This is off-topic, but if you want to see what a real musician can do with 
some samples of other music, samples of video game sounds, drum machines and 
string synths, some cell-phone recordings, and SoundForge (Burial claims no 
other software was used), check out Burial's _Untrue_.

A secretive, pseudonymous sort of a person, Mr. Burial. One always wonders 
who such people really are - if their snippets of story are true, or a 
story.

The reasons I mention this music here are (a) it is I think very good music, 
(b) it is definitely computer music in the sense that it was made on a 
computer using software editors and instruments and not 'real' instruments 
(though it is only tangentially like what might be heard an an ICMC, say), 
and (c) it could not possibly have been made with Csound -- it was sculpted 
in the, in this context, very appropriately named SoundForge. I'm guessing, 
but I bet it took a lot of time to put this together. Of course, SoundForge 
is a very capable sound editor: high-resolution audio, full support for 
looping, all kinds of built-in processing. Not multi-track though; 
multi-channel. Maybe you can simulate multi-track with triggering.

Anyone else heard this stuff?

Regards,
Mike 

Michael Gogins wrote:

> This is off-topic, but if you want to see what a real musician can do with 
> some samples of other music, samples of video game sounds, drum machines and 
> string synths, some cell-phone recordings, and SoundForge (Burial claims no 
> other software was used), check out Burial's _Untrue_.

Very, very interesting. Here's some info:

    http://hyperdubrecords.blogspot.com/2007/10/burial-untrue-november-2007.html
    http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/article/record_review/46887-untrue

I've ordered the CD (so I can rip it to Ogg :-)).

Erik
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Erik de Castro Lopo
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"It's far too easy to make fun of Microsoft products, but it takes a
real man to make them work, and a god to make them do anything useful"
  -- Anonymous

I think the first album, self-titled, is much better. That's splitting  
hairs though.

b

On Jan 11, 2008, at 7:23 PM, Michael Gogins wrote:

> This is off-topic, but if you want to see what a real musician can  
> do with some samples of other music, samples of video game sounds,  
> drum machines and string synths, some cell-phone recordings, and  
> SoundForge (Burial claims no other software was used), check out  
> Burial's _Untrue_.
>
> A secretive, pseudonymous sort of a person, Mr. Burial. One always  
> wonders who such people really are - if their snippets of story are  
> true, or a story.
>
> The reasons I mention this music here are (a) it is I think very  
> good music, (b) it is definitely computer music in the sense that it  
> was made on a computer using software editors and instruments and  
> not 'real' instruments (though it is only tangentially like what  
> might be heard an an ICMC, say), and (c) it could not possibly have  
> been made with Csound -- it was sculpted in the, in this context,  
> very appropriately named SoundForge. I'm guessing, but I bet it took  
> a lot of time to put this together. Of course, SoundForge is a very  
> capable sound editor: high-resolution audio, full support for  
> looping, all kinds of built-in processing. Not multi-track though;  
> multi-channel. Maybe you can simulate multi-track with triggering.
>
> Anyone else heard this stuff?
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

--
Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology

San Francisco, CA
Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew (at) gmail (dot) com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http://www.barrythrew.com

"The greatest of the changes that science has brought us is the acuity  
of change; the greatest novelty the extent of novelty."
- J. Robert Oppenheimer

OH NO! somebody save me please...

I've just been having this discussion with a bunch of friends about Burial
in conjunction the Wire magazine's top 50 for the year.....

The whole thing with Burial (& I  don't quite understand the accolades) is
how much of his sound is unoriginal to my ears.

In itself no crime, but I don't understand quite why all of a sudden
"Burial" is the bees knees.

A lot of his aesthetic is based on Maurizio & Basic Channel, who in the mid
to late 90's & early naughties released a number of 10" & 12" under the
"Rhythm & Sound" & "Burial Mix" monikers (!!!!) that are quite frankly some
of the most sonically seductive reductionist "heavy nosie floors" music one
could ever hope to hear in one's lifetime. As far as i'm concerned this
stuff makes Burial look like just another dude in a bedroom with a PC...
(EVERYBODY on this list should immediately go & download Burial Mix / Rhythm
& Sound  tracks such as "Mango Drive", "King of My Empire", "Never tell you"
etc etc...

Then there's Pole, & Deadbeat, Jan Jelinek's "Loop Finding Jazz Records",
the ~scape label in general, a large part of the Chain Reaction labels
output....

Of course, NONE of this music was made on PC (with the exception of Deadbeat
- & as far as praise goes, i pretty much limit my enjoyment to a few tracks
on ~scape number 15 - don't remeber the title...)

So fair enough, Burial takes this aesthetic, nails it onto a UK urban
context (by syncopating his kickdrum & swinging his high hats - fine by me,
i LOVE 2 step garage)  - but it's pretty much the same thought i entertained
myself circa 2003, but i was (& am) still struggling to master digital
production to a level i'm happy with that i would think about releasing
something... & in that respect, Burial (whoever he or she is) has one up on
me, & good luck to him

I don't understand the hype though - to me he's just (re)stating the
bleeding obvious.

My decision in response to all this was to basically try & nail Feldman to
this aesthetic instead! ; ) Things change however....

Even Burial's "anonimity" copies directly from the Basic Channel / Pole
lineage & aesthetic...

& i say all this admittedly without even having heard the 2007 burial
album...

Most other "grime" & "dubstep" i've heard has been dissapointing.... 

If you like Burial, you should love Pole 3, Jan Jelinek's "loop Finding
Jazz", & Most of the Rhythm & Sound / Burial Mix back catalog (despite their
being no PC in sight...)

There's a lot better & slicker 2 step out there too i'd reckon..

now let the retorts commence....


-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/-OT--Burial-tp14769488p14781196.html
Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

One could of course also regard the identifiction of "real musicians" as
those who recieve critical acclaim, commercial &/or critical backing, &/or
personal favour as questionable ; )

Ditto the assertion that drum machines and string synths aren't "real
instruments"....

Which is not to berate you Michael - I'm glad that your listening to &
enjoying Burial - it's always good to broaden one's musical horizons - & i
agree with you in as far as what is interesting about Burial is the fact
that he is 90% PC based....

I have a friend who used to do live sets with soundforge & a MIDI sequencer
(yes, you can treat it like a sampler by assigning MIDI triggers to the open
audio files as far as I am aware...)

If i was going to piece it together like this using Csound, i'd probably
just use multiple diskin opcodes....(& score the triggers using conventional
csound score notation...)


Michael Gogins wrote:
> 
> This is off-topic, but if you want to see what a real musician can do with 
> some samples of other music, samples of video game sounds, drum machines
> and 
> string synths, some cell-phone recordings, and SoundForge (Burial claims
> no 
> other software was used), check out Burial's _Untrue_.
> 
> A secretive, pseudonymous sort of a person, Mr. Burial. One always wonders 
> who such people really are - if their snippets of story are true, or a 
> story.
> 
> The reasons I mention this music here are (a) it is I think very good
> music, 
> (b) it is definitely computer music in the sense that it was made on a 
> computer using software editors and instruments and not 'real' instruments 
> (though it is only tangentially like what might be heard an an ICMC, say), 
> and (c) it could not possibly have been made with Csound -- it was
> sculpted 
> in the, in this context, very appropriately named SoundForge. I'm
> guessing, 
> but I bet it took a lot of time to put this together. Of course,
> SoundForge 
> is a very capable sound editor: high-resolution audio, full support for 
> looping, all kinds of built-in processing. Not multi-track though; 
> multi-channel. Maybe you can simulate multi-track with triggering.
> 
> Anyone else heard this stuff?
> 
> Regards,
> Mike 
> 
> 
> 
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/-OT--Burial-tp14769488p14781328.html
Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Perhaps (like Fennesz's "endless summer" a few years ago) the Burial
"phenomenon" simply illustrates how much skillful, sympathetic, state of the
art ANALOG mastering has to contribute to the advancement of computer
music... 

; )

& OK fine, let burial have his fame & fortune - it's not like we didn't have
the same issues when elvis & bill hayley ripped off the blues.

I suppose this means i'd better listen to untrue sometime.....

-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/-OT--Burial-tp14769488p14781469.html
Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Tim Mortimer wrote:
> OH NO! somebody save me please...
>
> I've just been having this discussion with a bunch of friends about Burial
> in conjunction the Wire magazine's top 50 for the year.....
>
> The whole thing with Burial (& I  don't quite understand the accolades) is
> how much of his sound is unoriginal to my ears.
>
> In itself no crime, but I don't understand quite why all of a sudden
> "Burial" is the bees knees.
>
> A lot of his aesthetic is based on Maurizio & Basic Channel, who in the mid
> to late 90's & early naughties released a number of 10" & 12" under the
> "Rhythm & Sound" & "Burial Mix" monikers (!!!!) that are quite frankly some
> of the most sonically seductive reductionist "heavy nosie floors" music one
> could ever hope to hear in one's lifetime. As far as i'm concerned this
> stuff makes Burial look like just another dude in a bedroom with a PC...
> (EVERYBODY on this list should immediately go & download Burial Mix / Rhythm
> & Sound  tracks such as "Mango Drive", "King of My Empire", "Never tell you"
> etc etc...
>
> Then there's Pole, & Deadbeat, Jan Jelinek's "Loop Finding Jazz Records",
> the ~scape label in general, a large part of the Chain Reaction labels
> output....
>
> Of course, NONE of this music was made on PC (with the exception of Deadbeat
> - & as far as praise goes, i pretty much limit my enjoyment to a few tracks
> on ~scape number 15 - don't remeber the title...)
>
> So fair enough, Burial takes this aesthetic, nails it onto a UK urban
> context (by syncopating his kickdrum & swinging his high hats - fine by me,
> i LOVE 2 step garage)  - but it's pretty much the same thought i entertained
> myself circa 2003, but i was (& am) still struggling to master digital
> production to a level i'm happy with that i would think about releasing
> something... & in that respect, Burial (whoever he or she is) has one up on
> me, & good luck to him
>
> I don't understand the hype though - to me he's just (re)stating the
> bleeding obvious.
>
> My decision in response to all this was to basically try & nail Feldman to
> this aesthetic instead! ; ) Things change however....
>
> Even Burial's "anonimity" copies directly from the Basic Channel / Pole
> lineage & aesthetic...
>
> & i say all this admittedly without even having heard the 2007 burial
> album...
>
> Most other "grime" & "dubstep" i've heard has been dissapointing.... 
>
> If you like Burial, you should love Pole 3, Jan Jelinek's "loop Finding
> Jazz", & Most of the Rhythm & Sound / Burial Mix back catalog (despite their
> being no PC in sight...)
>
> There's a lot better & slicker 2 step out there too i'd reckon..
>
> now let the retorts commence....
>
>
>   
I didn't want to join the discussion (because I hate to judge art & 
music) but I couldn't resist. Tim, I second what you're saying. I can't 
see the reason for all the hype, either.

Michael, don't get me wrong, I respect everybody's tastes. But, still, 
I'm disappointed that we're still discovering new music through the same 
old channels (and this applies to me, too). Music magazines love this 
kind of things (the "anonimity", the limitation of resources and so on). 
Sometimes, it seems to me that these are some sort of "requirements" to 
be taken seriously.

Also, I don't understand what you (Michael) mean when you say that 
Burial's music couldn't have been made with csound. Maybe, if one limits 
himself to a tool like Soundforge, this kind of output comes more naturally.

If there's a lesson here, IMO, it is that the tools and instruments you 
use to make music are just a means to an end, or better, something you 
study and use for their own sake. I like to think about csound and all 
the synthesis techniques in this way, too. I learn to use them for their 
own sake, because they're interesting. Knowing what I'm doing doesn't 
necessarily makes me a better musician. To me, one can make great music 
even drawing samples in an editor by hand. Or whistling in a microphone 
and clapping his hands.

Just my two cents.

-c.

-- 
www.cesaremarilungo.com 

Um, I listened to the demo excerpt, and did rather like it, even though 
the tracks sounded very similar. However, I have some real problems:


Tim Mortimer wrote:
..
> 
> A lot of his aesthetic 

Not really sure what "his aesthetic" is...

is based on Maurizio & Basic Channel, who in the mid
> to late 90's 

doesn't help - sadly, I have never heard of these, not even sure if they 
are people or names of labels...

..that are quite frankly some
> of the most sonically seductive reductionist "heavy nosie floors" music ...

I so wish this description connected with anything I know about. "noise 
floor" music is a new label for me, heavy or otherwise ...


As far as i'm concerned this
> stuff makes Burial look like just another dude in a bedroom with a PC...
> (EVERYBODY on this list should immediately go & download Burial Mix / Rhythm
> & Sound  tracks such as "Mango Drive", "King of My Empire", "Never tell you"
> etc etc...
> 

Where do I find these? A clue would be helpful to an "aesthetic" novice 
such as myself...

>....)
> 
> So fair enough, Burial takes this aesthetic, nails it onto a UK urban
> context (by syncopating his kickdrum & swinging his high hats 

I'm so glad you explained what makes "urban context "; but I thought a 
lot of music did that...

- fine by me,
> i LOVE 2 step garage) 

haven't heard of that before..never totally sure what plain "garage" is...

...
>..
> Most other "grime" & "dubstep" i've heard has been dissapointing.... 
> 

never heard of those either...

And I realise I am ~never~ going to reach a stage where I can write such 
a deeply felt piece about all this music and all of its strange 
descriptive idioms, adjectives and personnel! It all seems dependent not 
on describing the sounds themselves, but on whose music they are like, 
what culture, context or 'aesthetic" they belong to, even what part of 
the house (?) they are made in. I will have to consult a "cool" friend 
of mine who can tell me exactly what all this means and whether I should 
admit to liking it or not...


But I ~did~ rather like the album from what I heard of it. Does it 
actually exist as a real plastic CD? If the music is "obvious", that may 
be to my advantage!

:-)

Richard Dobson

>>doesn't help - sadly, I have never heard of these, not even sure if they 
>>are people or names of labels...

Yup you wouldn't be the first. for many years nobody did. no one knows who
Burial is either....

>>I so wish this description connected with anything I know about. "noise 
>>floor" music is a new label for me, heavy or otherwise ...

when "tape hiss" is elevated to the same status of the music itself
basically...(esp when worked & detailed & processed as you would the
"music"....) the "lineage" is basically seen to stretch from Lee Perry to
Berlin in the early 90's & now it's global (like everything - mainly thanks
to nerds & the internet...)

>>I'm so glad you explained what makes "urban context "; but I thought a 
>>lot of music did that...

if i make a gross generalisation - american dance music tends to be "4 on
the floor", while UK dance music tends to be more about syncopation & swing.
a gross generalisation, but as reasonable a starting point as any i would
have thought.

>> haven't heard of that before..never totally sure what plain "garage"
>> is...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_garage (selected at random...)

...
>..
> Most other "grime" & "dubstep" i've heard has been dissapointing.... 
> 

try wiki / google

>>It all seems dependent not 
>>on describing the sounds themselves, but on whose music they are like, 
>>what culture, context or 'aesthetic" they belong to, even what part of 
>>the house (?) they are made in. I will have to consult a "cool" friend 
>>of mine who can tell me exactly what all this means and whether I should 
>>admit to liking it or not...

I wouldn't let any ideas of coolness stand in the way of all this. Most of
these guys are probably anonymous because theyre fat, bald, & boring... ; )
(& at 50 kilos / 8 stone that makes me 2 out of 3 anyway...)


>>If the music is "obvious", that may 
>>be to my advantage!

It works for me & britney!


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View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/-OT--Burial-tp14769488p14784281.html
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Perfect Richard! Thank You!


Mark

> And I realise I am ~never~ going to reach a stage where I can write such 
> a deeply felt piece about all this music and all of its strange 
> descriptive idioms, adjectives and personnel! It all seems dependent not 
> on describing the sounds themselves, but on whose music they are like, 
> what culture, context or 'aesthetic" they belong to, even what part of 
> the house (?) they are made in. I will have to consult a "cool" friend 
> of mine who can tell me exactly what all this means and whether I should 
> admit to liking it or not...
> 
> 
> But I ~did~ rather like the album from what I heard of it. Does it 
> actually exist as a real plastic CD? If the music is "obvious", that may 
> be to my advantage!
> 
> :-)
> 
> Richard Dobson