,
fran.


Caecos wrote:
> 
> 
> This guitar is used by Paul Galbraith for many recordings.
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>> From: rorywalsh@ear.ie
>> Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 16:07:13 +0000
>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>> Subject: [Csnd] Re: Re: Re: [OT] guitar tuning
>> 
>> That looks like an electric Braham's guitar! Speaking of which I
>> attended a masterclass yesterday on that very instrument. For those of
>> you not in the know here's a photo of the Braham's guitar without it's
>> resonating soundbox.
>> http://erez-perelman.com/guitar/images/brahms/IMG_1190.jpg_s.jpg
>> The performer giving the masterclass was Redmond O Toole.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 2010/1/22 francibal :
>> >
>> > problem solved:
>> 
>> 
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
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