Csound Csound-dev Csound-tekno Search About

[Csnd] Re: Beginner questions on realtime csound work

Date2009-05-21 12:44
Frommichael.gogins@gmail.com
Subject[Csnd] Re: Beginner questions on realtime csound work
Csound is appropriate for your requirements, but it may or may not be 
optimal.

Most people who do what you want to do currently use Max/MSP. To some 
extent, this is because they teach Max/MSP in universities now because 
"music technology" programs teach it because commercial sound designers use 
it. But to some extent, Max as a tool is designed for this job.

Pure Data, which is free software, does pretty much what Max/MSP does, and I 
personally have heard live performances based on PD that were most 
impressive, musically and technically, including performance-triggered 
routines.

Reaktor also is used for this kind of thing.

As a composer and Csound developer, I am quite aware that Csound can do 
pretty much whatever Max or PD can do, except for the video processing 
stuff, plus additional stuff with sound based on the PVS opcodes and so on. 
However, it probably would take some additional development to create a live 
performance/interactive environment that works for you. But I know that it 
can be done - here in NYC Bruce McKinney is working on getting Csound to 
play along with his trumpet, and preliminary results that I have seen are 
very good. There certainly is no problem in getting Csound to trigger times 
and pitches, and note generation, off a miced trumpet.

About the hardware, almost all musicians, especially commercial or popular 
ones, use the Mac. But, of course, both Windows and Linux will serve. Again, 
if you use Linux, expect to do some more monkeying around to get things to 
work the way you want.

Regarding hardware, your speakers and your audio interface are more 
important than the computer. Get the best professional monitor speakers that 
you can afford, and learn how to use them from Bob Katz. Also get the best 
mics and preamps that you can afford. Most current home or business 
computers are adequate for computer music. If you specifically want high 
performance and like to play with gear, look at gaming computers in hobbyist 
magazines, then build one yourself. If you do that, stick it in a soundproof 
box and use liquid cooling to cut down on computer noise. Use an outboard 
USB 2 audio interface. If you have the dough, get a portable professional 
DAC (Sapphire e.g.).

Myself, for my music, I use Csound with Python, and I work on Windows and on 
Eeebuntu (netbook version of Ubuntu). I work on home notebook computers.

I would say the bottom line is, if you already are using Windows or the Mac, 
keep on using it; if you are committed to using Linux, be prepared for some 
hassles but go ahead.

Hope this helps,
Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jason Conklin" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 2:21 AM
Subject: [Csnd] Beginner questions on realtime csound work


>I have some beginnerish questions for the list, inspired in part by
> some recent threads (esp. the ones on the beginner/intermediate
> learning curve and this current Haskell/functional programming
> thread). I've gotten a sense from these discussions of how much
> variety good approaches to algorithmic composition and experimentation
> can have, whether using csound, csound in concert with other tools, or
> entirely different software. I'm looking for some sense of how to
> approach this variety without too much dizziness.
>
> My intentions, although flexible and experimental/open-ended, are
> centered around a desire to put together some algorithmically based
> performance pieces (compare Risset's "Duet for one pianist" and stuff
> along those lines, perhaps). I play the flute, and have for years
> wanted to build programs capable of "playing along", according to
> various rules, with live flute (or other instrumental) playing. I have
> recently, finally dived into csound, which has been great, but I
> currently feel like I'm aiming at a point that I can't see: a place
> where I can play with those ideas.
>
> This leads to my two "big" questions, one more long-term and
> csound/programming-oriented, and the other more immediate, about
> system platform and hardware requirements.
>
> First, and mainly, am I even on the right track? From what I can tell,
> csound is plenty appropriate for developing such ideas, but I don't
> know enough yet to be certain. I have a basic understanding of the
> orchestra and score, but familiarity with only a handful of synthesis
> opcodes and i/o techniques. I'm a total newb when it comes to
> score-processing and other "add-ons" like Python or Blue - although
> working on Tobiah's sinewave challenge, entirely in vi, definitely
> gave me a sense of that stuff's value! Basically, what do I need to
> delve into and work on now in order to work with real-time input?
>
> The second question is much more direct. I hope to put together a
> machine in the near future; something capable as a system for this
> kind of work. I haven't thought a lot about new-computer parts in a
> while, though, and wonder what I'll need to have or know as I go
> shopping/building. Any certain minimum specs on processor or
> sound-card options? Any tricky system-building considerations? For a
> few reasons I'll most likely be running Ubuntu Studio (the new release
> with the realtime kernel), but that's not set in stone. The rest is up
> in the air at this stage. Any recommendations or caveats?
>
> I know there's a lot here; feel free to respond only to little chunks
> or ask me if I haven't been clear about anything. I'm still figuring
> it out myself. Thanks
>
> /jc
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe 
> csound"
> 


Date2009-05-21 13:22
FromAndres Cabrera
Subject[Csnd] Re: Re: Beginner questions on realtime csound work
Hi,

On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 6:44 AM,   wrote:

> Use an outboard
> USB 2 audio interface. If you have the dough, get a portable professional
> DAC (Sapphire e.g.).
>

I think most usb2 cards are not supported in linux (you need to check
the alsa compatibility list carefully) since they use propietary
interfaces. Many firewire cards are, you need to check ffado. However
I've found that PCI cards tend to have better performance than USB and
firewire cards. I'm not sure if that's stuill true nowadays.

Cheers,
Andrés


Date2009-05-21 13:38
FromVictor.Lazzarini@nuim.ie
Subject[Csnd] Re: Re: Re: Beginner questions on realtime csound work
AttachmentsNone  None  

Date2009-05-21 13:48
FromAndres Cabrera
Subject[Csnd] Re: Re: Re: Re: Beginner questions on realtime csound work
I meant better performance in CPU terms, not audio quality.

Cheers,
Andrés

On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 7:38 AM,   wrote:
> Once I heard some, possibly pedantic, opinions that all
> soundcards, internal or external, that are dependent on
> electrical connections are deficient and will not give you
> the S/N ratio advertised. I could not follow the technical
> argument at the time, something to do with grounding,
> but the person stating it said that the only worthwhile
> solution was some sort of digital optical link to an
> external, electrically-isolated, ADC/DAC.
>
> I wonder if anyone knows about this.
>
> Regards
>
> Victor
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andres Cabrera 
> Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009 1:22 pm
> Subject: [Csnd] Re: Re: Beginner questions on realtime csound work
> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 6:44 AM,
>>  wrote:
>>
>> > Use an outboard
>> > USB 2 audio interface. If you have the dough, get a portable
>> professional> DAC (Sapphire e.g.).
>> >
>>
>> I think most usb2 cards are not supported in linux (you need to check
>> the alsa compatibility list carefully) since they use propietary
>> interfaces. Many firewire cards are, you need to check ffado. However
>> I've found that PCI cards tend to have better performance than
>> USB and
>> firewire cards. I'm not sure if that's stuill true nowadays.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Andrés
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>
> Dr Victor Lazzarini, Senior Lecturer, Dept. of Music,National University of
> Ireland, Maynooth
>



-- 


Andrés


Date2009-05-21 14:00
FromVictor.Lazzarini@nuim.ie
Subject[Csnd] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Beginner questions on realtime csound work
AttachmentsNone  None  

Date2009-05-21 14:03
FromMichael Gogins
Subject[Csnd] Re: Re: Re: Re: Beginner questions on realtime csound work
When I sample the gear lists of mastering rooms (this is the gold
standard for audio gear, and mastering studios tend to publish their
gear lists), I see that all of the DAC models I checked support
optical inputs. I do not know, however, how many studios actually use
these optical inputs as opposed to electronic cables.

At a guess, since high-end DACs do have optical interfaces, they must
be used by at least some studios. This seems to get part of the way to
an answer...

Regards,
Mike

On 5/21/09, Victor.Lazzarini@nuim.ie  wrote:
> Once I heard some, possibly pedantic, opinions that allsoundcards, internal
> or external, that are dependent on electrical connections are deficient and
> will not give youthe S/N ratio advertised. I could not follow the
> technicalargument at the time, something to do with grounding,but the person
> stating it said that the only worthwhilesolution was some sort of digital
> optical link to anexternal, electrically-isolated, ADC/DAC. I wonder if
> anyone knows about this.RegardsVictor----- Original Message -----From:
> Andres Cabrera Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009 1:22
> pmSubject: [Csnd] Re: Re: Beginner questions on realtime csound workTo:
> csound@lists.bath.ac.uk> Hi,> > On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 6:44 AM,  >
>  wrote:> > > Use an outboard> > USB 2 audio
> interface. If you have the dough, get a portable > professional> DAC
> (Sapphire e.g.).> >> > I think most usb2 cards are not supported in linux
> (you need to check> the alsa compatibility list carefully) since they use
> propietary> interfaces. Many firewire cards are, you need to check ffado.
> However> I've found that PCI cards tend to have better performance than >
> USB and> firewire cards. I'm not sure if that's stuill true nowadays.> >
> Cheers,> Andrés> > > Send bugs reports to this list.> To unsubscribe, send
> email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body > "unsubscribe csound"Dr Victor
> Lazzarini, Senior Lecturer, Dept. of Music,National University of Ireland,
> Maynooth
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"


-- 
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


Date2009-05-22 00:04
Frompeiman khosravi
Subject[Csnd] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Beginner questions on realtime csound work
This is kind of off-topic I know, so apologies already...

I have recently put the optical I/O into good use. I wanted to run protools at home without having to rely on digidesign hardware which basically means paying lots of money for crappy interfaces and convertors (unless you buy the big boy HD which is absurd for a stereo home studio and I can't afford it anyway).

So I got a little m-audio interface (transit) for under £50 with protools M-power and am simply using it in order to run PT and passing the digital signal through to my PreSonus interface. With a little optical-to-coaxial convertor and a bit of Jack OS X rewiring I can pass the output of PT onto my chosen interface at no lose of quality. Amazingly this doesn't require much setup as long as I don't change my soundcards's sample-rate everything runs smoothly side bye side (change of sr puts the clocks out of sync and needs reseting).

Peiman     

2009/5/21 Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@gmail.com>
When I sample the gear lists of mastering rooms (this is the gold
standard for audio gear, and mastering studios tend to publish their
gear lists), I see that all of the DAC models I checked support
optical inputs. I do not know, however, how many studios actually use
these optical inputs as opposed to electronic cables.

At a guess, since high-end DACs do have optical interfaces, they must
be used by at least some studios. This seems to get part of the way to
an answer...

Regards,
Mike

On 5/21/09, Victor.Lazzarini@nuim.ie <Victor.Lazzarini@nuim.ie> wrote:
> Once I heard some, possibly pedantic, opinions that allsoundcards, internal
> or external, that are dependent on electrical connections are deficient and
> will not give youthe S/N ratio advertised. I could not follow the
> technicalargument at the time, something to do with grounding,but the person
> stating it said that the only worthwhilesolution was some sort of digital
> optical link to anexternal, electrically-isolated, ADC/DAC. I wonder if
> anyone knows about this.RegardsVictor----- Original Message -----From:
> Andres Cabrera <mantaraya36@gmail.com>Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009 1:22
> pmSubject: [Csnd] Re: Re: Beginner questions on realtime csound workTo:
> csound@lists.bath.ac.uk> Hi,> > On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 6:44 AM,  >
> <michael.gogins@gmail.com> wrote:> > > Use an outboard> > USB 2 audio
> interface. If you have the dough, get a portable > professional> DAC
> (Sapphire e.g.).> >> > I think most usb2 cards are not supported in linux
> (you need to check> the alsa compatibility list carefully) since they use
> propietary> interfaces. Many firewire cards are, you need to check ffado.
> However> I've found that PCI cards tend to have better performance than >
> USB and> firewire cards. I'm not sure if that's stuill true nowadays.> >
> Cheers,> Andrés> > > Send bugs reports to this list.> To unsubscribe, send
> email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body > "unsubscribe csound"Dr Victor
> Lazzarini, Senior Lecturer, Dept. of Music,National University of Ireland,
> Maynooth
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"


--
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"


Date2009-05-22 00:06
Frompeiman khosravi
Subject[Csnd] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Beginner questions on realtime csound work
On another note, I use csound for live fft stuff within maxmsp, using csound~ external.

2009/5/22 peiman khosravi <peimankhosravi@gmail.com>
This is kind of off-topic I know, so apologies already...

I have recently put the optical I/O into good use. I wanted to run protools at home without having to rely on digidesign hardware which basically means paying lots of money for crappy interfaces and convertors (unless you buy the big boy HD which is absurd for a stereo home studio and I can't afford it anyway).

So I got a little m-audio interface (transit) for under £50 with protools M-power and am simply using it in order to run PT and passing the digital signal through to my PreSonus interface. With a little optical-to-coaxial convertor and a bit of Jack OS X rewiring I can pass the output of PT onto my chosen interface at no lose of quality. Amazingly this doesn't require much setup as long as I don't change my soundcards's sample-rate everything runs smoothly side bye side (change of sr puts the clocks out of sync and needs reseting).

Peiman     

2009/5/21 Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@gmail.com>

When I sample the gear lists of mastering rooms (this is the gold
standard for audio gear, and mastering studios tend to publish their
gear lists), I see that all of the DAC models I checked support
optical inputs. I do not know, however, how many studios actually use
these optical inputs as opposed to electronic cables.

At a guess, since high-end DACs do have optical interfaces, they must
be used by at least some studios. This seems to get part of the way to
an answer...

Regards,
Mike

On 5/21/09, Victor.Lazzarini@nuim.ie <Victor.Lazzarini@nuim.ie> wrote:
> Once I heard some, possibly pedantic, opinions that allsoundcards, internal
> or external, that are dependent on electrical connections are deficient and
> will not give youthe S/N ratio advertised. I could not follow the
> technicalargument at the time, something to do with grounding,but the person
> stating it said that the only worthwhilesolution was some sort of digital
> optical link to anexternal, electrically-isolated, ADC/DAC. I wonder if
> anyone knows about this.RegardsVictor----- Original Message -----From:
> Andres Cabrera <mantaraya36@gmail.com>Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009 1:22
> pmSubject: [Csnd] Re: Re: Beginner questions on realtime csound workTo:
> csound@lists.bath.ac.uk> Hi,> > On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 6:44 AM,  >
> <michael.gogins@gmail.com> wrote:> > > Use an outboard> > USB 2 audio
> interface. If you have the dough, get a portable > professional> DAC
> (Sapphire e.g.).> >> > I think most usb2 cards are not supported in linux
> (you need to check> the alsa compatibility list carefully) since they use
> propietary> interfaces. Many firewire cards are, you need to check ffado.
> However> I've found that PCI cards tend to have better performance than >
> USB and> firewire cards. I'm not sure if that's stuill true nowadays.> >
> Cheers,> Andrés> > > Send bugs reports to this list.> To unsubscribe, send
> email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body > "unsubscribe csound"Dr Victor
> Lazzarini, Senior Lecturer, Dept. of Music,National University of Ireland,
> Maynooth
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"


--
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"



Date2009-05-22 03:06
FromFelipe Sateler
Subject[Csnd] Re: Re: Re: Re: Beginner questions on realtime csound work
AttachmentsNone