adsyn is perfectly capable of synthesizing things like bells, pennies shaken in cups, etc. I know because I have done it. But to get it to work you have to use LOTS of breakpoint envelopes (partials).

I am confident that pvs opcodes could do as well, or better.

Either way it is NOT complex.

Regards,
Mike

-----Original Message-----
>From: Anthony Kozar 
>Sent: Jan 24, 2008 1:21 PM
>To: "csound@lists.bath.ac.uk" 
>Subject: [Csnd] Re:  The 'big picture' of Tim M's question--was: 'phase-synced crossfading, etc.'
>
>aaron@akjmusic.com wrote on 1/23/08 11:17 AM:
>
>> so anything we  can do in CSound (or the like) to achieve anything
>> remotely close is  going to:
>> 
>> 1) involve samples, and/or:
>> 2) involve resynthesis, and/or:
>> 3) involve lots of work and a complex setup.
>
>Hmmm ... not sure that I agree with this list ... see below.
>
>> The ultimate example of complexity--a bow driving a string. Or
>> something I thought about today as my daughter was playing in my
>> nightstand--a wooden cup with a lid filled with pennies that she likes
>> to shake. Just imagine synthesizing *that* with an adsyn bank...
>
>I think that adsyn would certainly be the wrong tool for this task.  See
>instead the PhISM opcodes based on techniques developed by Perry Cook.
>(bamboo, crunch, shaker, sleighbells, etc.)
>
>> My current interest--and please chime in, any gurus who know the
>> secrets!--is to recreate dynamically evolving instruments, using
>> samples, but showing no looping artifacts. [...]
>> But there's the rub--in 'hiding'
>> the loop artifacts by overlaps, I got an unrealistic, unwanted
>> (although attractive in it's own right) chorusing effect, and my
>> question of how to realistic reproduce a *single* instrument sound
>> that dynamically changes while having no artifacts of looping remains
>> an open one.
>
>These are generally considered inherent limitations in sample-playback
>techniques -- and became the impetus for much research in physical modeling
>instead.  Acoustic instruments ARE very complex as you pointed out and no
>sample-looping, additive synthesis, or other analysis-resynthesis techniques
>can compensate for the fact that a sample is just one static snapshot of how
>an instrument responded to one set of "input parameters."  The attack is
>typically full of all kinds of transients that you do not want to
>pitch-shift or time-stretch.  And these transients vary greatly depending on
>articulation.  The "steady-state tone" of a real instrument is usually
>anything but a steady harmonic spectrum.
>
>Have you tried any of the Csound physical models that are floating around
>out there?
>
>> if the manual's demo .csd files are an illustration of their greatest
>> power, I remain disappointed.
>
>I would instead assume that the manual examples illustrate the least power
>of an opcode.  They are typically designed for maximum clarity and show the
>simplest, functional manner of using an opcode .
> 
>> One obvious way to do achieve my goal of realism is to multisample the
>> hell out of the instrument, and have *no* looping, but just 'diskin' a
>> sustained sound for every sample.... (This is the 'mellotron'
>> approach ...)
>
>I love mellotrons, but a mellotron flute always plays 'G' with exactly the
>same nuances.  Again, samples are probably not the ultimate solution for
>"dynamic realism".
>
>I don't typically try to imitate acoustic instruments with Csound (or
>conventional keyboard synthesizers for that matter).  I am more interested
>in synthesizing unique sounds, so I cannot really help with any Csound
>examples of realistic imitations.  The Horner/Ayers book and the work of
>Perry Cook is where I would start my research if I wanted to imitate
>acoustic instruments.
> 
>Anthony Kozar
>mailing-lists-1001 AT anthonykozar DOT net
>http://anthonykozar.net/
>
>
>
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