I was trying to achieve this level of detailed correctness in "A Csound Tutorial..."

Regards,
Mike

-----Original Message-----
>From: "John W. Lato" 
>Sent: Jun 2, 2008 9:58 AM
>To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk, Darren Nelsen 
>Subject: [Csnd] Re: Re: Re: Newbie (sort of) Questions
>
>Quoting Darren Nelsen :
>
>> On Jun 2, 2008, at 12:37 AM, Jim Aikin wrote:
>>
>> > As a freelance journalist, I dare not make that sort of assumption
>> > about my
>> > readers. I assume they're sitting at home in a computer-based music
>> > studio
>> > of some sort and have NO ONE THEY CAN TURN TO in order to get
>> > answers to
>> > basic questions, such as, "What's a command line?"
>>
>> I would suggest that a Csound tutorial is not the place to answer a
>> question like "What's a command line?" Don't mean to sound flippant,
>> but it doesn't take a computer science degree to do a Google or
>> Wikipedia search on 'command line'. Btw, here's that entry:
>>
>
>I think Darren's response here hits the nail square on the head.  Linux/Unix
>users could read Michael's tutorial and follow along easily.  Mac users can use
>MacCsound, and although I don't know the state of tutorials/documentation, I
>thought that it was pretty easy to figure out.  Windows users, however, are
>somewhat stuck.  Most Windows users wouldn't recognize the command line and
>would be afraid of it.  Furthermore, most Windows users don't know about
>textual file paths, the search path, or environment variables (good old SSDIR,
>SFDIR, SADIR, and now PLUGIN64 or whatever it's called).  Csound tutorial
>authors assume that users have a working knowledge of this because it isn't
>csound specific, it is platform dependent, and there's a lot of information
>that needs to be conveyed.  I agree with Darren that a csound tutorial isn't
>the right place to talk about all this, but that doesn't help csound users.
>
>Off the top of my head, I can think of three possible approaches to this
>problem:
>1.  Create a windows-style application and installer.  This partially exists
>with winsound, although to use csound most effectively you still need to
>understand all the details.  Also, I might suggest that Winsound isn't quite as
>polished as many commercial apps, which could turn people off before they really
>have a chance to work with it.  I'm not complaining, and I understand why the
>situation is what it is; I'm just saying that if you're trying to evangelize
>csound on windows, winsound does have some drawbacks.
>
>2.  The csound community could try to be more user-friendly by either providing
>or linking to Windows fundamentals tutorials (CLI, env. vars, etc.).  It could
>be an appendix to the current manual, or separate, but it would provide all the
>necessary background for users to use their computers.
>
>3.  Write a step-by-step tutorial for Windows users from start to finish
>(install to writing an orc/sco and running them), in which no computer
>knowledge is assumed and only directions that anyone can follow are given.  For
>example:
>
>  Click on Start, then Run, and type in "cmd" (without the quotes), then press
>the Enter key.  This will open a black window called a console window.  In the
>top left corner of the window you should see some text similar to "C:\"
>followed by a flashing cursor.
>
>  Next, type "csound foo.csd -W -ofoo.wav" (again without the quotes). etc.
>
>The biggest problem with this sort of tutorial is finding someone to write it. 
>I personally think this kind of work is exceedingly dull, yet it requires
>painstaking care because everything has to be *exactly right*, or it's
>worthless to the intended audience.
>
>Of course, another option is to maintain the status quo.
>
>Cheers,
>John Lato
>
>
>Send bugs reports to this list.
>To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

That's true; your tutorial is extremely detailed and does follow this formula. 
I'd forgotten just how much information it contains!  Maybe a small bit of
tweaking in some areas would be enough to clear up some of these questions for
new users.

John Lato
School of Music
The University of Texas at Austin
1 University Station
Austin, TX  78712


Quoting Michael Gogins :

> I was trying to achieve this level of detailed correctness in "A Csound
> Tutorial..."
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: "John W. Lato" 
> >Sent: Jun 2, 2008 9:58 AM
> >To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk, Darren Nelsen 
> >Subject: [Csnd] Re: Re: Re: Newbie (sort of) Questions
> >
> >Quoting Darren Nelsen :
> >
> >> On Jun 2, 2008, at 12:37 AM, Jim Aikin wrote:
> >>
> >> > As a freelance journalist, I dare not make that sort of assumption
> >> > about my
> >> > readers. I assume they're sitting at home in a computer-based music
> >> > studio
> >> > of some sort and have NO ONE THEY CAN TURN TO in order to get
> >> > answers to
> >> > basic questions, such as, "What's a command line?"
> >>
> >> I would suggest that a Csound tutorial is not the place to answer a
> >> question like "What's a command line?" Don't mean to sound flippant,
> >> but it doesn't take a computer science degree to do a Google or
> >> Wikipedia search on 'command line'. Btw, here's that entry:
> >>
> >
> >I think Darren's response here hits the nail square on the head.  Linux/Unix
> >users could read Michael's tutorial and follow along easily.  Mac users can
> use
> >MacCsound, and although I don't know the state of tutorials/documentation, I
> >thought that it was pretty easy to figure out.  Windows users, however, are
> >somewhat stuck.  Most Windows users wouldn't recognize the command line and
> >would be afraid of it.  Furthermore, most Windows users don't know about
> >textual file paths, the search path, or environment variables (good old
> SSDIR,
> >SFDIR, SADIR, and now PLUGIN64 or whatever it's called).  Csound tutorial
> >authors assume that users have a working knowledge of this because it isn't
> >csound specific, it is platform dependent, and there's a lot of information
> >that needs to be conveyed.  I agree with Darren that a csound tutorial isn't
> >the right place to talk about all this, but that doesn't help csound users.
> >
> >Off the top of my head, I can think of three possible approaches to this
> >problem:
> >1.  Create a windows-style application and installer.  This partially exists
> >with winsound, although to use csound most effectively you still need to
> >understand all the details.  Also, I might suggest that Winsound isn't quite
> as
> >polished as many commercial apps, which could turn people off before they
> really
> >have a chance to work with it.  I'm not complaining, and I understand why
> the
> >situation is what it is; I'm just saying that if you're trying to evangelize
> >csound on windows, winsound does have some drawbacks.
> >
> >2.  The csound community could try to be more user-friendly by either
> providing
> >or linking to Windows fundamentals tutorials (CLI, env. vars, etc.).  It
> could
> >be an appendix to the current manual, or separate, but it would provide all
> the
> >necessary background for users to use their computers.
> >
> >3.  Write a step-by-step tutorial for Windows users from start to finish
> >(install to writing an orc/sco and running them), in which no computer
> >knowledge is assumed and only directions that anyone can follow are given.
> For
> >example:
> >
> >  Click on Start, then Run, and type in "cmd" (without the quotes), then
> press
> >the Enter key.  This will open a black window called a console window.  In
> the
> >top left corner of the window you should see some text similar to "C:\"
> >followed by a flashing cursor.
> >
> >  Next, type "csound foo.csd -W -ofoo.wav" (again without the quotes). etc.
> >
> >The biggest problem with this sort of tutorial is finding someone to write
> it.
> >I personally think this kind of work is exceedingly dull, yet it requires
> >painstaking care because everything has to be *exactly right*, or it's
> >worthless to the intended audience.
> >
> >Of course, another option is to maintain the status quo.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >John Lato
> >
> >
> >Send bugs reports to this list.
> >To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>
>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>