I'd like to offer my own feelings about python - just another view:

I don't use python, have never programmed with it. But I'm intrigued by the csound integration with python, because for me -- being completely committed to using csound -- python looks like an attractive language extension to csound.

However, over several years I have seen many complaints in this forum about versioning problems with the csound/python connection. I don't use python (yet) and I don't understand these problems. Frankly, I don't want to divert time spent composing to time spent understanding installation issues.

However the main reason I have not started using python is because of these complaints. The last thing I need is to invest time developing a csound/python project, only to discover, the next time I install a csound update, that my project no longer works because of some mysterious python version problem. The complaints I've seen all tell me that any new version of Csound -- and any new version of CsoundQT, is likely to present some sort of python version difficulty. It's easier for me to avoid those difficulties and get on with my music by avoiding python.

As for versions: since I would be a python beginner, I doubt whether I would need the most recent version of python. For that matter, I'm usually content with an older version of Csound also.

I would dearly love to know that csound's incredible backwards compatibility extends to parts of project that use csound's extension to python. Until that's clear, my risk-averse attitude is to simply find some other way to get pieces composed rather than rely on python. I would certainly love to feel that using python with csound is safe, but all of these complaints I read tell me otherwise.

best,
Lou

On Jul 7, 2012, at 8:06 PM, Victor Lazzarini wrote:

I think it is a good idea. The original 10.5 installer I built had a mixed content , opcodes linked to apple python and
module to macpython. What you propose is much better.

Victor
On 8 Jul 2012, at 00:47, Steven Yi wrote:

Hi All,

Still in Rome, will be back Tuesday and will start catching up on things.

The 10.7 installer is using the same code as the one for 10.5/10.6.
It's all in the postinstall script in
csound/installer/macosx/PkgResources/CsoundLib64.

As far as I understand, the issue is not one of installation but for
compile time. When I compile (or anyone really), I am building it
linking to Apple's python. Obviously, I can't build it and link to
multiple versions of python, so it's lowest common denominator for
release at the moment.  Some solutions I see are to compile it
multiple times or compile at install time.

Perhaps though we should just install it/distribute it separately.  We
could just keep the current installer as-is as it will work by default
for all OSX users who do not install python from python.org.  A new
setup.py and egg could be created that would build the _csnd.so from
source, and link the Csound installed into
/Library/Frameworks/CsoundLib64.framework. (So installing the Csound
installer would be a requirement).  The setup.py could come with the
swig-generated source code for csnd.py and C code. With an egg, users
should be able to then run easy_install to install it from a URL or
download and install.  Sound good?

steven


On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Anthony Palomba <apalomba@austin.rr.com> wrote:

I agree! If all I wanted to do is manipulate score events and write .csd
files from python then I guess I would be good with Apple python. But to be
honest
with you, that "excellent integration" is pretty simple stuff, no offense.

I certainly want to leverage all the amazing work that colleges in the
python community have created. Things like music21 or scipy. I am not
interested in reinventing those massive wheels. So why would I want to
work in such a limited environment such as Apple's python?

Windows users may have complained about the extra installer. I certainly
would not complain if there were such an installer for the mac. It would
make OSX python csound something actually useful.



Anthony






On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 3:48 PM, DavidW <vip@avatar.com.au> wrote:

I do understand your wish not to burden users etc.
The people I talk to, to whom I'm referring, have an enormous amount of
time invested in python. 3rd party inclusions etc, and the idea that they
would change their whole orientation in order to accommodate a sound
synthesiser, simply doesn't work for them.

Victor, I know how excellent is the integration w. some (whatever) version
of python is your target - I've used it extensively in the past.
However, by targeting a particular python, version of OSX etc. the csound
user base is restricted.

I'm not having a go at you - Don't shoot me - I'm just the messenger! :-)

David

On 08/07/2012, at 6:26 AM, Victor Lazzarini wrote:

I am not sure why you are saying this. Up until 5.15, I was supplying
pre-built modules for MacPython because Apple's python version was very out
of date. But since we overhauled our installer creation script, we opted to
move to Apple Python so users would not need to be burdened with extra
installers (did you not hear the complaints regarding these requirements on
Windows).

So I am not sure why you are saying this. Csound has actually an excellent
integration with Python, so you should be actually encouraging solutions as
to how better package it, rather
than 'not recommending it'.

Victor


On 7 Jul 2012, at 21:06, DavidW wrote:


On 08/07/2012, at 2:27 AM, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
...

So it is not an easy one to do. Maybe we can provide a separate package
for users to install containing a Python module for the MacPython
installation.
I'll think about it.

Victor


Talk about deja vu!

Given that anyone seriously using python on the mac uses the python.org.
version for the reasons Anthony oullined later (up-to-dateness etc etc) I
think it is a pain in the proverbial for csound to be locked into Apple's
idea of what python is.

Enough to make one use another sound synthesiser when needing to deal with
the rest of the world, really.

Seriously, it is the one reason I do not recommend csound except with
heavy qualifications.

David

_____________________________________________
Dr David Worrall
Experimental Composer, Polymedia
Adjunct Research Fellow, Australian National University
David.Worrall@anu.edu.au
Board Member, International Community for Auditory Display
Regional Editor, Organised Sound (CUP)
IT Projects, Music Council of Australia
worrall.avatar.com.au sonification.com.au

T : +61 (0)2 61.61.95.22 M: +61 (0)4.02.28.36.90




Dr Victor Lazzarini
Senior Lecturer
Dept. of Music
NUI Maynooth Ireland
tel.: +353 1 708 3545
Victor dot Lazzarini AT nuim dot ie

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Dr Victor Lazzarini
Senior Lecturer
Dept. of Music
NUI Maynooth Ireland
tel.: +353 1 708 3545
Victor dot Lazzarini AT nuim dot ie





Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
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Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
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Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"