The biggest selling point for me, and one that I throw at my students
all the time is Csound doesn't suffer from the same limitations and
restrictions that most commercial software synths and effects suffer
from. It's easy to demonstrate. Simply open a DAW, pull down an effect
and explore the limited possibilities it offers. Then build the effect
in Csound and explore the unlimited possibilities it offers.

For what it's worth I find the best way to keep students interested in
Csound is to show them how to integrate it into other systems. In one
of my undergraduate modules that deals with sound manipulation we've
used csLADSPA to build effects for audacity. Although the students are
writing Csound instruments, they get to use a familiar DAW interface
to control them. I've started using Cabbage with a group of students
just this year. We're only a few classes in but they love the fact
they can use Csound in Live/Cubase/Fruity Loops etc. While it may be
perfectly normal for users on this list to write entire pieces using
nothing but Csound and a text editor, I don't think the majority of
students find it normal at all, and why would they? They grew up using
GUIs for everything.

They thought I was mad when I first explained how I write music using
nothing but Csound.

They still think I'm mad.

Rory.

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The biggest selling point for me, and one that I throw at my students
all the time is Csound doesn't suffer from the same limitations and
restrictions that most commercial software synths and effects suffer
from. It's easy to demonstrate. Simply open a DAW, pull down an effect
and explore the limited possibilities it offers. Then build the effect
in Csound and explore the unlimited possibilities it offers.

For what it's worth I find the best way to keep students interested in
Csound is to show them how to integrate it into other systems. In one
of my undergraduate modules that deals with sound manipulation we've
used csLADSPA to build effects for audacity. Although the students are
writing Csound instruments, they get to use a familiar DAW interface
to control them. I've started using Cabbage with a group of students
just this year. We're only a few classes in but they love the fact
they can use Csound in Live/Cubase/Fruity Loops etc. While it may be
perfectly normal for users on this list to write entire pieces using
nothing but Csound and a text editor, I don't think the majority of
students find it normal at all, and why would they? They grew up using
GUIs for everything.

They thought I was mad when I first explained how I write music using
nothing but Csound.

They still think I'm mad.

Rory.


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Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
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Apologies, I thought I was sending that mail to Peiman off-list, if I
had known it was going to the whole list I would have censored the
language!

Rory.

On 9 February 2012 16:37, Rory Walsh <rorywalsh@ear.ie> wrote:
> I eat pressure and shit results! Didn't you know!?! I have sorted the
> problem with the plugin ID conflicts. We're tipping ever closer to a
> first OSX release. You'll be getting your copy before anyone else!
>
>
>
> On 9 February 2012 16:33, peiman khosravi <peimankhosravi@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Rory, I need Cabbage on OSX for a module I'm teaching in September! If it's
>> not there all my teaching plans are ruined!! No pressure :-)
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Peiman
>>
>> On 9 February 2012 16:27, Rory Walsh <rorywalsh@ear.ie> wrote:
>>>
>>> The biggest selling point for me, and one that I throw at my students
>>> all the time is Csound doesn't suffer from the same limitations and
>>> restrictions that most commercial software synths and effects suffer
>>> from. It's easy to demonstrate. Simply open a DAW, pull down an effect
>>> and explore the limited possibilities it offers. Then build the effect
>>> in Csound and explore the unlimited possibilities it offers.
>>>
>>> For what it's worth I find the best way to keep students interested in
>>> Csound is to show them how to integrate it into other systems. In one
>>> of my undergraduate modules that deals with sound manipulation we've
>>> used csLADSPA to build effects for audacity. Although the students are
>>> writing Csound instruments, they get to use a familiar DAW interface
>>> to control them. I've started using Cabbage with a group of students
>>> just this year. We're only a few classes in but they love the fact
>>> they can use Csound in Live/Cubase/Fruity Loops etc. While it may be
>>> perfectly normal for users on this list to write entire pieces using
>>> nothing but Csound and a text editor, I don't think the majority of
>>> students find it normal at all, and why would they? They grew up using
>>> GUIs for everything.
>>>
>>> They thought I was mad when I first explained how I write music using
>>> nothing but Csound.
>>>
>>> They still think I'm mad.
>>>
>>> Rory.
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>>            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>>> csound"
>>>
>>


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I eat pressure and shit results! Didn't you know!?! I have sorted the
problem with the plugin ID conflicts. We're tipping ever closer to a
first OSX release. You'll be getting your copy before anyone else!



On 9 February 2012 16:33, peiman khosravi <peimankhosravi@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rory, I need Cabbage on OSX for a module I'm teaching in September! If it's
> not there all my teaching plans are ruined!! No pressure :-)
>
> Best,
>
> Peiman
>
> On 9 February 2012 16:27, Rory Walsh <rorywalsh@ear.ie> wrote:
>>
>> The biggest selling point for me, and one that I throw at my students
>> all the time is Csound doesn't suffer from the same limitations and
>> restrictions that most commercial software synths and effects suffer
>> from. It's easy to demonstrate. Simply open a DAW, pull down an effect
>> and explore the limited possibilities it offers. Then build the effect
>> in Csound and explore the unlimited possibilities it offers.
>>
>> For what it's worth I find the best way to keep students interested in
>> Csound is to show them how to integrate it into other systems. In one
>> of my undergraduate modules that deals with sound manipulation we've
>> used csLADSPA to build effects for audacity. Although the students are
>> writing Csound instruments, they get to use a familiar DAW interface
>> to control them. I've started using Cabbage with a group of students
>> just this year. We're only a few classes in but they love the fact
>> they can use Csound in Live/Cubase/Fruity Loops etc. While it may be
>> perfectly normal for users on this list to write entire pieces using
>> nothing but Csound and a text editor, I don't think the majority of
>> students find it normal at all, and why would they? They grew up using
>> GUIs for everything.
>>
>> They thought I was mad when I first explained how I write music using
>> nothing but Csound.
>>
>> They still think I'm mad.
>>
>> Rory.
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>


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the degree to which "you" actually use and love Csound is the "real" selling point.

___________________________________

Dr. Richard Boulanger, Ph.D.

Professor of Electronic Production and Design

Professional Writing and Music Technology Division

Berklee College of Music

1140 Boylston Street

Boston, MA 02215-3693

617-747-2485 (office)

774-488-9166 (cell)

rboulanger@berklee.edu

http://csounds.com/boulanger

____________________________________

http://csounds.com

http://csoundforlive.com

____________________________________

http://csounds.com/mathews

____________________________________

On Feb 9, 2012, at 10:59 AM, Michael Gogins wrote:

My "selling point" is that head to head it often sounds better. And
there are plenty of free Csound instruments to scarf up.

Regards,
Mike

On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Pat Pagano <bigswift@ufl.edu> wrote:

1.)    Cecilia.---It gets my audio design students interested for years now

Also FLT RT INSTRS like 2.) Improsculpt are crowning achievements of Csound

IMHO.

I used to do a ton of Just Intonation particular systems with csound, that

was great and eye opening in 95/96

pp

From: Bernt Isak Wærstad [mailto:berntisak@gmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 9:31 AM

To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk

Subject: [Csnd] How to motivate students starting with Csound

Hello list!

We discussed motivating students starting with Csound a bit on the

conference and I would like to pick up that thread now since I'm starting

teaching Csound to new students in a couple of weeks. I addition to giving

them examples of different instruments and effects and playing pieces I

though I would give them sort of a list of "selling points" for using Csound

so I thought it might be a good idea to hear what you guys think. And with

"selling points" I don't necessarily think of what you love most of Csound,

but what you think would be the best way to "sell" Csound to a bunch of

somewhat skeptical students. The fact that it's open source and free is

great, but might not matter to much to a guy who doesn't even have a

remotely idea of what Csound is capable of. Hopefully this list could be of

use all of us teaching Csound.

--

Mvh.

Bernt Isak Wærstad

--
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

On 10/02/2012, at 8:09 AM, peiman khosravi wrote:

I personally use both and find max easier for certain things but I'm always surprised to see that students find Csound so much easier and immediate to 'get' compared with maxmsp. Maybe that's reflection on my teaching rather than the programmes themselves though.

In my experience, those who are primarily visual thinkers find the GUI/spatial layout approach of Max/PD easier that CSound (and SC). 

Not always true, but this applies to Art-school sound classees. 

Many composers who write scores find the code approach easier. (same caveat).

Individuals have different mixtures of these perceptual biasses.

Personally I can't think beyond a certain 'depth' with the visual/black-bo approach, whereas I can dream code - and many of my students report likewise.

And then there is the thorny issue of the sound of the thing. I'm biassed but I recon the sound of Max/PD is 'dirtier' than CS and SC. I've never bothered to empirically test this prejudice. Life's too short...

David

Currently my approach is to give a bunch of samples to students to process and mix (to the point of losing their original identities) only in protools and using only the simple native tools/plug-ins. Once they aurally acquire a taste of how different sounds react to different (and basic) digital transformations (e.g. they can use a delay+feedback plug-in more imaginatively to create resonant filtering) Cecilia is introduced to show them more complex processes. Next year I'm hoping to introduce ready-made cabbage plug-ins in a wave-editor (instead of protools) to begin with and gradually encourage them to start modifying the CSDs to suit their specific needs. I think/hope this will wet their appetite to delve more deeply into Csound and start using it creatively. 

Best,

Peiman
 

On 9 February 2012 20:05, Dr. Richard Boulanger <rboulanger@berklee.edu> wrote:

the degree to which "you" actually use and love Csound is the "real" selling point.

___________________________________

Dr. Richard Boulanger, Ph.D.

Professor of Electronic Production and Design

Professional Writing and Music Technology Division

Berklee College of Music

1140 Boylston Street

Boston, MA 02215-3693

617-747-2485 (office)

774-488-9166 (cell)

rboulanger@berklee.edu

http://csounds.com/boulanger

____________________________________

http://csounds.com

http://csoundforlive.com

____________________________________

http://csounds.com/mathews

____________________________________

On Feb 9, 2012, at 10:59 AM, Michael Gogins wrote:

My "selling point" is that head to head it often sounds better. And
there are plenty of free Csound instruments to scarf up.

Regards,
Mike

On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Pat Pagano <bigswift@ufl.edu> wrote:

1.)    Cecilia.---It gets my audio design students interested for years now

Also FLT RT INSTRS like 2.) Improsculpt are crowning achievements of Csound

IMHO.

I used to do a ton of Just Intonation particular systems with csound, that

was great and eye opening in 95/96

pp

From: Bernt Isak Wærstad [mailto:berntisak@gmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 9:31 AM

To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk

Subject: [Csnd] How to motivate students starting with Csound

Hello list!

We discussed motivating students starting with Csound a bit on the

conference and I would like to pick up that thread now since I'm starting

teaching Csound to new students in a couple of weeks. I addition to giving

them examples of different instruments and effects and playing pieces I

though I would give them sort of a list of "selling points" for using Csound

so I thought it might be a good idea to hear what you guys think. And with

"selling points" I don't necessarily think of what you love most of Csound,

but what you think would be the best way to "sell" Csound to a bunch of

somewhat skeptical students. The fact that it's open source and free is

great, but might not matter to much to a guy who doesn't even have a

remotely idea of what Csound is capable of. Hopefully this list could be of

use all of us teaching Csound.

--

Mvh.

Bernt Isak Wærstad

--
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

_____________________________________________

Dr David Worrall

Experimental Composer, Polymedia

Adjunct Research Fellow, Australian National University

David.Worrall@anu.edu.au

Board Member, International Community for Auditory Display

Regional Editor, Organised Sound (CUP) 

IT Projects, Music Council of Australia 

worrall.avatar.com.au sonification.com.au

On 10/02/2012, at 8:09 AM, peiman khosravi wrote:

I personally use both and find max easier for certain things but I'm always surprised to see that students find Csound so much easier and immediate to 'get' compared with maxmsp. Maybe that's reflection on my teaching rather than the programmes themselves though.

In my experience, those who are primarily visual thinkers find the GUI/spatial layout approach of Max/PD easier that CSound (and SC). 

Not always true, but this applies to Art-school sound classees. 

Many composers who write scores find the code approach easier. (same caveat).

Individuals have different mixtures of these perceptual biasses.

Personally I can't think beyond a certain 'depth' with the visual/black-bo approach, whereas I can dream code - and many of my students report likewise.

And then there is the thorny issue of the sound of the thing. I'm biassed but I recon the sound of Max/PD is 'dirtier' than CS and SC. I've never bothered to empirically test this prejudice. Life's too short...

David

Currently my approach is to give a bunch of samples to students to process and mix (to the point of losing their original identities) only in protools and using only the simple native tools/plug-ins. Once they aurally acquire a taste of how different sounds react to different (and basic) digital transformations (e.g. they can use a delay+feedback plug-in more imaginatively to create resonant filtering) Cecilia is introduced to show them more complex processes. Next year I'm hoping to introduce ready-made cabbage plug-ins in a wave-editor (instead of protools) to begin with and gradually encourage them to start modifying the CSDs to suit their specific needs. I think/hope this will wet their appetite to delve more deeply into Csound and start using it creatively. 

Best,

Peiman
 

On 9 February 2012 20:05, Dr. Richard Boulanger <rboulanger@berklee.edu> wrote:

the degree to which "you" actually use and love Csound is the "real" selling point.

___________________________________

Dr. Richard Boulanger, Ph.D.

Professor of Electronic Production and Design

Professional Writing and Music Technology Division

Berklee College of Music

1140 Boylston Street

Boston, MA 02215-3693

617-747-2485 (office)

774-488-9166 (cell)

rboulanger@berklee.edu

http://csounds.com/boulanger

____________________________________

http://csounds.com

http://csoundforlive.com

____________________________________

http://csounds.com/mathews

____________________________________

On Feb 9, 2012, at 10:59 AM, Michael Gogins wrote:

My "selling point" is that head to head it often sounds better. And
there are plenty of free Csound instruments to scarf up.

Regards,
Mike

On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Pat Pagano <bigswift@ufl.edu> wrote:

1.)    Cecilia.---It gets my audio design students interested for years now

Also FLT RT INSTRS like 2.) Improsculpt are crowning achievements of Csound

IMHO.

I used to do a ton of Just Intonation particular systems with csound, that

was great and eye opening in 95/96

pp

From: Bernt Isak Wærstad [mailto:berntisak@gmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 9:31 AM

To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk

Subject: [Csnd] How to motivate students starting with Csound

Hello list!

We discussed motivating students starting with Csound a bit on the

conference and I would like to pick up that thread now since I'm starting

teaching Csound to new students in a couple of weeks. I addition to giving

them examples of different instruments and effects and playing pieces I

though I would give them sort of a list of "selling points" for using Csound

so I thought it might be a good idea to hear what you guys think. And with

"selling points" I don't necessarily think of what you love most of Csound,

but what you think would be the best way to "sell" Csound to a bunch of

somewhat skeptical students. The fact that it's open source and free is

great, but might not matter to much to a guy who doesn't even have a

remotely idea of what Csound is capable of. Hopefully this list could be of

use all of us teaching Csound.

--

Mvh.

Bernt Isak Wærstad

--
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

_____________________________________________

Dr David Worrall

Experimental Composer, Polymedia

Adjunct Research Fellow, Australian National University

David.Worrall@anu.edu.au

Board Member, International Community for Auditory Display

Regional Editor, Organised Sound (CUP) 

IT Projects, Music Council of Australia 

worrall.avatar.com.au sonification.com.au

Whoa, good response! A lot of nice inputs here!

As I mentioned I'm already planning on showing them inspiring examples - both pieces (and thanks to John I now have a whole lot more to play - thanks John!) and demonstration of instruments and different "patching" solutions (Hadron, Csound for Live, Cabbage, blue, python with csound, csound~ etc.). I agree with what several of you are stating that combining Csound with familiar GUI is a nice way to ease the pain for those who never seen written code in their lives. Sigurd Saue, who works here at NTNU, has a "CsoundPlugin" which is sort of a Cabbage lite. The nice thing about this plugin is that is a bit easier to get started with even though is very limited compared to Cabbage. It has a automatic GUI generator so it's just for the students to add chn channels in their csd's and voila! - GUI controls pop up. I would of course encourage them to go on to Cabbage if they want more customization and GUI control, but I think the whole Cabbage package could be a bit much to take in for someone who's already struggling with getting Csound to make a bip. Sigurd used this plugin teaching the same course last year and had a very good response from the students after introducing this plugin.

Anyways, what I was thinking of originally with this post was to have a short on concise list of arguments for using Csound so it would be possible to say in a short, precise and persuasive manner why students should bother with Csound (aside from the fact that they have to if the want to pass the exam :) And just to make it clear: I'm not meaning to measure it against other alternatives like Max/MSP (we teach Max too in the same course), but it would be appropriate to list what you can't do with commercial/traditional DAWs and plugins. I guess it's more about "why bother with programming when there's so many great synths and effects available?" - which language you choose is another discussion :)

I'll try to compile a list over the weekend based on the inputs from this thread and post it back here to get your opinions again. 

On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 12:45 PM, J Clements <jclements77@gmail.com> wrote:

Regardless of the sound (and cost) of Max/Max for Live, it was really helpful for me as a student of Csound to use these as a way to instantly control Csound and make GUIs that bring the beautiful sound of Csound into the paradigm of the DAW and live MIDI performance that I began with as a younger user of music technology. 

John

On Feb 10, 2012 2:22 AM, "DavidW" <vip@avatar.com.au> wrote:

On 10/02/2012, at 8:09 AM, peiman khosravi wrote:

I personally use both and find max easier for certain things but I'm always surprised to see that students find Csound so much easier and immediate to 'get' compared with maxmsp. Maybe that's reflection on my teaching rather than the programmes themselves though.

In my experience, those who are primarily visual thinkers find the GUI/spatial layout approach of Max/PD easier that CSound (and SC). 

Not always true, but this applies to Art-school sound classees. 

Many composers who write scores find the code approach easier. (same caveat).

Individuals have different mixtures of these perceptual biasses.

Personally I can't think beyond a certain 'depth' with the visual/black-bo approach, whereas I can dream code - and many of my students report likewise.

And then there is the thorny issue of the sound of the thing. I'm biassed but I recon the sound of Max/PD is 'dirtier' than CS and SC. I've never bothered to empirically test this prejudice. Life's too short...

David

Currently my approach is to give a bunch of samples to students to process and mix (to the point of losing their original identities) only in protools and using only the simple native tools/plug-ins. Once they aurally acquire a taste of how different sounds react to different (and basic) digital transformations (e.g. they can use a delay+feedback plug-in more imaginatively to create resonant filtering) Cecilia is introduced to show them more complex processes. Next year I'm hoping to introduce ready-made cabbage plug-ins in a wave-editor (instead of protools) to begin with and gradually encourage them to start modifying the CSDs to suit their specific needs. I think/hope this will wet their appetite to delve more deeply into Csound and start using it creatively. 

Best,

Peiman
 

On 9 February 2012 20:05, Dr. Richard Boulanger <rboulanger@berklee.edu> wrote:

the degree to which "you" actually use and love Csound is the "real" selling point.

___________________________________

Dr. Richard Boulanger, Ph.D.

Professor of Electronic Production and Design

Professional Writing and Music Technology Division

Berklee College of Music

1140 Boylston Street

Boston, MA 02215-3693

617-747-2485 (office)

774-488-9166 (cell)

rboulanger@berklee.edu

http://csounds.com/boulanger

____________________________________

http://csounds.com

http://csoundforlive.com

____________________________________

http://csounds.com/mathews

____________________________________

On Feb 9, 2012, at 10:59 AM, Michael Gogins wrote:

My "selling point" is that head to head it often sounds better. And
there are plenty of free Csound instruments to scarf up.

Regards,
Mike

On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Pat Pagano <bigswift@ufl.edu> wrote:

1.)    Cecilia.---It gets my audio design students interested for years now

Also FLT RT INSTRS like 2.) Improsculpt are crowning achievements of Csound

IMHO.

I used to do a ton of Just Intonation particular systems with csound, that

was great and eye opening in 95/96

pp

From: Bernt Isak Wærstad [mailto:berntisak@gmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 9:31 AM

To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk

Subject: [Csnd] How to motivate students starting with Csound

Hello list!

We discussed motivating students starting with Csound a bit on the

conference and I would like to pick up that thread now since I'm starting

teaching Csound to new students in a couple of weeks. I addition to giving

them examples of different instruments and effects and playing pieces I

though I would give them sort of a list of "selling points" for using Csound

so I thought it might be a good idea to hear what you guys think. And with

"selling points" I don't necessarily think of what you love most of Csound,

but what you think would be the best way to "sell" Csound to a bunch of

somewhat skeptical students. The fact that it's open source and free is

great, but might not matter to much to a guy who doesn't even have a

remotely idea of what Csound is capable of. Hopefully this list could be of

use all of us teaching Csound.

--

Mvh.

Bernt Isak Wærstad

--
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

_____________________________________________

Dr David Worrall

Experimental Composer, Polymedia

Adjunct Research Fellow, Australian National University

David.Worrall@anu.edu.au

Board Member, International Community for Auditory Display

Regional Editor, Organised Sound (CUP) 

IT Projects, Music Council of Australia 

worrall.avatar.com.au sonification.com.au

--
Mvh.

Bernt Isak Wærstad

I could send it to you to try out. What platform are you working on? At least on OSX it seems to be picky on versions.

 

Sigurd

 

From: peiman khosravi [mailto:peimankhosravi@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 2:54 PM
To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
Subject: Re: [Csnd] How to motivate students starting with Csound

 

Is the plug-in by Sigurd available to try? I'd love to have a look!

OK here's my list:

1- Sound quality. The deep control that Csound offers means that one can sacrifice efficiency at the gain of quality if nessesary, and of course the fact that Csound can easily run in non-real-time helps too. Frequency domain opcodes in Csound sound far superior or equal to anything else I've tried, with the exception of some processes (transient preservation) in audio sculpt and and possibly iZotope's noise reduction suite both of which are costly for what they are.

2- It is perfect for teaching because it encourages students form the start to understand the processes. It has a good mix of ready-made opcodes for quick, high quality and easy access to complex synthesis/processing techniques as well as the ground to do more low level programming.

3- The availability of historical examples like those of Risset's.

4- User/developer community should really be on top of the list both in terms of approachability and diversity.

5- The endorsement of integration of more commercial and/or GUI-based systems thanks to the API and developers.

6- Availability of literature such as the great Csound book.

7- In this climate students should really be made familiar with a musical programming language and csound is just as good as any other.

I'm sure there are more but I can't think of them right now!

Best,

Peiman

On 10 February 2012 12:58, Bernt Isak Wærstad <berntisak@gmail.com> wrote:

Whoa, good response! A lot of nice inputs here!

 

As I mentioned I'm already planning on showing them inspiring examples - both pieces (and thanks to John I now have a whole lot more to play - thanks John!) and demonstration of instruments and different "patching" solutions (Hadron, Csound for Live, Cabbage, blue, python with csound, csound~ etc.). I agree with what several of you are stating that combining Csound with familiar GUI is a nice way to ease the pain for those who never seen written code in their lives. Sigurd Saue, who works here at NTNU, has a "CsoundPlugin" which is sort of a Cabbage lite. The nice thing about this plugin is that is a bit easier to get started with even though is very limited compared to Cabbage. It has a automatic GUI generator so it's just for the students to add chn channels in their csd's and voila! - GUI controls pop up. I would of course encourage them to go on to Cabbage if they want more customization and GUI control, but I think the whole Cabbage package could be a bit much to take in for someone who's already struggling with getting Csound to make a bip. Sigurd used this plugin teaching the same course last year and had a very good response from the students after introducing this plugin.

 

Anyways, what I was thinking of originally with this post was to have a short on concise list of arguments for using Csound so it would be possible to say in a short, precise and persuasive manner why students should bother with Csound (aside from the fact that they have to if the want to pass the exam :) And just to make it clear: I'm not meaning to measure it against other alternatives like Max/MSP (we teach Max too in the same course), but it would be appropriate to list what you can't do with commercial/traditional DAWs and plugins. I guess it's more about "why bother with programming when there's so many great synths and effects available?" - which language you choose is another discussion :)

 

I'll try to compile a list over the weekend based on the inputs from this thread and post it back here to get your opinions again. 

 

 

On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 12:45 PM, J Clements <jclements77@gmail.com> wrote:

Regardless of the sound (and cost) of Max/Max for Live, it was really helpful for me as a student of Csound to use these as a way to instantly control Csound and make GUIs that bring the beautiful sound of Csound into the paradigm of the DAW and live MIDI performance that I began with as a younger user of music technology. 

John

On Feb 10, 2012 2:22 AM, "DavidW" <vip@avatar.com.au> wrote:

 

On 10/02/2012, at 8:09 AM, peiman khosravi wrote:

I personally use both and find max easier for certain things but I'm always surprised to see that students find Csound so much easier and immediate to 'get' compared with maxmsp. Maybe that's reflection on my teaching rather than the programmes themselves though.

In my experience, those who are primarily visual thinkers find the GUI/spatial layout approach of Max/PD easier that CSound (and SC). 

Not always true, but this applies to Art-school sound classees. 

Many composers who write scores find the code approach easier. (same caveat).

 

Individuals have different mixtures of these perceptual biasses.

Personally I can't think beyond a certain 'depth' with the visual/black-bo approach, whereas I can dream code - and many of my students report likewise.

 

And then there is the thorny issue of the sound of the thing. I'm biassed but I recon the sound of Max/PD is 'dirtier' than CS and SC. I've never bothered to empirically test this prejudice. Life's too short...

 

David

 

Currently my approach is to give a bunch of samples to students to process and mix (to the point of losing their original identities) only in protools and using only the simple native tools/plug-ins. Once they aurally acquire a taste of how different sounds react to different (and basic) digital transformations (e.g. they can use a delay+feedback plug-in more imaginatively to create resonant filtering) Cecilia is introduced to show them more complex processes. Next year I'm hoping to introduce ready-made cabbage plug-ins in a wave-editor (instead of protools) to begin with and gradually encourage them to start modifying the CSDs to suit their specific needs. I think/hope this will wet their appetite to delve more deeply into Csound and start using it creatively. 

Best,

Peiman
 

On 9 February 2012 20:05, Dr. Richard Boulanger <rboulanger@berklee.edu> wrote:

the degree to which "you" actually use and love Csound is the "real" selling point.

___________________________________

 

Dr. Richard Boulanger, Ph.D.

 

Professor of Electronic Production and Design

Professional Writing and Music Technology Division

Berklee College of Music

1140 Boylston Street

Boston, MA 02215-3693

 

617-747-2485 (office)

774-488-9166 (cell)

 

rboulanger@berklee.edu

http://csounds.com/boulanger

____________________________________

 

http://csounds.com

http://csoundforlive.com

____________________________________

 

http://csounds.com/mathews

____________________________________

 

On Feb 9, 2012, at 10:59 AM, Michael Gogins wrote:

My "selling point" is that head to head it often sounds better. And
there are plenty of free Csound instruments to scarf up.

Regards,
Mike

On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Pat Pagano <bigswift@ufl.edu> wrote:

1.)    Cecilia.---It gets my audio design students interested for years now

 

Also FLT RT INSTRS like 2.) Improsculpt are crowning achievements of Csound

IMHO.

 

I used to do a ton of Just Intonation particular systems with csound, that

was great and eye opening in 95/96

 

 

 

 

 

pp

 

 

 

From: Bernt Isak Wærstad [mailto:berntisak@gmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 9:31 AM

To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk

Subject: [Csnd] How to motivate students starting with Csound

 

 

 

Hello list!

 

 

 

We discussed motivating students starting with Csound a bit on the

conference and I would like to pick up that thread now since I'm starting

teaching Csound to new students in a couple of weeks. I addition to giving

them examples of different instruments and effects and playing pieces I

though I would give them sort of a list of "selling points" for using Csound

so I thought it might be a good idea to hear what you guys think. And with

"selling points" I don't necessarily think of what you love most of Csound,

but what you think would be the best way to "sell" Csound to a bunch of

somewhat skeptical students. The fact that it's open source and free is

great, but might not matter to much to a guy who doesn't even have a

remotely idea of what Csound is capable of. Hopefully this list could be of

use all of us teaching Csound.

 

 

 

 

 

--

Mvh.

 

 

Bernt Isak Wærstad

 

 

--
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

 

 

 

_____________________________________________

Dr David Worrall

Experimental Composer, Polymedia

Adjunct Research Fellow, Australian National University

David.Worrall@anu.edu.au

Board Member, International Community for Auditory Display

Regional Editor, Organised Sound (CUP) 

IT Projects, Music Council of Australia 

worrall.avatar.com.au sonification.com.au

 

 

 

 

--
Mvh.

Bernt Isak Wærstad

 

 

What you can't do with other systems:

Embed Python or Lua code in running orchestras.

Use Victor Lazzarini's cool streaming phase vocoder opcodes - a whole
time/frequency toolkit.

Do matrix and vector algebra in your orchestras.

Scarf up hundreds or thousands of example pieces, orchestras, instruments...

Write your own applications with Csound as the synthesizer "engine"
(actually you can do this with PD or RTcmix but it is easier with
Csound).

Regards,
Mike



On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 7:58 AM, Bernt Isak Wærstad <berntisak@gmail.com> wrote:
> Whoa, good response! A lot of nice inputs here!
>
> As I mentioned I'm already planning on showing them inspiring examples -
> both pieces (and thanks to John I now have a whole lot more to play - thanks
> John!) and demonstration of instruments and different "patching" solutions
> (Hadron, Csound for Live, Cabbage, blue, python with csound, csound~ etc.).
> I agree with what several of you are stating that combining Csound with
> familiar GUI is a nice way to ease the pain for those who never seen written
> code in their lives. Sigurd Saue, who works here at NTNU, has a
> "CsoundPlugin" which is sort of a Cabbage lite. The nice thing about this
> plugin is that is a bit easier to get started with even though is very
> limited compared to Cabbage. It has a automatic GUI generator so it's just
> for the students to add chn channels in their csd's and voila! - GUI
> controls pop up. I would of course encourage them to go on to Cabbage if
> they want more customization and GUI control, but I think the whole Cabbage
> package could be a bit much to take in for someone who's already struggling
> with getting Csound to make a bip. Sigurd used this plugin teaching the same
> course last year and had a very good response from the students after
> introducing this plugin.
>
> Anyways, what I was thinking of originally with this post was to have a
> short on concise list of arguments for using Csound so it would be possible
> to say in a short, precise and persuasive manner why students should bother
> with Csound (aside from the fact that they have to if the want to pass the
> exam :) And just to make it clear: I'm not meaning to measure it against
> other alternatives like Max/MSP (we teach Max too in the same course), but
> it would be appropriate to list what you can't do with
> commercial/traditional DAWs and plugins. I guess it's more about "why bother
> with programming when there's so many great synths and effects available?" -
> which language you choose is another discussion :)
>
> I'll try to compile a list over the weekend based on the inputs from this
> thread and post it back here to get your opinions again.
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 12:45 PM, J Clements <jclements77@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Regardless of the sound (and cost) of Max/Max for Live, it was really
>> helpful for me as a student of Csound to use these as a way to instantly
>> control Csound and make GUIs that bring the beautiful sound of Csound into
>> the paradigm of the DAW and live MIDI performance that I began with as a
>> younger user of music technology.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Feb 10, 2012 2:22 AM, "DavidW" <vip@avatar.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/02/2012, at 8:09 AM, peiman khosravi wrote:
>>>
>>> I personally use both and find max easier for certain things but I'm
>>> always surprised to see that students find Csound so much easier and
>>> immediate to 'get' compared with maxmsp. Maybe that's reflection on my
>>> teaching rather than the programmes themselves though.
>>>
>>> In my experience, those who are primarily visual thinkers find the
>>> GUI/spatial layout approach of Max/PD easier that CSound (and SC).
>>> Not always true, but this applies to Art-school sound classees.
>>> Many composers who write scores find the code approach easier. (same
>>> caveat).
>>>
>>> Individuals have different mixtures of these perceptual biasses.
>>> Personally I can't think beyond a certain 'depth' with the
>>> visual/black-bo approach, whereas I can dream code - and many of my students
>>> report likewise.
>>>
>>> And then there is the thorny issue of the sound of the thing. I'm biassed
>>> but I recon the sound of Max/PD is 'dirtier' than CS and SC. I've never
>>> bothered to empirically test this prejudice. Life's too short...
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>> Currently my approach is to give a bunch of samples to students to
>>> process and mix (to the point of losing their original identities) only in
>>> protools and using only the simple native tools/plug-ins. Once they aurally
>>> acquire a taste of how different sounds react to different (and basic)
>>> digital transformations (e.g. they can use a delay+feedback plug-in more
>>> imaginatively to create resonant filtering) Cecilia is introduced to show
>>> them more complex processes. Next year I'm hoping to introduce ready-made
>>> cabbage plug-ins in a wave-editor (instead of protools) to begin with and
>>> gradually encourage them to start modifying the CSDs to suit their specific
>>> needs. I think/hope this will wet their appetite to delve more deeply into
>>> Csound and start using it creatively.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Peiman
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9 February 2012 20:05, Dr. Richard Boulanger <rboulanger@berklee.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> the degree to which "you" actually use and love Csound is the "real"
>>>> selling point.
>>>> ___________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Dr. Richard Boulanger, Ph.D.
>>>>
>>>> Professor of Electronic Production and Design
>>>> Professional Writing and Music Technology Division
>>>> Berklee College of Music
>>>> 1140 Boylston Street
>>>> Boston, MA 02215-3693
>>>>
>>>> 617-747-2485 (office)
>>>> 774-488-9166 (cell)
>>>>
>>>> rboulanger@berklee.edu
>>>> http://csounds.com/boulanger
>>>> ____________________________________
>>>>
>>>> http://csounds.com
>>>> http://csoundforlive.com
>>>> ____________________________________
>>>>
>>>> http://csounds.com/mathews
>>>> ____________________________________
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 9, 2012, at 10:59 AM, Michael Gogins wrote:
>>>>
>>>> My "selling point" is that head to head it often sounds better. And
>>>> there are plenty of free Csound instruments to scarf up.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Pat Pagano <bigswift@ufl.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 1.)    Cecilia.---It gets my audio design students interested for years
>>>> now
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also FLT RT INSTRS like 2.) Improsculpt are crowning achievements of
>>>> Csound
>>>>
>>>> IMHO.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I used to do a ton of Just Intonation particular systems with csound,
>>>> that
>>>>
>>>> was great and eye opening in 95/96
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> pp
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Bernt Isak Wærstad [mailto:berntisak@gmail.com]
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 9:31 AM
>>>>
>>>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>>>
>>>> Subject: [Csnd] How to motivate students starting with Csound
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello list!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We discussed motivating students starting with Csound a bit on the
>>>>
>>>> conference and I would like to pick up that thread now since I'm
>>>> starting
>>>>
>>>> teaching Csound to new students in a couple of weeks. I addition to
>>>> giving
>>>>
>>>> them examples of different instruments and effects and playing pieces I
>>>>
>>>> though I would give them sort of a list of "selling points" for using
>>>> Csound
>>>>
>>>> so I thought it might be a good idea to hear what you guys think. And
>>>> with
>>>>
>>>> "selling points" I don't necessarily think of what you love most of
>>>> Csound,
>>>>
>>>> but what you think would be the best way to "sell" Csound to a bunch of
>>>>
>>>> somewhat skeptical students. The fact that it's open source and free is
>>>>
>>>> great, but might not matter to much to a guy who doesn't even have a
>>>>
>>>> remotely idea of what Csound is capable of. Hopefully this list could be
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>> use all of us teaching Csound.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Mvh.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bernt Isak Wærstad
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Michael Gogins
>>>> Irreducible Productions
>>>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>>>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>>>            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>>>> csound"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _____________________________________________
>>> Dr David Worrall
>>> Experimental Composer, Polymedia
>>> Adjunct Research Fellow, Australian National University
>>> David.Worrall@anu.edu.au
>>> Board Member, International Community for Auditory Display
>>> Regional Editor, Organised Sound (CUP)
>>> IT Projects, Music Council of Australia
>>> worrall.avatar.com.au sonification.com.au
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
> --
> Mvh.
>
> Bernt Isak Wærstad
>
>
>



--
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

Is the plug-in by Sigurd available to try? I'd love to have a look!

OK here's my list:

1- Sound quality. The deep control that Csound offers means that one can sacrifice efficiency at the gain of quality if nessesary, and of course the fact that Csound can easily run in non-real-time helps too. Frequency domain opcodes in Csound sound far superior or equal to anything else I've tried, with the exception of some processes (transient preservation) in audio sculpt and and possibly iZotope's noise reduction suite both of which are costly for what they are.

2- It is perfect for teaching because it encourages students form the start to understand the processes. It has a good mix of ready-made opcodes for quick, high quality and easy access to complex synthesis/processing techniques as well as the ground to do more low level programming.

3- The availability of historical examples like those of Risset's.

4- User/developer community should really be on top of the list both in terms of approachability and diversity.

5- The endorsement of integration of more commercial and/or GUI-based systems thanks to the API and developers.

6- Availability of literature such as the great Csound book.

7- In this climate students should really be made familiar with a musical programming language and csound is just as good as any other.

I'm sure there are more but I can't think of them right now!

Best,

Peiman

On 10 February 2012 12:58, Bernt Isak Wærstad <berntisak@gmail.com> wrote:

Whoa, good response! A lot of nice inputs here!

As I mentioned I'm already planning on showing them inspiring examples - both pieces (and thanks to John I now have a whole lot more to play - thanks John!) and demonstration of instruments and different "patching" solutions (Hadron, Csound for Live, Cabbage, blue, python with csound, csound~ etc.). I agree with what several of you are stating that combining Csound with familiar GUI is a nice way to ease the pain for those who never seen written code in their lives. Sigurd Saue, who works here at NTNU, has a "CsoundPlugin" which is sort of a Cabbage lite. The nice thing about this plugin is that is a bit easier to get started with even though is very limited compared to Cabbage. It has a automatic GUI generator so it's just for the students to add chn channels in their csd's and voila! - GUI controls pop up. I would of course encourage them to go on to Cabbage if they want more customization and GUI control, but I think the whole Cabbage package could be a bit much to take in for someone who's already struggling with getting Csound to make a bip. Sigurd used this plugin teaching the same course last year and had a very good response from the students after introducing this plugin.

Anyways, what I was thinking of originally with this post was to have a short on concise list of arguments for using Csound so it would be possible to say in a short, precise and persuasive manner why students should bother with Csound (aside from the fact that they have to if the want to pass the exam :) And just to make it clear: I'm not meaning to measure it against other alternatives like Max/MSP (we teach Max too in the same course), but it would be appropriate to list what you can't do with commercial/traditional DAWs and plugins. I guess it's more about "why bother with programming when there's so many great synths and effects available?" - which language you choose is another discussion :)

I'll try to compile a list over the weekend based on the inputs from this thread and post it back here to get your opinions again. 

On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 12:45 PM, J Clements <jclements77@gmail.com> wrote:

Regardless of the sound (and cost) of Max/Max for Live, it was really helpful for me as a student of Csound to use these as a way to instantly control Csound and make GUIs that bring the beautiful sound of Csound into the paradigm of the DAW and live MIDI performance that I began with as a younger user of music technology. 

John

On Feb 10, 2012 2:22 AM, "DavidW" <vip@avatar.com.au> wrote:

On 10/02/2012, at 8:09 AM, peiman khosravi wrote:

I personally use both and find max easier for certain things but I'm always surprised to see that students find Csound so much easier and immediate to 'get' compared with maxmsp. Maybe that's reflection on my teaching rather than the programmes themselves though.

In my experience, those who are primarily visual thinkers find the GUI/spatial layout approach of Max/PD easier that CSound (and SC). 

Not always true, but this applies to Art-school sound classees. 

Many composers who write scores find the code approach easier. (same caveat).

Individuals have different mixtures of these perceptual biasses.

Personally I can't think beyond a certain 'depth' with the visual/black-bo approach, whereas I can dream code - and many of my students report likewise.

And then there is the thorny issue of the sound of the thing. I'm biassed but I recon the sound of Max/PD is 'dirtier' than CS and SC. I've never bothered to empirically test this prejudice. Life's too short...

David

Currently my approach is to give a bunch of samples to students to process and mix (to the point of losing their original identities) only in protools and using only the simple native tools/plug-ins. Once they aurally acquire a taste of how different sounds react to different (and basic) digital transformations (e.g. they can use a delay+feedback plug-in more imaginatively to create resonant filtering) Cecilia is introduced to show them more complex processes. Next year I'm hoping to introduce ready-made cabbage plug-ins in a wave-editor (instead of protools) to begin with and gradually encourage them to start modifying the CSDs to suit their specific needs. I think/hope this will wet their appetite to delve more deeply into Csound and start using it creatively. 

Best,

Peiman
 

On 9 February 2012 20:05, Dr. Richard Boulanger <rboulanger@berklee.edu> wrote:

the degree to which "you" actually use and love Csound is the "real" selling point.

___________________________________

Dr. Richard Boulanger, Ph.D.

Professor of Electronic Production and Design

Professional Writing and Music Technology Division

Berklee College of Music

1140 Boylston Street

Boston, MA 02215-3693

617-747-2485 (office)

774-488-9166 (cell)

rboulanger@berklee.edu

http://csounds.com/boulanger

____________________________________

http://csounds.com

http://csoundforlive.com

____________________________________

http://csounds.com/mathews

____________________________________

On Feb 9, 2012, at 10:59 AM, Michael Gogins wrote:

My "selling point" is that head to head it often sounds better. And
there are plenty of free Csound instruments to scarf up.

Regards,
Mike

On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Pat Pagano <bigswift@ufl.edu> wrote:

1.)    Cecilia.---It gets my audio design students interested for years now

Also FLT RT INSTRS like 2.) Improsculpt are crowning achievements of Csound

IMHO.

I used to do a ton of Just Intonation particular systems with csound, that

was great and eye opening in 95/96

pp

From: Bernt Isak Wærstad [mailto:berntisak@gmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 9:31 AM

To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk

Subject: [Csnd] How to motivate students starting with Csound

Hello list!

We discussed motivating students starting with Csound a bit on the

conference and I would like to pick up that thread now since I'm starting

teaching Csound to new students in a couple of weeks. I addition to giving

them examples of different instruments and effects and playing pieces I

though I would give them sort of a list of "selling points" for using Csound

so I thought it might be a good idea to hear what you guys think. And with

"selling points" I don't necessarily think of what you love most of Csound,

but what you think would be the best way to "sell" Csound to a bunch of

somewhat skeptical students. The fact that it's open source and free is

great, but might not matter to much to a guy who doesn't even have a

remotely idea of what Csound is capable of. Hopefully this list could be of

use all of us teaching Csound.

--

Mvh.

Bernt Isak Wærstad

--
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

_____________________________________________

Dr David Worrall

Experimental Composer, Polymedia

Adjunct Research Fellow, Australian National University

David.Worrall@anu.edu.au

Board Member, International Community for Auditory Display

Regional Editor, Organised Sound (CUP) 

IT Projects, Music Council of Australia 

worrall.avatar.com.au sonification.com.au

--
Mvh.

Bernt Isak Wærstad