Re: [Csnd] point to point audio?

Date	2020-05-07 20:17
From	Mikoláš Štrajt
Subject	Re: [Csnd] point to point audio?
	Hi, for playing together over the internet there is a app called Ninjam - https://www.cockos.com/ninjam/ It works around latency in way you actually play one measure ahead (check out description on their page). I actually wanted to try it with someone, but not managed to do it yet. -- Severák ---------- Původní e-mail ---------- Od: Forrest Curo <treegestalt@GMAIL.COM> Komu: CSOUND@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Datum: 7. 5. 2020 18:42:38 Předmět: [Csnd] point to point audio? My wife's string quartet is kaput due to current virus constraints. They tried a temporarily-free service called jam-kazam, that hassled us all about the inadequacies of our home internet connections... but I gather it routes everyone's audio to Texas and back. The result was: everyone was playing slower because everyone else sounded like they were playing slower. No good. I imagine this could work faster if audio went over the internet 'directly' within one city; but I don't know how this could be set up. Suggestions? Forrest Curo San Diego Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2020-05-07 22:47
From	Justin Smith
Subject	Re: [Csnd] point to point audio?
	I've used ninjam - the latency correction is clever, and since it is hosted as a plugin in reaper you can easily integrate it with anything else (as reaper in turn can use jack, vsts, etc.). On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 12:17 PM Mikoláš Štrajt wrote: > > Hi, > for playing together over the internet there is a app called Ninjam - https://www.cockos.com/ninjam/ > > It works around latency in way you actually play one measure ahead (check out description on their page). > > I actually wanted to try it with someone, but not managed to do it yet. > > -- > Severák > > ---------- Původní e-mail ---------- > Od: Forrest Curo > Komu: CSOUND@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE > Datum: 7. 5. 2020 18:42:38 > Předmět: [Csnd] point to point audio? > > My wife's string quartet is kaput due to current virus constraints. They tried a temporarily-free service called jam-kazam, that hassled us all about the inadequacies of our home internet connections... but I gather it routes everyone's audio to Texas and back. > > The result was: everyone was playing slower because everyone else sounded like they were playing slower. No good. > > I imagine this could work faster if audio went over the internet 'directly' within one city; but I don't know how this could be set up. Suggestions? > > Forrest Curo > San Diego > Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here > > Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2020-05-08 09:31
From	Oeyvind Brandtsegg
Subject	Re: [Csnd] point to point audio?
	Hi all We have quite a lot of activity in this field in Trondheim. Networked performances collaborating with nodes on all continents, and also a higher bandwidth network for connections between venues in the city. We also do regular networked teaching as we have a masters programme in collaboration with the University of Oslo where helf the class is in each city, and all team work and the whole pedagogy is designed to explore and challenge these issues. The issue about network traffic routing (via Texas for a connection between two locations in San Diego) is a real practical problem. We see this as soon as we venture outside the university's internal network. All home connections go via some commercial service provider, and they rout the signals in the way that gives them the easiest oversight and control. To monitor all traffic, they might route all signals to one location before retransmitting. This adds significant overhead to the network latency of course. One limiting facor that is hard to overcome is the speed of light. Signals are limited by light speed, if all other conditions are optimal it still takes some time to reach the other side of the globe and back. The signal route will thus also affect latency even for shorter geographical distances. We have also seen the signals been routed via Oslo when we have done connections from Trondheim to Trondheim (when involving home connections from commercial providers). Funnily, the provider in question did change their practice after the Corona outbreak, since the total traffic amount was bogging down their network so they needed to optimize traffic flow. So, there's a whole field of interesting study here, with many contributing factors. Some of the web based technologies will use less than optimal audio i/o interfaces, which also will add latency. For example on windows, we have seen web based tools only communicating over the old MME type drivers, so there's an extra amount of latency added there before the signal even leaves home. One of the best solution we have used with respect to latency and audio quality is LOLA: https://conts.it/art/lola-project/old-lola-project-web-site/lola-low-latency-audio-visual-streaming-system It can be finicky, but works solidly once set up properly. Alas, as far as I know it only allows connection between two points (although there was some talk about making three-way connections possible). Another high end solution is DANTE https://www.audinate.com/ It works great but will only work on a local network, or a network structure that is set up to act like a LAN. For the Csound conference in Cagli I did a networked performance with collague Bernt Isak Wærstad, where we had a physical model of a string extending between Cagli and Oslo. We used Source Connect Now to facilitate this: https://now.source-elements.com/#!/ It is very robust and provides high quality (even though compresed) audio, and allows recording of uncompressed audio for later sync in post production. Since it is based on WebRTC is adds whatever audio driver latency the browser is limited by. We also experimented with transferring audio directly via Csound using socksend and related opcodes, but we never got around to making it stable enough for long range transmission. It should be possible, but I think we would need to work on buffering and sync to allow for random delays due to (commerecial) network routing. We were not tempted to delve into that by ourselves :-) I haven't yet tried the in-DAW plugins yet (from several vendors popping up). They might actually be able to bypasss some of the audio driver latency problems, since the audio is "already in the mixer" when you stat sending it, so there could be less overhead due to audio i/o. Also, take a look at our colleague Stefano Fasciani's blog here: https://stefanofasciani.com/?p=1550 It has a fairly complete overview of technologies. all best Oeyvind tor. 7. mai 2020 kl. 23:48 skrev Justin Smith <noisesmith@gmail.com>: I've used ninjam - the latency correction is clever, and since it is hosted as a plugin in reaper you can easily integrate it with anything else (as reaper in turn can use jack, vsts, etc.). On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 12:17 PM Mikoláš Štrajt <strajt9@seznam.cz> wrote: > > Hi, > for playing together over the internet there is a app called Ninjam - https://www.cockos.com/ninjam/ > > It works around latency in way you actually play one measure ahead (check out description on their page). > > I actually wanted to try it with someone, but not managed to do it yet. > > -- > Severák > > ---------- Původní e-mail ---------- > Od: Forrest Curo <treegestalt@GMAIL.COM> > Komu: CSOUND@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE > Datum: 7. 5. 2020 18:42:38 > Předmět: [Csnd] point to point audio? > > My wife's string quartet is kaput due to current virus constraints. They tried a temporarily-free service called jam-kazam, that hassled us all about the inadequacies of our home internet connections... but I gather it routes everyone's audio to Texas and back. > > The result was: everyone was playing slower because everyone else sounded like they were playing slower. No good. > > I imagine this could work faster if audio went over the internet 'directly' within one city; but I don't know how this could be set up. Suggestions? > > Forrest Curo > San Diego > Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here > > Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2020-05-08 09:51
From	Tarmo Johannes
Subject	Re: [Csnd] point to point audio?
	Hi, I have investigated quite much for playing together over network and suggest two solutions: Jamulus - https://sourceforge.net/projects/llcon/ a cross-platform low latency band software. Works well, but requires good internet connection (and no wifi or other wireless connections!). Also developed a lot these days. You can use one of the public servers or easily your own server somewhere. There is now a Jamulus OS that runs from USB stick - that might be super comfortable to get things going (have not tried). NINJAM https://www.cockos.com/ninjam/ - can be used easily from Reaper with ReaNINJAM plugin. Works very well and great quality BUT makes sense only for music with repeating harmonic structures - it syncs the players on the boundaries of a predefined section (say 16 beats in tempo 100) - so you hear what players played in previous period and your sound will be played for others in the next coming period. So it works only for jazz/rock/pop/perhaps some repetitive music. There is still also possibilty to set the track as VOICE CHAT - then the sound is transfered as fast as possible, but slow enough that it will be not in sync. CleanFeed https://cleanfeed.net/ is great - you can setit to "music" mode of audio transfer and it sounds way better than zoom/skype and others, latency is about 0,5..1 second, so not for playing together. For the string quartet I really recommend to try out Jamulus - if they have good microphones and sound interfaces + wired internet, it can give really good results. A good guide: https://www.facebook.com/notes/jamulus-online-musicianssingers-jamming/idiots-guide-to-jamulus-app/510044532903831/ We once used it for a collaborative piece "Brain Game" with Steven, Victor, Matti, Oeyvind and others for a concert of mine. Worked well! tarmo Kontakt Justin Smith (<noisesmith@gmail.com>) kirjutas kuupäeval R, 8. mai 2020 kell 00:48: I've used ninjam - the latency correction is clever, and since it is hosted as a plugin in reaper you can easily integrate it with anything else (as reaper in turn can use jack, vsts, etc.). On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 12:17 PM Mikoláš Štrajt <strajt9@seznam.cz> wrote: > > Hi, > for playing together over the internet there is a app called Ninjam - https://www.cockos.com/ninjam/ > > It works around latency in way you actually play one measure ahead (check out description on their page). > > I actually wanted to try it with someone, but not managed to do it yet. > > -- > Severák > > ---------- Původní e-mail ---------- > Od: Forrest Curo <treegestalt@GMAIL.COM> > Komu: CSOUND@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE > Datum: 7. 5. 2020 18:42:38 > Předmět: [Csnd] point to point audio? > > My wife's string quartet is kaput due to current virus constraints. They tried a temporarily-free service called jam-kazam, that hassled us all about the inadequacies of our home internet connections... but I gather it routes everyone's audio to Texas and back. > > The result was: everyone was playing slower because everyone else sounded like they were playing slower. No good. > > I imagine this could work faster if audio went over the internet 'directly' within one city; but I don't know how this could be set up. Suggestions? > > Forrest Curo > San Diego > Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here > > Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here