I'm working on a feature on Csound for one of the music technology magazines.
I want to provide an overview that will let people know about some of the
resources, and also give them an idea what they might be able to do with
Csound.

This leads to a couple of questions I'm hoping folks can clarify for me.
Apologies if these questions seem childish, but I'm hoping not to encounter
answers that paraphrase Louis Armstrong's famous reply to the question,
"What is jazz?" ("If you have to ask, you'll never know.") I really would
like some concrete information that I can pass on to magazine readers.

I'm aware that Python code can be embedded in an instr, and conversely that
Csound can be run from a Python interpreter such as Idle. My question is:
why do that? Can someone give me a couple of examples of provocative musical
outcomes that might arise from doing either of the above?

I guess I need to ask the same questions about AthenaCL, TclCsound, and
CsoundAV. And not only, "What are these things good for?", but also, more
basically, "How can one learn how to use them?" In looking at the
descriptions of the former on the Web and of the latter in the Csound
manual, I frankly can't make heads nor tails of any of it.

Here, for instance, is a more or less typical excerpt from the manual: "With
Cswish, Tk widgets and commands can be used to provide graphical interface
and event handling. As with cstclsh, running the cswish command also opens
an interactive shell." Because I don't have a degree in computer science,
that's precisely as clear as mud to me. I have no idea what an interactive
shell is, I wouldn't know how to run the scwish command, and I wouldn't know
what to do with it after I ran it.

Is any of this stuff documented with step-by-step tutorials designed for the
non-expert? Inquiring minds want to know!

--Jim Aikin



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Hi Jim.
Re your python query, what you're talking about is the difference  
between embedding (the opcode option) and extending.

My intro. to those two ideas is here http://www.avatar.com.au/sonipy/python.html
and discussed in the ISCoMS paper which http://www.avatar.com.au/sonipy/index.html 
  has a link to.

Your comments have validity, but the solutions take real time and they  
are educational issues. An intro to such a toolset as csound must  
assume you're coming from a particular perspective, including,  
literacy level, prior experience with other tools, musical motivations  
etc There has been some bits and pieces on intro. material on this  
list so you might like to try to find in the archives. nothing  
comprehensive, however.

What about the csound book?
Cheers and good luck!

David

On 02/06/2008, at 12:43 PM, Jim Aikin wrote:

>
> I'm working on a feature on Csound for one of the music technology  
> magazines.
> I want to provide an overview that will let people know about some  
> of the
> resources, and also give them an idea what they might be able to do  
> with
> Csound.
>
> This leads to a couple of questions I'm hoping folks can clarify for  
> me.
> Apologies if these questions seem childish, but I'm hoping not to  
> encounter
> answers that paraphrase Louis Armstrong's famous reply to the  
> question,
> "What is jazz?" ("If you have to ask, you'll never know.") I really  
> would
> like some concrete information that I can pass on to magazine readers.
>
> I'm aware that Python code can be embedded in an instr, and  
> conversely that
> Csound can be run from a Python interpreter such as Idle. My  
> question is:
> why do that? Can someone give me a couple of examples of provocative  
> musical
> outcomes that might arise from doing either of the above?
>
> I guess I need to ask the same questions about AthenaCL, TclCsound,  
> and
> CsoundAV. And not only, "What are these things good for?", but also,  
> more
> basically, "How can one learn how to use them?" In looking at the
> descriptions of the former on the Web and of the latter in the Csound
> manual, I frankly can't make heads nor tails of any of it.
>
> Here, for instance, is a more or less typical excerpt from the  
> manual: "With
> Cswish, Tk widgets and commands can be used to provide graphical  
> interface
> and event handling. As with cstclsh, running the cswish command also  
> opens
> an interactive shell." Because I don't have a degree in computer  
> science,
> that's precisely as clear as mud to me. I have no idea what an  
> interactive
> shell is, I wouldn't know how to run the scwish command, and I  
> wouldn't know
> what to do with it after I ran it.
>
> Is any of this stuff documented with step-by-step tutorials designed  
> for the
> non-expert? Inquiring minds want to know!
>
> --Jim Aikin

________________________________________________
David Worrall.
- Experimental Polymedia:	www.avatar.com.au
- Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
Australian research affiliations:
- Capital Markets Cooperative Research Centre: www.cmcrc.com
- Sonic Communications Research Group:	creative.canberra.edu.au/scrg

> Re your python query, what you're talking about is the difference  
> between embedding (the opcode option) and extending.

Yes, that much I can see without trouble. What I'm interested in learning
(in this thread, at least) is what would be the musical utility of either
embedding or extending.

> My intro. to those two ideas is here
> http://www.avatar.com.au/sonipy/python.html

I don't see anything on that page about Csound. I've already gone through
the first part of the Python tutorial that ships with Python.

> Your comments have validity, but the solutions take real time and they  
> are educational issues. An intro to such a toolset as csound must  
> assume you're coming from a particular perspective, including,  
> literacy level, prior experience with other tools, musical motivations  
> etc 

Absolutely. I'm not suggesting for a moment that "Csound for Dummies" would
be a 64-page pamphlet! Learning Csound requires a commitment of time. But
before the newcomer will become willing to make an investment of time and
effort, I think they need two things: An idea of what they will be able to
accomplish musically, and some resources that will guide them through the
process.

You're right that an intro to a toolset such as Csound has to make certain
assumptions. My diagnosis is that the existing online tutorials make the
following assumption: that the reader is taking a class in Csound at a
college or university, and will be able to ask questions of the instructor.

As a freelance journalist, I dare not make that sort of assumption about my
readers. I assume they're sitting at home in a computer-based music studio
of some sort and have NO ONE THEY CAN TURN TO in order to get answers to
basic questions, such as, "What's a command line?"

> What about the csound book?

I love it. It's how I learned Csound. Right at this moment I can't offer a
detailed opinion about its relevance to my current quest, as my copy is in
my storage locker, and it's late at night. Thanks for reminding me that I
need to go out tomorrow and get it.

--JA

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On Jun 2, 2008, at 12:37 AM, Jim Aikin wrote:

> As a freelance journalist, I dare not make that sort of assumption  
> about my
> readers. I assume they're sitting at home in a computer-based music  
> studio
> of some sort and have NO ONE THEY CAN TURN TO in order to get  
> answers to
> basic questions, such as, "What's a command line?"

I would suggest that a Csound tutorial is not the place to answer a  
question like "What's a command line?" Don't mean to sound flippant,  
but it doesn't take a computer science degree to do a Google or  
Wikipedia search on 'command line'. Btw, here's that entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_line_interface

Further, since your readers are, as you say, 'in a computer-based  
music studio of some sort', they do have experience with computers and  
MIDI, and if they're on a PC, likely a DOS prompt. If they're Mac- 
based, they'll probably use MacCsound, which requires no interaction  
with the Terminal window, and the command line options are already  
preset.

I was one of those who had 'no one to turn to' and I found my way. So  
the resources are definitely out there (albeit a bit outdated in many  
cases). Readers just might have to do a little digging, which is not  
uncommon for any computer-based music production tool, including  
GarageBand! :)

In any case, here are the resources that continually help me and may  
be helpful to your readers:
- The Csound Book
- Csounds.com
- This mailing list
- The Csound Journal

Also, I would point to cool examples of what can be done with Csound,  
ie. The Flounder!

http://www.flyndresang.no/en/

--
Darren Nelsen
composer/sound artist
http://www.curiomusic.com

Quoting Darren Nelsen :

> On Jun 2, 2008, at 12:37 AM, Jim Aikin wrote:
>
> > As a freelance journalist, I dare not make that sort of assumption
> > about my
> > readers. I assume they're sitting at home in a computer-based music
> > studio
> > of some sort and have NO ONE THEY CAN TURN TO in order to get
> > answers to
> > basic questions, such as, "What's a command line?"
>
> I would suggest that a Csound tutorial is not the place to answer a
> question like "What's a command line?" Don't mean to sound flippant,
> but it doesn't take a computer science degree to do a Google or
> Wikipedia search on 'command line'. Btw, here's that entry:
>

I think Darren's response here hits the nail square on the head.  Linux/Unix
users could read Michael's tutorial and follow along easily.  Mac users can use
MacCsound, and although I don't know the state of tutorials/documentation, I
thought that it was pretty easy to figure out.  Windows users, however, are
somewhat stuck.  Most Windows users wouldn't recognize the command line and
would be afraid of it.  Furthermore, most Windows users don't know about
textual file paths, the search path, or environment variables (good old SSDIR,
SFDIR, SADIR, and now PLUGIN64 or whatever it's called).  Csound tutorial
authors assume that users have a working knowledge of this because it isn't
csound specific, it is platform dependent, and there's a lot of information
that needs to be conveyed.  I agree with Darren that a csound tutorial isn't
the right place to talk about all this, but that doesn't help csound users.

Off the top of my head, I can think of three possible approaches to this
problem:
1.  Create a windows-style application and installer.  This partially exists
with winsound, although to use csound most effectively you still need to
understand all the details.  Also, I might suggest that Winsound isn't quite as
polished as many commercial apps, which could turn people off before they really
have a chance to work with it.  I'm not complaining, and I understand why the
situation is what it is; I'm just saying that if you're trying to evangelize
csound on windows, winsound does have some drawbacks.

2.  The csound community could try to be more user-friendly by either providing
or linking to Windows fundamentals tutorials (CLI, env. vars, etc.).  It could
be an appendix to the current manual, or separate, but it would provide all the
necessary background for users to use their computers.

3.  Write a step-by-step tutorial for Windows users from start to finish
(install to writing an orc/sco and running them), in which no computer
knowledge is assumed and only directions that anyone can follow are given.  For
example:

  Click on Start, then Run, and type in "cmd" (without the quotes), then press
the Enter key.  This will open a black window called a console window.  In the
top left corner of the window you should see some text similar to "C:\"
followed by a flashing cursor.

  Next, type "csound foo.csd -W -ofoo.wav" (again without the quotes). etc.

The biggest problem with this sort of tutorial is finding someone to write it. 
I personally think this kind of work is exceedingly dull, yet it requires
painstaking care because everything has to be *exactly right*, or it's
worthless to the intended audience.

Of course, another option is to maintain the status quo.

Cheers,
John Lato

Darren Nelsen wrote:
> 
> I would suggest that a Csound tutorial is not the place to answer a  
> question like "What's a command line?" Don't mean to sound flippant,  
> but it doesn't take a computer science degree to do a Google or  
> Wikipedia search on 'command line'. Btw, here's that entry:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_line_interface
> 

Great link. Thanks!

I don't mean to quibble over the meaning of the word "tutorial," but I think
we may be talking at cross-purposes here. Most of my work involves
commercial music software (Live, FL Studio, Reason, whatever). These
programs come with manuals, and the assumption behind the manual is -- or at
least, we're entitled to hope that the assumption will be -- that the manual
will tell you everything you need to know to use the software. When this
assumption becomes inoperative, the manual will say something like, "To
learn how to insert the effect in your DAW, consult the DAW manual." The
customer should NEVER be left to hit google and find an article in
wikipedia!

By that measure, Csound has some very good tutorials on specific aspects of
the system. But by that measure, it has no manual.


Darren Nelsen wrote:
> 
> Further, since your readers are, as you say, 'in a computer-based  
> music studio of some sort', they do have experience with computers and  
> MIDI, and if they're on a PC, likely a DOS prompt. If they're Mac- 
> based, they'll probably use MacCsound, which requires no interaction  
> with the Terminal window, and the command line options are already  
> preset.
> 

I think I detect a subtle anti-Microsoft bias there. Windows operates
EXACTLY like the Mac in this regard, and most Windows users don't even KNOW
they have a Command Prompt.

--JA


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Jim Aikin wrote:

> 
> I don't mean to quibble over the meaning of the word "tutorial," but I think
> we may be talking at cross-purposes here. Most of my work involves
> commercial music software (Live, FL Studio, Reason, whatever). These
> programs come with manuals, and the assumption behind the manual is -- or at
> least, we're entitled to hope that the assumption will be -- that the manual
> will tell you everything you need to know to use the software. When this
> assumption becomes inoperative, the manual will say something like, "To
> learn how to insert the effect in your DAW, consult the DAW manual." The
> customer should NEVER be left to hit google and find an article in
> wikipedia!
> 
> By that measure, Csound has some very good tutorials on specific aspects of
> the system. But by that measure, it has no manual.
> 
> 

On the other hand, all those manuals assume all sorts of other prior 
knowledge - how to launch an application; how to use the finder to 
search for/organize soundfiles; use of Alt/Option/Ctrl etc, how to use 
the mouse to click on things (sometimes once, sometimes twice); 
drag'n'drop (or not); in short all the routine GUI operations people do. 
  To say nothing of the special steps to be taken when exchanging files 
and folders between platforms.  The difficulty with Csound is simply 
that it marries (now) ~some~ gui-mode ways of working (not necessarily 
idiomatic to each platform (GUIs can be as opaque as any CLI system to 
new users) with ~some~ of the old-fashioned CLI stuff. It would be just 
as reasonable to criticise the Apple documentation (say) for burying the 
existence and use of Terminal so well (not a default widget in the dock, 
for example), that people may use the machine for years never being 
aware of it.

Whole books have been written, for example, about the bash shell; any 
"concise" documentation on basic shell usage is bound to simplify things 
probably to excess, omit possibly useful information, and at worst may 
even be misleading.

So while there is certainly a need to include some discussion of CLI 
usage for each platform in the manual, it cannot tell the whole story 
unless it is on a truly epic scale!


Richard Dobson

Richard Dobson wrote:
> 
> On the other hand, all those manuals assume all sorts of other prior 
> knowledge - how to launch an application; how to use the finder to 
> search for/organize soundfiles; use of Alt/Option/Ctrl etc, how to use 
> the mouse to click on things (sometimes once, sometimes twice); 
> drag'n'drop (or not); in short all the routine GUI operations people do.
> 

Not necessarily. I've seen manuals for music software that explained ALL of
those operations in a step-by-step fashion. As they should. Not all manuals
are that thorough, of course.


Richard Dobson wrote:
> 
> The difficulty with Csound is simply 
> that it marries (now) ~some~ gui-mode ways of working (not necessarily 
> idiomatic to each platform (GUIs can be as opaque as any CLI system to 
> new users) with ~some~ of the old-fashioned CLI stuff. It would be just 
> as reasonable to criticise the Apple documentation (say) for burying the 
> existence and use of Terminal so well (not a default widget in the dock, 
> for example), that people may use the machine for years never being 
> aware of it.
> 

I disagree. The reason it's buried is that most people don't NEED to ever be
aware of it. Apple knows their customer base, I'm sure.


Richard Dobson wrote:
> 
> Whole books have been written, for example, about the bash shell; any 
> "concise" documentation on basic shell usage is bound to simplify things 
> probably to excess, omit possibly useful information, and at worst may 
> even be misleading.
> 
> So while there is certainly a need to include some discussion of CLI 
> usage for each platform in the manual, it cannot tell the whole story 
> unless it is on a truly epic scale!
> 

I'm not arguing in favor of completeness. I'm arguing in favor of
sufficiency -- that is, providing enough information that a newcomer can at
least proceed from installation to hearing a sound without grinding to a
halt because the documentation tosses in an arcane term without explaining
it, or makes incorrect assumptions about the user's system.

--JA


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On Jun 2, 2008, at 12:21 PM, Jim Aikin wrote:

>
> I think I detect a subtle anti-Microsoft bias there. Windows operates
> EXACTLY like the Mac in this regard, and most Windows users don't  
> even KNOW
> they have a Command Prompt.

Well now you're making stuff up. I'm only speaking from my experience  
of using Csound years ago on PC via command line. GUI Windows version?  
Great! Can you talk about that in your article?

I remember reading a piece in Keyboard magazine years ago (I think it  
was 1999 or 2000) as an introduction to Csound. It had a simple  
tutorial to get folks started. That's what got me going (on Windows! ;)

Point is, with these kinds of introductions, interested users will  
find their way. Resources are there, as I pointed out in my email, and  
with the many great suggestions offered, we can make them better.

Darren

El Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:25:49 -0700 (PDT)
Jim Aikin  escribió:

> I disagree. The reason it's buried is that most people don't NEED to
> ever be aware of it. Apple knows their customer base, I'm sure.

I disagree. The reason it's buried is that Apple doesn't WANT you to
be aware of it. When you DO need it, they make it deliberately
difficult to find. OTOH, they put lots of crap nobody needs right in
your face. So, why not give the text terminal a chance? Apple has
_created_ their customer base, I'm sure.

Jim,

I completely agree with the main point you are writing about. In my  
words: Csound offers great tools for whatever a creative musician can  
wish to do, but there's a lot of work to do in writing clear  
instructions, good tutorials, and and and ... When I'm teaching  
Csound to young people who are studying composition (not computer  
science) I can see that they are often frustrated because of the lack  
of a simple-and-good-and-up-to-date tutorial (or something like Quick  
Start with Csound).

Who can do this immense work? I really don't know, but I think, those  
of us, who are teaching in a university or something similar, can  
perhaps try to help here. Why not to work together with the students  
to write good new tutorials? Or to connect the resources in research  
or education of the own university with the development of good  
introductions, better examples and so on? This can be an important  
contribution, I think.

Just two more points to your questions. First, I highly recommend Ian  
McCurdy's Realtime Examples ( http://iainmccurdy.org/csound.html ).  
As I see, Ian has recently extended his fantastic collection. This  
can not replace a tutorial, but in my opinion it's a great work and  
tends to become a good overwiew for newbies: what can you do with  
Csound, in an instructive way, intuitive and good written and commented.

Second: TclCsound. I think this is one of the very interesting  
connections between Csound as an audio engine and a programming  
interface. I recently tried to work with it, for being able to have a  
more simple and more comfortable GUI as the FLTK widgets inside  
Csound offer. For example, I will perform a piece of Grisey for large  
ensemble and tape, and the director needs a very large time display  
on a screen. So I did this with TclCsound (I attach the .csd and  
the .tcl if you are interested in). It's great to have this  
connection between TclTk and Csound. I often found it hard because  
the introduction in the manual is not really for beginners, but I  
know, it's not Victor who can do this work. He helped a lot in  
answering questions, and hopefully we can make this better step by  
step. I'll try to contribute when I have learned more in TclTk.

Ciao -

	joachim




Am 02.06.2008 um 04:43 schrieb Jim Aikin:

>
> I'm working on a feature on Csound for one of the music technology  
> magazines.
> I want to provide an overview that will let people know about some  
> of the
> resources, and also give them an idea what they might be able to do  
> with
> Csound.
>
> This leads to a couple of questions I'm hoping folks can clarify  
> for me.
> Apologies if these questions seem childish, but I'm hoping not to  
> encounter
> answers that paraphrase Louis Armstrong's famous reply to the  
> question,
> "What is jazz?" ("If you have to ask, you'll never know.") I really  
> would
> like some concrete information that I can pass on to magazine readers.
>
> I'm aware that Python code can be embedded in an instr, and  
> conversely that
> Csound can be run from a Python interpreter such as Idle. My  
> question is:
> why do that? Can someone give me a couple of examples of  
> provocative musical
> outcomes that might arise from doing either of the above?
>
> I guess I need to ask the same questions about AthenaCL, TclCsound,  
> and
> CsoundAV. And not only, "What are these things good for?", but  
> also, more
> basically, "How can one learn how to use them?" In looking at the
> descriptions of the former on the Web and of the latter in the Csound
> manual, I frankly can't make heads nor tails of any of it.
>
> Here, for instance, is a more or less typical excerpt from the  
> manual: "With
> Cswish, Tk widgets and commands can be used to provide graphical  
> interface
> and event handling. As with cstclsh, running the cswish command  
> also opens
> an interactive shell." Because I don't have a degree in computer  
> science,
> that's precisely as clear as mud to me. I have no idea what an  
> interactive
> shell is, I wouldn't know how to run the scwish command, and I  
> wouldn't know
> what to do with it after I ran it.
>
> Is any of this stuff documented with step-by-step tutorials  
> designed for the
> non-expert? Inquiring minds want to know!
>
> --Jim Aikin
>
>
>
> -- 
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Newbie-%28sort- 
> of%29-Questions-tp17593144p17593144.html
> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

Ian's examples are fantastic.  His new stuff is super fantastic!

I would love to try your TclCsound on my MacBook Pro, not exactly  
sure how.  Can you advise?

-dB


On Jun 5, 2008, at 5:23 PM, joachim heintz wrote:

> Jim,
>
> I completely agree with the main point you are writing about. In my  
> words: Csound offers great tools for whatever a creative musician  
> can wish to do, but there's a lot of work to do in writing clear  
> instructions, good tutorials, and and and ... When I'm teaching  
> Csound to young people who are studying composition (not computer  
> science) I can see that they are often frustrated because of the  
> lack of a simple-and-good-and-up-to-date tutorial (or something  
> like Quick Start with Csound).
>
> Who can do this immense work? I really don't know, but I think,  
> those of us, who are teaching in a university or something similar,  
> can perhaps try to help here. Why not to work together with the  
> students to write good new tutorials? Or to connect the resources  
> in research or education of the own university with the development  
> of good introductions, better examples and so on? This can be an  
> important contribution, I think.
>
> Just two more points to your questions. First, I highly recommend  
> Ian McCurdy's Realtime Examples ( http://iainmccurdy.org/ 
> csound.html ). As I see, Ian has recently extended his fantastic  
> collection. This can not replace a tutorial, but in my opinion it's  
> a great work and tends to become a good overwiew for newbies: what  
> can you do with Csound, in an instructive way, intuitive and good  
> written and commented.
>
> Second: TclCsound. I think this is one of the very interesting  
> connections between Csound as an audio engine and a programming  
> interface. I recently tried to work with it, for being able to have  
> a more simple and more comfortable GUI as the FLTK widgets inside  
> Csound offer. For example, I will perform a piece of Grisey for  
> large ensemble and tape, and the director needs a very large time  
> display on a screen. So I did this with TclCsound (I attach  
> the .csd and the .tcl if you are interested in). It's great to have  
> this connection between TclTk and Csound. I often found it hard  
> because the introduction in the manual is not really for beginners,  
> but I know, it's not Victor who can do this work. He helped a lot  
> in answering questions, and hopefully we can make this better step  
> by step. I'll try to contribute when I have learned more in TclTk.
>
> Ciao -
>
> 	joachim
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
> Am 02.06.2008 um 04:43 schrieb Jim Aikin:
>
>>
>> I'm working on a feature on Csound for one of the music technology  
>> magazines.
>> I want to provide an overview that will let people know about some  
>> of the
>> resources, and also give them an idea what they might be able to  
>> do with
>> Csound.
>>
>> This leads to a couple of questions I'm hoping folks can clarify  
>> for me.
>> Apologies if these questions seem childish, but I'm hoping not to  
>> encounter
>> answers that paraphrase Louis Armstrong's famous reply to the  
>> question,
>> "What is jazz?" ("If you have to ask, you'll never know.") I  
>> really would
>> like some concrete information that I can pass on to magazine  
>> readers.
>>
>> I'm aware that Python code can be embedded in an instr, and  
>> conversely that
>> Csound can be run from a Python interpreter such as Idle. My  
>> question is:
>> why do that? Can someone give me a couple of examples of  
>> provocative musical
>> outcomes that might arise from doing either of the above?
>>
>> I guess I need to ask the same questions about AthenaCL,  
>> TclCsound, and
>> CsoundAV. And not only, "What are these things good for?", but  
>> also, more
>> basically, "How can one learn how to use them?" In looking at the
>> descriptions of the former on the Web and of the latter in the Csound
>> manual, I frankly can't make heads nor tails of any of it.
>>
>> Here, for instance, is a more or less typical excerpt from the  
>> manual: "With
>> Cswish, Tk widgets and commands can be used to provide graphical  
>> interface
>> and event handling. As with cstclsh, running the cswish command  
>> also opens
>> an interactive shell." Because I don't have a degree in computer  
>> science,
>> that's precisely as clear as mud to me. I have no idea what an  
>> interactive
>> shell is, I wouldn't know how to run the scwish command, and I  
>> wouldn't know
>> what to do with it after I ran it.
>>
>> Is any of this stuff documented with step-by-step tutorials  
>> designed for the
>> non-expert? Inquiring minds want to know!
>>
>> --Jim Aikin
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Newbie-%28sort- 
>> of%29-Questions-tp17593144p17593144.html
>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>

You just have to run "LargeClock.tcl" from the Terminal (because of  
the first line it will be executed by /usr/local/bin/cswish). Before  
this, please change two things:
- in "LargeClock.tcl" at the top the path of "LargeClock.csd" (set  
filename ...)
- in "LargeClock.csd" in instr 1 the soundfile you want to play.
Thanks for your interest. Please let me know if it's not working.

	joachim



Am 06.06.2008 um 04:57 schrieb Dr. Richard Boulanger:

> Ian's examples are fantastic.  His new stuff is super fantastic!
>
> I would love to try your TclCsound on my MacBook Pro, not exactly  
> sure how.  Can you advise?
>
> -dB
>
>
> On Jun 5, 2008, at 5:23 PM, joachim heintz wrote:
>
>> Jim,
>>
>> I completely agree with the main point you are writing about. In  
>> my words: Csound offers great tools for whatever a creative  
>> musician can wish to do, but there's a lot of work to do in  
>> writing clear instructions, good tutorials, and and and ... When  
>> I'm teaching Csound to young people who are studying composition  
>> (not computer science) I can see that they are often frustrated  
>> because of the lack of a simple-and-good-and-up-to-date tutorial  
>> (or something like Quick Start with Csound).
>>
>> Who can do this immense work? I really don't know, but I think,  
>> those of us, who are teaching in a university or something  
>> similar, can perhaps try to help here. Why not to work together  
>> with the students to write good new tutorials? Or to connect the  
>> resources in research or education of the own university with the  
>> development of good introductions, better examples and so on? This  
>> can be an important contribution, I think.
>>
>> Just two more points to your questions. First, I highly recommend  
>> Ian McCurdy's Realtime Examples ( http://iainmccurdy.org/ 
>> csound.html ). As I see, Ian has recently extended his fantastic  
>> collection. This can not replace a tutorial, but in my opinion  
>> it's a great work and tends to become a good overwiew for newbies:  
>> what can you do with Csound, in an instructive way, intuitive and  
>> good written and commented.
>>
>> Second: TclCsound. I think this is one of the very interesting  
>> connections between Csound as an audio engine and a programming  
>> interface. I recently tried to work with it, for being able to  
>> have a more simple and more comfortable GUI as the FLTK widgets  
>> inside Csound offer. For example, I will perform a piece of Grisey  
>> for large ensemble and tape, and the director needs a very large  
>> time display on a screen. So I did this with TclCsound (I attach  
>> the .csd and the .tcl if you are interested in). It's great to  
>> have this connection between TclTk and Csound. I often found it  
>> hard because the introduction in the manual is not really for  
>> beginners, but I know, it's not Victor who can do this work. He  
>> helped a lot in answering questions, and hopefully we can make  
>> this better step by step. I'll try to contribute when I have  
>> learned more in TclTk.
>>
>> Ciao -
>>
>> 	joachim
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>>
>> Am 02.06.2008 um 04:43 schrieb Jim Aikin:
>>
>>>
>>> I'm working on a feature on Csound for one of the music  
>>> technology magazines.
>>> I want to provide an overview that will let people know about  
>>> some of the
>>> resources, and also give them an idea what they might be able to  
>>> do with
>>> Csound.
>>>
>>> This leads to a couple of questions I'm hoping folks can clarify  
>>> for me.
>>> Apologies if these questions seem childish, but I'm hoping not to  
>>> encounter
>>> answers that paraphrase Louis Armstrong's famous reply to the  
>>> question,
>>> "What is jazz?" ("If you have to ask, you'll never know.") I  
>>> really would
>>> like some concrete information that I can pass on to magazine  
>>> readers.
>>>
>>> I'm aware that Python code can be embedded in an instr, and  
>>> conversely that
>>> Csound can be run from a Python interpreter such as Idle. My  
>>> question is:
>>> why do that? Can someone give me a couple of examples of  
>>> provocative musical
>>> outcomes that might arise from doing either of the above?
>>>
>>> I guess I need to ask the same questions about AthenaCL,  
>>> TclCsound, and
>>> CsoundAV. And not only, "What are these things good for?", but  
>>> also, more
>>> basically, "How can one learn how to use them?" In looking at the
>>> descriptions of the former on the Web and of the latter in the  
>>> Csound
>>> manual, I frankly can't make heads nor tails of any of it.
>>>
>>> Here, for instance, is a more or less typical excerpt from the  
>>> manual: "With
>>> Cswish, Tk widgets and commands can be used to provide graphical  
>>> interface
>>> and event handling. As with cstclsh, running the cswish command  
>>> also opens
>>> an interactive shell." Because I don't have a degree in computer  
>>> science,
>>> that's precisely as clear as mud to me. I have no idea what an  
>>> interactive
>>> shell is, I wouldn't know how to run the scwish command, and I  
>>> wouldn't know
>>> what to do with it after I ran it.
>>>
>>> Is any of this stuff documented with step-by-step tutorials  
>>> designed for the
>>> non-expert? Inquiring minds want to know!
>>>
>>> --Jim Aikin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Newbie-% 
>>> 28sort-of%29-Questions-tp17593144p17593144.html
>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

Thanks Joachim,

It worked great and I appreciate very much your writing and sharing  
it with us.
Hopefully you will share more of your TCL examples as you develop them.

-dB

On Jun 6, 2008, at 7:37 AM, joachim heintz wrote:

> You just have to run "LargeClock.tcl" from the Terminal (because of  
> the first line it will be executed by /usr/local/bin/cswish).  
> Before this, please change two things:
> - in "LargeClock.tcl" at the top the path of "LargeClock.csd" (set  
> filename ...)
> - in "LargeClock.csd" in instr 1 the soundfile you want to play.
> Thanks for your interest. Please let me know if it's not working.
>
> 	joachim
>
>
>
> Am 06.06.2008 um 04:57 schrieb Dr. Richard Boulanger:
>
>> Ian's examples are fantastic.  His new stuff is super fantastic!
>>
>> I would love to try your TclCsound on my MacBook Pro, not exactly  
>> sure how.  Can you advise?
>>
>> -dB
>>
>>
>> On Jun 5, 2008, at 5:23 PM, joachim heintz wrote:
>>
>>> Jim,
>>>
>>> I completely agree with the main point you are writing about. In  
>>> my words: Csound offers great tools for whatever a creative  
>>> musician can wish to do, but there's a lot of work to do in  
>>> writing clear instructions, good tutorials, and and and ... When  
>>> I'm teaching Csound to young people who are studying composition  
>>> (not computer science) I can see that they are often frustrated  
>>> because of the lack of a simple-and-good-and-up-to-date tutorial  
>>> (or something like Quick Start with Csound).
>>>
>>> Who can do this immense work? I really don't know, but I think,  
>>> those of us, who are teaching in a university or something  
>>> similar, can perhaps try to help here. Why not to work together  
>>> with the students to write good new tutorials? Or to connect the  
>>> resources in research or education of the own university with the  
>>> development of good introductions, better examples and so on?  
>>> This can be an important contribution, I think.
>>>
>>> Just two more points to your questions. First, I highly recommend  
>>> Ian McCurdy's Realtime Examples ( http://iainmccurdy.org/ 
>>> csound.html ). As I see, Ian has recently extended his fantastic  
>>> collection. This can not replace a tutorial, but in my opinion  
>>> it's a great work and tends to become a good overwiew for  
>>> newbies: what can you do with Csound, in an instructive way,  
>>> intuitive and good written and commented.
>>>
>>> Second: TclCsound. I think this is one of the very interesting  
>>> connections between Csound as an audio engine and a programming  
>>> interface. I recently tried to work with it, for being able to  
>>> have a more simple and more comfortable GUI as the FLTK widgets  
>>> inside Csound offer. For example, I will perform a piece of  
>>> Grisey for large ensemble and tape, and the director needs a very  
>>> large time display on a screen. So I did this with TclCsound (I  
>>> attach the .csd and the .tcl if you are interested in). It's  
>>> great to have this connection between TclTk and Csound. I often  
>>> found it hard because the introduction in the manual is not  
>>> really for beginners, but I know, it's not Victor who can do this  
>>> work. He helped a lot in answering questions, and hopefully we  
>>> can make this better step by step. I'll try to contribute when I  
>>> have learned more in TclTk.
>>>
>>> Ciao -
>>>
>>> 	joachim
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 02.06.2008 um 04:43 schrieb Jim Aikin:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm working on a feature on Csound for one of the music  
>>>> technology magazines.
>>>> I want to provide an overview that will let people know about  
>>>> some of the
>>>> resources, and also give them an idea what they might be able to  
>>>> do with
>>>> Csound.
>>>>
>>>> This leads to a couple of questions I'm hoping folks can clarify  
>>>> for me.
>>>> Apologies if these questions seem childish, but I'm hoping not  
>>>> to encounter
>>>> answers that paraphrase Louis Armstrong's famous reply to the  
>>>> question,
>>>> "What is jazz?" ("If you have to ask, you'll never know.") I  
>>>> really would
>>>> like some concrete information that I can pass on to magazine  
>>>> readers.
>>>>
>>>> I'm aware that Python code can be embedded in an instr, and  
>>>> conversely that
>>>> Csound can be run from a Python interpreter such as Idle. My  
>>>> question is:
>>>> why do that? Can someone give me a couple of examples of  
>>>> provocative musical
>>>> outcomes that might arise from doing either of the above?
>>>>
>>>> I guess I need to ask the same questions about AthenaCL,  
>>>> TclCsound, and
>>>> CsoundAV. And not only, "What are these things good for?", but  
>>>> also, more
>>>> basically, "How can one learn how to use them?" In looking at the
>>>> descriptions of the former on the Web and of the latter in the  
>>>> Csound
>>>> manual, I frankly can't make heads nor tails of any of it.
>>>>
>>>> Here, for instance, is a more or less typical excerpt from the  
>>>> manual: "With
>>>> Cswish, Tk widgets and commands can be used to provide graphical  
>>>> interface
>>>> and event handling. As with cstclsh, running the cswish command  
>>>> also opens
>>>> an interactive shell." Because I don't have a degree in computer  
>>>> science,
>>>> that's precisely as clear as mud to me. I have no idea what an  
>>>> interactive
>>>> shell is, I wouldn't know how to run the scwish command, and I  
>>>> wouldn't know
>>>> what to do with it after I ran it.
>>>>
>>>> Is any of this stuff documented with step-by-step tutorials  
>>>> designed for the
>>>> non-expert? Inquiring minds want to know!
>>>>
>>>> --Jim Aikin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Newbie-% 
>>>> 28sort-of%29-Questions-tp17593144p17593144.html
>>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"