I'm just going to put it out there, and as the movie goes, if you
don't like you can send it back. How is it that the word 'velocity',
which I learned in school to be speed in a given direction, is the
word used to describe the amplitude of MIDI notes?

veloc = speed your finger hits the keyboard... ?

On 10/18/12, Rory Walsh  wrote:
> I'm just going to put it out there, and as the movie goes, if you
> don't like you can send it back. How is it that the word 'velocity',
> which I learned in school to be speed in a given direction, is the
> word used to describe the amplitude of MIDI notes?
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>             https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>
>

Because it is derived from the velocity with which the finger strikes
the key, which in a piano is what controls how hard the hammer hits
the string.

Regards,
Mike

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Rory Walsh  wrote:
>
> I'm just going to put it out there, and as the movie goes, if you
> don't like you can send it back. How is it that the word 'velocity',
> which I learned in school to be speed in a given direction, is the
> word used to describe the amplitude of MIDI notes?
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>             https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>



--
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com

On 10/18/12 16:19 , Rory Walsh wrote:
> I'm just going to put it out there, and as the movie goes, if you
> don't like you can send it back. How is it that the word 'velocity',
> which I learned in school to be speed in a given direction, is the
> word used to describe the amplitude of MIDI notes?

because with an acoustic piano, the velocity/speed with which the key is 
depressed determines it's volume. test it to see!

since the vast majority of MIDI controllers are keyboards, this relic 
from acoustic music performance stuck.


-- 
\js [http://or8.net/~johns/] : i am alive

Thanks guys. Top marks! Still kind of a misnomer though isn't it?
Still, at least I can sleep easy now. And although I'm not a keyboard
player, I have noticed that hitting the key quickly increased the
amplitude ;)

On 18 October 2012 21:22, Michael Gogins  wrote:
> Because it is derived from the velocity with which the finger strikes
> the key, which in a piano is what controls how hard the hammer hits
> the string.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Rory Walsh  wrote:
>>
>> I'm just going to put it out there, and as the movie goes, if you
>> don't like you can send it back. How is it that the word 'velocity',
>> which I learned in school to be speed in a given direction, is the
>> word used to describe the amplitude of MIDI notes?
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>             https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Michael Gogins
> Irreducible Productions
> http://www.michael-gogins.com
> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>             https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>

For bowed instrument controllers, velocity should clearly be mapped to
timbre. And we would need a pressure parameter mapped to amplitude and
also timbre, and a position parameter mapped to timbre, and a rosin,
tension, and bridge material parameters at instrument initialization
mapped to timbre.


On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Rory Walsh  wrote:
> Thanks guys. Top marks! Still kind of a misnomer though isn't it?
> Still, at least I can sleep easy now. And although I'm not a keyboard
> player, I have noticed that hitting the key quickly increased the
> amplitude ;)
>
> On 18 October 2012 21:22, Michael Gogins  wrote:
>> Because it is derived from the velocity with which the finger strikes
>> the key, which in a piano is what controls how hard the hammer hits
>> the string.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Rory Walsh  wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm just going to put it out there, and as the movie goes, if you
>>> don't like you can send it back. How is it that the word 'velocity',
>>> which I learned in school to be speed in a given direction, is the
>>> word used to describe the amplitude of MIDI notes?
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>>             https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Gogins
>> Irreducible Productions
>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>             https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>             https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>

I have always thought of it as how hard you hit the key as being the 
peak amplitude of the attack in the amplitude envelope. The velocity is 
the speed at which it reaches the peak of the attack portion of the 
envelope.


On 10/18/12 4:24 PM, Rory Walsh wrote:
> Thanks guys. Top marks! Still kind of a misnomer though isn't it?
> Still, at least I can sleep easy now. And although I'm not a keyboard
> player, I have noticed that hitting the key quickly increased the
> amplitude ;)
>
> On 18 October 2012 21:22, Michael Gogins  wrote:
>> Because it is derived from the velocity with which the finger strikes
>> the key, which in a piano is what controls how hard the hammer hits
>> the string.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Rory Walsh  wrote:
>>> I'm just going to put it out there, and as the movie goes, if you
>>> don't like you can send it back. How is it that the word 'velocity',
>>> which I learned in school to be speed in a given direction, is the
>>> word used to describe the amplitude of MIDI notes?
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>>              https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Gogins
>> Irreducible Productions
>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>              https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>              https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

Not forgetting there is also a release velocity too!

Richard Dobson


On 18/10/2012 21:24, Rory Walsh wrote:
> Thanks guys. Top marks! Still kind of a misnomer though isn't it?
> Still, at least I can sleep easy now. And although I'm not a keyboard
> player, I have noticed that hitting the key quickly increased the
> amplitude ;)
>

Attack envelope is not controllable separate from amplitude with a
piano. And obviously piano is the canonical musical instrument upon
which all abstractions should be based.

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Michael Rhoades
 wrote:
> I have always thought of it as how hard you hit the key as being the peak
> amplitude of the attack in the amplitude envelope. The velocity is the speed
> at which it reaches the peak of the attack portion of the envelope.
>
>
>
> On 10/18/12 4:24 PM, Rory Walsh wrote:
>>
>> Thanks guys. Top marks! Still kind of a misnomer though isn't it?
>> Still, at least I can sleep easy now. And although I'm not a keyboard
>> player, I have noticed that hitting the key quickly increased the
>> amplitude ;)
>>
>> On 18 October 2012 21:22, Michael Gogins  wrote:
>>>
>>> Because it is derived from the velocity with which the finger strikes
>>> the key, which in a piano is what controls how hard the hammer hits
>>> the string.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Rory Walsh  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm just going to put it out there, and as the movie goes, if you
>>>> don't like you can send it back. How is it that the word 'velocity',
>>>> which I learned in school to be speed in a given direction, is the
>>>> word used to describe the amplitude of MIDI notes?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>>>              https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>>>> csound"
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Gogins
>>> Irreducible Productions
>>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>>              https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>>> csound"
>>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>              https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>

Like pretty much all MIDI parameters, it is sound-agnostic. It is 
entirely at the whim of the synth operator what use (if any) they make 
of  velocity and other values. MIDI is a mechanical protocol, defining 
the operation of numbered switches and quasi-continuous controllers. 
Even such things as pitchbend  are not defined by MIDI other than  as 
just another controller position - you could in principle set it to 
control stereo pan if you want (though in some synths you may have to 
work hard to stop it changing pitch). There is nothing to stop you 
(other than what the synth designer allows you) mapping a high velocity 
to a slow attack, and a low velocity to a fast attack. And so on!

Richard Dobson

On 18/10/2012 21:30, Michael Rhoades wrote:
> I have always thought of it as how hard you hit the key as being the
> peak amplitude of the attack in the amplitude envelope. The velocity is
> the speed at which it reaches the peak of the attack portion of the
> envelope.
>
>
> On 10/18/12 4:24 PM, Rory Walsh wrote:
>> Thanks guys. Top marks! Still kind of a misnomer though isn't it?
>> Still, at least I can sleep easy now. And although I'm not a keyboard
>> player, I have noticed that hitting the key quickly increased the
>> amplitude ;)
>>

Are you sure? It would seem that the subtle nuance in the player's 
ability would stipulate this. The speed at which the hammer is flung at 
the string.

Not sure. Interesting question Rory.

As music programmers we do have that sort of control over the amplitude 
envelope and I think with a midi keyboard that is touch sensitive it can 
sense velocity. Of course that portion of the event, when played on a 
keyboard, is very fast.



On 10/18/12 4:36 PM, Justin Smith wrote:
> Attack envelope is not controllable separate from amplitude with a
> piano. And obviously piano is the canonical musical instrument upon
> which all abstractions should be based.
>
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Michael Rhoades
>  wrote:
>> I have always thought of it as how hard you hit the key as being the peak
>> amplitude of the attack in the amplitude envelope. The velocity is the speed
>> at which it reaches the peak of the attack portion of the envelope.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/18/12 4:24 PM, Rory Walsh wrote:
>>> Thanks guys. Top marks! Still kind of a misnomer though isn't it?
>>> Still, at least I can sleep easy now. And although I'm not a keyboard
>>> player, I have noticed that hitting the key quickly increased the
>>> amplitude ;)
>>>
>>> On 18 October 2012 21:22, Michael Gogins  wrote:
>>>> Because it is derived from the velocity with which the finger strikes
>>>> the key, which in a piano is what controls how hard the hammer hits
>>>> the string.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Rory Walsh  wrote:
>>>>> I'm just going to put it out there, and as the movie goes, if you
>>>>> don't like you can send it back. How is it that the word 'velocity',
>>>>> which I learned in school to be speed in a given direction, is the
>>>>> word used to describe the amplitude of MIDI notes?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>>>>               https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>>>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>>>>> csound"
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Michael Gogins
>>>> Irreducible Productions
>>>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>>>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>>>               https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>>>> csound"
>>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>>               https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>>> csound"
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>             https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>              https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

Physical piano keyboards are agnostic to pressure and respond to speed
of movement. Electronic are usually agnostic to speed of movement and
respond to pressure (though some do make the effort to emulate the
piano key mechanism, and some subset of those may in fact measure
speed rather than finger pressure, or indirectly measure speed by
measuring hammer pressure which is determined by finger speed).

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Michael Rhoades
 wrote:
> Are you sure? It would seem that the subtle nuance in the player's ability
> would stipulate this. The speed at which the hammer is flung at the string.
>
> Not sure. Interesting question Rory.
>
> As music programmers we do have that sort of control over the amplitude
> envelope and I think with a midi keyboard that is touch sensitive it can
> sense velocity. Of course that portion of the event, when played on a
> keyboard, is very fast.
>
>
>
>
> On 10/18/12 4:36 PM, Justin Smith wrote:
>>
>> Attack envelope is not controllable separate from amplitude with a
>> piano. And obviously piano is the canonical musical instrument upon
>> which all abstractions should be based.
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Michael Rhoades
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> I have always thought of it as how hard you hit the key as being the peak
>>> amplitude of the attack in the amplitude envelope. The velocity is the
>>> speed
>>> at which it reaches the peak of the attack portion of the envelope.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/18/12 4:24 PM, Rory Walsh wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks guys. Top marks! Still kind of a misnomer though isn't it?
>>>> Still, at least I can sleep easy now. And although I'm not a keyboard
>>>> player, I have noticed that hitting the key quickly increased the
>>>> amplitude ;)
>>>>
>>>> On 18 October 2012 21:22, Michael Gogins 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Because it is derived from the velocity with which the finger strikes
>>>>> the key, which in a piano is what controls how hard the hammer hits
>>>>> the string.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Rory Walsh  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm just going to put it out there, and as the movie goes, if you
>>>>>> don't like you can send it back. How is it that the word 'velocity',
>>>>>> which I learned in school to be speed in a given direction, is the
>>>>>> word used to describe the amplitude of MIDI notes?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>>>>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>>>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>>>> csound"
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Michael Gogins
>>>>> Irreducible Productions
>>>>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>>>>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>>>>
>>>>> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>>>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>>> csound"
>>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>>>
>>>> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>>>> csound"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>>             https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>>> csound"
>>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>              https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>

It had to do with the hardware implementation in those days
As soon as you pressed a key the first contact was triggered. When the key
came down, the second contact was triggered. The time difference between the
2 contacts, thus the velocity, was a rough measure for the key pressure.

Richard






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Just in case --

In (acoustic) piano playing, the velocity most directly affecting
volume is that at which the hammer hits the string.  This factor,
as a sole determiner of volume, is more dependable than that
of finger-stroke speed, whose influence depends more variably
on the additional factors of force and direction.  (One can, for
instance, slap a key terrifically fast, but so very lightly that its
hammer never reaches the string.)

Pete


Rory Walsh wrote:
> Thanks guys. Top marks! Still kind of a misnomer though isn't it?
> Still, at least I can sleep easy now. And although I'm not a keyboard
> player, I have noticed that hitting the key quickly increased the
> amplitude ;)
>
> On 18 October 2012 21:22, Michael Gogins  wrote:
>> Because it is derived from the velocity with which the finger strikes
>> the key, which in a piano is what controls how hard the hammer hits
>> the string.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Rory Walsh  wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm just going to put it out there, and as the movie goes, if you
>>> don't like you can send it back. How is it that the word 'velocity',
>>> which I learned in school to be speed in a given direction, is the
>>> word used to describe the amplitude of MIDI notes?
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>>              https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Gogins
>> Irreducible Productions
>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>              https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>              https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>
>

Skimming through the thread, I'm not sure anybody mentioned that your initial
question embodies a sort of conceptual slippage. The mapping of key velocity
to note amplitude is arbitrary. The two (velocity and amplitude) are
different beasts, and mapping the one to the other is not, in any good MIDI
synthesizer, a requirement of the design -- it's just a generally useful
mapping (because, as others have noted, it models the response of a piano).

You can easily de-couple velocity from amplitude and use it for LFO rate or
depth, for example, or the detuning amount of two oscillators. Or just toss
the value out, if you don't need it. Most commercial synths come with organ
presets, which typically have no velocity response at all.

So the term "velocity" is not a misnomer -- it's an accurate description of
what is being measured at the keyboard. (At least, on most keyboards. Some
actually measure impact force, not velocity, and then translate that into a
MIDI velocity value.)

--JA



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