Hi, try this :

http://www.csounds.com/manual/html/a.html



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and since 3 days there is an example in GIT:
http://csound.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=csound/manual.git;a=blob;f=examples/a.csd;h=43cc256cf8e7dcb7c640c6b9c09e088973923976;hb=d5c440b3b42f8e944b4fc08c638face4091c758d

which will be in the next manual.




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Hello,

I support these ideas very much - I have felt need for the same possibilities - have a temo curve that overrides section boundaries and advance over sections.

Thanks for formualting the question, Aseem!

tarmo

On Friday 19 October 2012 05:04:45 Richard Boulanger wrote:

Menno,

Hello.  Hope you are well. 

The example looks great.  

And the man page is clear too about advancing; 

but what Aseem and I were both wondering, in response to his question in class this week was:::::

 is if there is a way to use a statement, like a (advance), at the top of the score, that would allow for 

advancing from section to section.  Or could the developers consider adding one.

I am imagining something like this:

as3  (advance to section 3)

as6 0 0 5 (advance to section 6 and start 5 seconds in)

and maybe I am dreaming here but then maybe I could then build up a composition (from all my little etude studies and modifications and explorations) by stringing together "as" statements like this

as1

as3

as2

as3

as1

as4

as3

as6 0 0 5

as3 0 0 3

as1

And... 

Related to this would be the hope that we could have some sort of TEMPO curve - a "tg" statement (for global tempo) that would allow for the specification of a tempo curve that would continue over several sections of a score.

tg s1 60 12 120 s2 110 .......  just dreaming.

-----------------------------------------

Dr. Richard Boulanger, Ph.D.   

rboulanger@berklee.edu

Professor of Electronic Production and Design

Professional Writing and Music Technology Division

Berklee College of Music

617-747-2485 (office)  774-488-9166 (cell)

http://csounds.com/boulanger     http://csounds.com/mathews

http://boulangerlabs.com    http://csoundforlive.com   http://csounds.com

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Oct 19, 2012, at 4:44 AM, menno <nabob_cd@yahoo.com> wrote:

and since 3 days there is an example in GIT:
http://csound.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=csound/manual.git;a=blob;f=examples/a.csd;h=43cc256cf8e7dcb7c640c6b9c09e088973923976;hb=d5c440b3b42f8e944b4fc08c638face4091c758d

which will be in the next manual.




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and there is x too, to skip the section (or the rest of):

    http://www.csounds.com/manual/html/x.html

that seem to work, althought it's not recognized
by the parser (both old as new).

ciao,
francesco.




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Great ideas, Richard. I hope a future version of the score language can
include both section re-ordering and a global tempo map.

The fact that only one section at a time can play, and must end before the
next section (however we define "next") can begin, is also a significant
limitation. Ideally, sections ought to be independent entities that can
overlap with one another and run concurrently.

--JA



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> Great ideas, Richard. I hope a future version of the score language can
> include both section re-ordering and a global tempo map.
>

That is a major change

> The fact that only one section at a time can play, and must end before the
> next section (however we define "next") can begin, is also a significant
> limitation. Ideally, sections ought to be independent entities that can
> overlap with one another and run concurrently.

Overlapping sectionbs can be (sort of) achieved with the b score opcode
At least I have used it, including creating a canon.

==John ff

> > Great ideas, Richard. I hope a future version of the score language can
> > include both section re-ordering and a global tempo map.
>
> That is a major change 

Without knowing the details, I guessed that. That's why I said "a future
version" and not "the next release."

> Overlapping sectionbs can be (sort of) achieved with the b score opcode
> At least I have used it, including creating a canon. 

Yes, this method works very well for overlapping phrases, but unfortunately
it wouldn't help the original poster.

I'm not suggesting that Csound should Do Everything Conceivable. These are
interesting concepts to kick around, that's all. I never use sections in
Csound, and it's precisely because there has to be a moment of silence
between sections. To me, this violates the notion that a piece of music
should be one continuous flow. Of course there are G.P.'s in orchestral
music, I know that ... but not many of them. The sectioning of a piece by a
G.P. is not a base-level feature of orchestral scoring in the way that the
section is a base-level feature of a Csound score.

--JA



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This is doable if you construct your score algorithmically; make an
instrument / opcode / function that takes a start time and some set of
parameters and generates events, vary the start times and keep other
arguments constant and you have your "overlapping sections", but
without direct csound syntactic support. This is much easier using a
programmatic frontend than directly in csound itself (but arguably for
something of this type you should be using an algorithmic programming
library and not directly using csound anyway).

On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 10:19 AM, Jim Aikin  wrote:
>> > Great ideas, Richard. I hope a future version of the score language can
>> > include both section re-ordering and a global tempo map.
>>
>> That is a major change
>
> Without knowing the details, I guessed that. That's why I said "a future
> version" and not "the next release."
>
>> Overlapping sectionbs can be (sort of) achieved with the b score opcode
>> At least I have used it, including creating a canon.
>
> Yes, this method works very well for overlapping phrases, but unfortunately
> it wouldn't help the original poster.
>
> I'm not suggesting that Csound should Do Everything Conceivable. These are
> interesting concepts to kick around, that's all. I never use sections in
> Csound, and it's precisely because there has to be a moment of silence
> between sections. To me, this violates the notion that a piece of music
> should be one continuous flow. Of course there are G.P.'s in orchestral
> music, I know that ... but not many of them. The sectioning of a piece by a
> G.P. is not a base-level feature of orchestral scoring in the way that the
> section is a base-level feature of a Csound score.
>
> --JA
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/Advance-Sections-in-CSound-tp5717051p5717109.html
> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>             https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>

On 19/10/2012 18:19, Jim Aikin wrote:
..
>
> I'm not suggesting that Csound should Do Everything Conceivable. These are
> interesting concepts to kick around, that's all. I never use sections in
> Csound, and it's precisely because there has to be a moment of silence
> between sections. To me, this violates the notion that a piece of music
> should be one continuous flow. Of course there are G.P.'s in orchestral
> music, I know that ... but not many of them. The sectioning of a piece by a
> G.P. is not a base-level feature of orchestral scoring in the way that the
> section is a base-level feature of a Csound score.
>



!!!!!?????  What notion is that?  I find (and enjoy) silences in music 
all the time. And I listen to stuff from periods from, say, the Notre 
Dame school onwards. To say nothing of non-western musics of all 
species. Silences are everywhere. They are not just a "G.P" - but empty 
bars, gaps between, um, sections. Oh, and breaths. Phrases even. Silence 
is (or at least used to be) a vital element in the composer's art.

This explains a lot about contemporary (and not so contemporary) e/a 
music. I suspect some composers are wary of putting in a silence (with 
of course no visual clue as to what is going on) as they fear, with some 
justification, that any silence will induce the audience to clap in the 
fond hope the thing has finished! It does happen at orchestral concerts 
too, sometimes.

Notions are made to be broken...


Richard Dobson

There doesn't *have* to be silence from section to section; in fact,
you can run opcodes that skip initialization across section
boundaries. (I think.)

On 10/19/12, Richard Dobson  wrote:
> On 19/10/2012 18:19, Jim Aikin wrote:
> ..
>>
>> I'm not suggesting that Csound should Do Everything Conceivable. These
>> are
>> interesting concepts to kick around, that's all. I never use sections in
>> Csound, and it's precisely because there has to be a moment of silence
>> between sections. To me, this violates the notion that a piece of music
>> should be one continuous flow. Of course there are G.P.'s in orchestral
>> music, I know that ... but not many of them. The sectioning of a piece by
>> a
>> G.P. is not a base-level feature of orchestral scoring in the way that
>> the
>> section is a base-level feature of a Csound score.
>>
>
>
>
> !!!!!?????  What notion is that?  I find (and enjoy) silences in music
> all the time. And I listen to stuff from periods from, say, the Notre
> Dame school onwards. To say nothing of non-western musics of all
> species. Silences are everywhere. They are not just a "G.P" - but empty
> bars, gaps between, um, sections. Oh, and breaths. Phrases even. Silence
> is (or at least used to be) a vital element in the composer's art.
>
> This explains a lot about contemporary (and not so contemporary) e/a
> music. I suspect some composers are wary of putting in a silence (with
> of course no visual clue as to what is going on) as they fear, with some
> justification, that any silence will induce the audience to clap in the
> fond hope the thing has finished! It does happen at orchestral concerts
> too, sometimes.
>
> Notions are made to be broken...
>
>
> Richard Dobson
>
>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>             https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>
>

>
> !!!!!?????  What notion is that?  I find (and enjoy) silences in music
> all the time. And I listen to stuff from periods from, say, the Notre
> Dame school onwards. To say nothing of non-western musics of all
> species. Silences are everywhere. They are not just a "G.P" - but empty
> bars, gaps between, um, sections. Oh, and breaths. Phrases even. Silence
> is (or at least used to be) a vital element in the composer's art.
>
> This explains a lot about contemporary (and not so contemporary) e/a
> music. I suspect some composers are wary of putting in a silence (with
> of course no visual clue as to what is going on) as they fear, with some
> justification, that any silence will induce the audience to clap in the
> fond hope the thing has finished! It does happen at orchestral concerts
> too, sometimes.
>

OTOH at the UK premier of one of my works which has silences in it the
audience did NOT do anything at the end and sat silently...  I was so
embarassed.  Never written silences since!

==John ff

> Notions are made to be broken...
>
>
> Richard Dobson
>
>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>             https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>
>
>
>

...

On 10/19/12 13:19 , Jim Aikin wrote:
> To me, this violates the notion that a piece of music
> should be one continuous flow. Of course there are G.P.'s in orchestral
> music, I know that ... but not many of them. The sectioning of a piece by a
> G.P. is not a base-level feature of orchestral scoring in the way that the
> section is a base-level feature of a Csound score.

in our world of constant stimulation a moment of silence is a glitch- 
something failed! and then- now what? the person will have to think for 
themselves? look around? daydream?

heavens no! [note: sarcasm]

with the cage centennial this year i have been listening to a lot of 
music with silence in it. and really, silence is as important to music 
as white space is to visual art [or webpages].

i went to see the zelda symphony put on by nintendo last night 
[http://zelda-symphony.com/]. i had two salient observations.

- video game music is interesting, but not in the same way as symphonic 
music [as it is essentially in a supporting role]. often times, the 
endings seemed at best arbitrary [since the music changes based on game 
progress instead of a composer's aesthetic decisions].

- people applauded at the first 'sound' of silence, which supports your 
assertions about general pauses. i'm sure each of us can think of a 
musical selection where a well placed pause really helps the overall 
aesthetic effect of a musical piece. ['o sister' off of dylan's rolling 
thunder official bootleg from sony comes to mind, but this is only one 
very small example among hundreds of thousands (i'd guess)]

calm down!

-- 
\js [http://or8.net/~johns/] : i am alive

> calm down! 

Not to steer this thread in the direction of irrelevancies, but I was
actually calm. I don't think I wrote anything that could be construed as
overwrought. At least, I hope not. Sorry if it came across that way.

> with the cage centennial this year i have been listening to a lot of
> music with silence in it. and really, silence is as important to music
> as white space is to visual art [or webpages]. 

Leaving aside my thoughts about Cage's music (I like the prepared piano
pieces...), I believe one of the points he made (in a book by the same name)
is that there is actually no such thing as silence. Nonetheless, there are
certainly places in conventional music where all of the players have ceased,
momentarily, making intentional noises. However, I think we need to be a bit
more precise about our definitions.

In the first place, relatively few of those places (surely less than 50%)
are at section breaks. Most of them (speaking here of pre-1950 orchestral
and chamber music) occur in the midst of moments of drama, when a whole
ensemble is playing unison chords separated by _brief_ rests.

Second, I'm not convinced that white space in visual design is actually
empty. If it were empty, it would be black or transparent, not white. "White
space" in visual design (which could be, in fact, cream-colored, light gray,
or perhaps pale green) provides a background against which foreground shapes
stand forth, very much in the way that a left-hand alberti bass in a piano
piece (which is NOT silence) provides a background against which Haydn or
Mozart deploys a foreground melody.

In the third place, there are enormous numbers of wonderful pieces of
classical music in which sound is being produced continually from start to
finish -- in which there is NO silence. Are these pieces deficient in terms
of creating perceptible shapes and even foreground/background relationships?
Clearly not.

In any event, it's clearly up to the composer to deploy silence as he or she
sees fit. Because Csound section boundaries enforce a moment of silence, the
use of sections imposes an artificial limitation on the composer. That's
really all I'm trying to say. If you want to deploy great swaths of silence
in a Csound piece, you're certainly free to do so, with or without the use
of section boundaries, but if you don't care for silence, you can't use
sections.

--JA



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Gosh, I have tons of silences in my new piece. On the other hand the problem is this in acousmatic music: a sound fading away transports the listener to a space beyond the listening space. When it decays all the way to silence suddenly the listener becomes aware of the acoustic surroundings and is pulled out of the piece.  Silences, great as they are, are very difficult to pull in EA music.

Best,

Peiman   

On 19 October 2012 18:42, Richard Dobson <richarddobson@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 19/10/2012 18:19, Jim Aikin wrote:
..

I'm not suggesting that Csound should Do Everything Conceivable. These are
interesting concepts to kick around, that's all. I never use sections in
Csound, and it's precisely because there has to be a moment of silence
between sections. To me, this violates the notion that a piece of music
should be one continuous flow. Of course there are G.P.'s in orchestral
music, I know that ... but not many of them. The sectioning of a piece by a
G.P. is not a base-level feature of orchestral scoring in the way that the
section is a base-level feature of a Csound score.

!!!!!?????  What notion is that?  I find (and enjoy) silences in music all the time. And I listen to stuff from periods from, say, the Notre Dame school onwards. To say nothing of non-western musics of all species. Silences are everywhere. They are not just a "G.P" - but empty bars, gaps between, um, sections. Oh, and breaths. Phrases even. Silence is (or at least used to be) a vital element in the composer's art.

This explains a lot about contemporary (and not so contemporary) e/a music. I suspect some composers are wary of putting in a silence (with of course no visual clue as to what is going on) as they fear, with some justification, that any silence will induce the audience to clap in the fond hope the thing has finished! It does happen at orchestral concerts too, sometimes.

Notions are made to be broken...


Richard Dobson

Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
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Of course for private listening, any amount of silence is possible. And 
even for public performance, if the imperative to applaud at the end is 
excluded. I have done (acoustic) concerts that way several times - we 
allow applause only at the very end of the event. To mark symbolically 
the end of the piece (and even allowing specifically for a terminating 
silence), you could use, with due instruction to the audience 
beforehand, tingshaws (small tibetan temple cymbals, sounds like a high 
crotale) to signal that the audience can "come out of state" and cough, 
fidget, unwrap sweets, send emails and tweets, etc. That way they do not 
even need to have their eyes open looking for a bow or whatever. It is 
not part of the piece, just part of the ritual of public presentation.

Richard Dobson

On 20/10/2012 10:23, peiman khosravi wrote:
> Thanks Michael,
>
> Interestingly some like the piece because it constantly 'reflects' on
> itself as the silences bring the listener out of the piece. I had a
> discussion with my supervisor yesterday and he suggested that I close in
> the gaps a bit. Also some long fade-outs don't sound like silences in
> the studio but they do in a larger space so the levels have to be
> adjusted. It was also suggested that perhaps I can have the sections as
> separate soundfiles and adjust the gaps between them depending on the
> performance space.
>
> I'd send it but it's a 6 channel work and the stereo reduction (which I
> tried) just doesn't work at all.
>

Yes, I agree.  Being able to advance by sections in addition to 
beats or seconds would be really helpful.  As would a global tempo.
RFoose

On 13:59, Richard Boulanger wrote:
> Menno,
>
> Hello. Hope you are well.
>
> The example looks great.
>
> And the man page is clear too about advancing;
>
> but what Aseem and I were both wondering, in response to his
> question in class this week was:::::
>
> is if there is a way to use a statement, like a (advance), at
> the top of the score, that would allow for
> advancing from section to section. Or could the developers
> consider adding one.
>
> I am imagining something like this:
>
> as3 (advance to section 3)
>
> as6 0 0 5 (advance to section 6 and start 5 seconds in)
>
> and maybe I am dreaming here but then maybe I could then build
> up a composition (from all my little etude studies and
> modifications and explorations) by stringing together "as"
> statements like this
>
> as1
> as3
> as2
> as3
> as1
> as4
> as3
> as6 0 0 5
> as3 0 0 3
> as1
>
> And...
>
> Related to this would be the hope that we could have some sort
> of TEMPO curve - a "tg" statement (for global tempo) that would
> allow for the specification of a tempo curve that would continue
> over several sections of a score.
>
> tg s1 60 12 120 s2 110 ....... just dreaming.
>
>
> *-----------------------------------------*
> *Dr. Richard Boulanger, Ph.D. *
> rboulanger@berklee.edu 
> Professor of Electronic Production and Design
> Professional Writing and Music Technology Division
> *Berklee College of Music*
> 617-747-2485 (office) 774-488-9166 (cell)
> http://csounds.com/boulanger http://csounds.com/mathews
> http://boulangerlabs.com http://csoundforlive.com
>  http://csounds.com 
> *-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
>
> On Oct 19, 2012, at 4:44 AM, menno  > wrote:
>
>> and since 3 days there is an example in GIT:
>> http://csound.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=csound/manual.git;a=blob;f=examples/a.csd;h=43cc256cf8e7dcb7c640c6b9c09e088973923976;hb=d5c440b3b42f8e944b4fc08c638face4091c758d
>>
>> which will be in the next manual.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/Advance-Sections-in-CSound-tp5717051p5717065.html
>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>