Gotta say, I am with Mr. Aikin here. That's why I wrote my tutorial in the 
first place. I will improve it according to suggestions received.

Regards,
Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Aikin" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:16 PM
Subject: [Csnd] Re: Re al-Time MIDI Input


>
>
>
> mark jamerson wrote:
>>
>>     It would be much easier to answer this question if you posted the 
>> .csd
>> and/or the compiler output with your question.
>>
> In general, of course you're right. However, in this particular case, the
> file Michael recommends in the tutorial (CsoundVST-nomixer.csd) is one
> that's distributed with Csound. You'll find it in the Examples folder. I
> should of course have mentioned that.
>
>
> mark jamerson wrote:
>>
>> You mentioned that you edited the .csd.  It's highly possible that you
>> accidentally insert an extra character.
>>
>
> The usual result of that is that it won't compile. In this case it did. In
> any event, we're further along in the toubleshooting process now. The
> problem (which was very obvious once it was pointed out to me) was that I
> needed to edit the file even more. Michael's tutorial failed to point out
> that in order to get real-time performance, the score has to contain this
> type of line:
>
> f0 3600
>
> So ultimately, it was a bug in the tutorial -- a simple one that I could
> have figured out for myself if I had stopped to think about it for a 
> minute.
>
>
> mark jamerson wrote:
>>
>>     I've been reading your question threads and keeping to myself because
>> I'm not a highly experienced user, but now I've chosen to input.  It
>> sounds like there is a drive to create a "Csound for Dummies" type
>> document/site.  I think the major flaw with this idea is that Csound is
>> NOT for Dummies.  It is a highly sophisticated programming language used
>> to realize high level concepts of synthesis, analysis, and composition.
>> Basically, I feel that no part of Csound is a beginner concept.
>>
>
> I basically agree with your characterization of Csound. And I totally 
> agree
> that work (lots of work) will be required for anyone to master it.
>
> But there are other factors rambling along in the back of my mind, which
> perhaps I should make explicit.
>
> First, I'm a big supporter of making cool tools available to musicians, 
> and
> free tools especially. Most musicians are poor! A system that lets people 
> do
> sophisticated things without spending piles of money is something I feel
> EVERY musician who uses a computer needs to know about.
>
> Second, the Csound documentation is _not_ as clear or explanatory as it
> could or should be. Now, I understand that all of the docs are prepared by
> unpaid volunteers, and that one shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth.
> But if a musician gives up in bafflement because some feature of Csound 
> (or
> more likely, five or six features) wasn't explained clearly, we all lose.
> The Csound community loses that musician, and his or her potential 
> audience
> loses the experience of some cool music that will never get recorded.
>
>
> mark jamerson wrote:
>>
>>     Yes, there are things that the Csound community could do to make the
>> journey of a newbie smoother, but I don't feel that it will ever be easy.
>>
>>      The info is out there if a person wants to learn it.  When the pupil
>> is ready, the teacher will arise.
>>
>
> There are a lot of young people who can't afford to attend "public"
> universities in California (where I happen to live), or who can't get the
> classes they need in order to graduate due to budget cutbacks, who would 
> say
> that that assertion is rather naive.
>
> Partly it's a matter of scale. If you want to learn Java or Javascript,
> you'll find TONS of free resources on the Web that will get you going. The
> Csound community is perhaps 0.1% of the size of the Javascript community, 
> so
> it's not entirely surprising that there's a need for more better 
> tutorials.
>
> Also, I'm sensitive on this subject because I've been writing and editing
> how-to material for musicians who use synthesizers for the past 30 years.
> When I look at the Csound manual's page on Real-time MIDI Support, for
> instance: (a) It never mentions using the GUI as an option, only the 
> command
> line, and (b) the words "buffer" and "latency" are never used. That being
> the case, I would not characterize this page as providing a sufficient
> discussion of the topic. I'm speaking not as a baffled musician (though 
> I'm
> sometimes in that category) but as a professional editor.
>
> In the past year or two I've done a fair amount of hobbyist programming of
> text-based games using a system called TADS 3. The TADS author community 
> is
> at least one order of magnitude smaller than the Csound user community, 
> and
> very likely two or three orders of magnitude smaller. If there are more 
> than
> a hundred TADS 3 users in the world, I'd be shocked. Yet the TADS
> documentation ... well, it's not perfect (and TADS users will tell you I
> like to kvetch about it), but it's much more thorough and readable than 
> the
> Csound documentation.
>
> I suspect one important reason why that's the case is that the TADS
> community, like the world at large, consists primarily of Windows and Mac
> users. The Csound community, in contrast, is overbalanced in the direction
> of Unix/Linux users. Unix/Linux users are, by and large, extremely
> computer-literate and used to figuring stuff out for themselves. Mac and
> Windows users are not. I suspect (though I can't prove it) that the state 
> of
> the Csound documentation more closely reflects the attitudes and
> expectations of the Unix/Linux community.
>
> It's a theory, anyhow. Maybe I'm entirely wrong. As always, YMMV.
>
> --JA
>
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/Real-Time-MIDI-Input-tp17657585p17660644.html
> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe 
> csound" 

Michael,

Feel free to blend in sections of mine - or links to it at the  
appropriate places.

Rick

On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:54 PM, Michael Gogins wrote:

> Gotta say, I am with Mr. Aikin here. That's why I wrote my tutorial  
> in the first place. I will improve it according to suggestions  
> received.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Aikin"  
> 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:16 PM
> Subject: [Csnd] Re: Re al-Time MIDI Input
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> mark jamerson wrote:
>>>
>>>     It would be much easier to answer this question if you posted  
>>> the .csd
>>> and/or the compiler output with your question.
>>>
>> In general, of course you're right. However, in this particular  
>> case, the
>> file Michael recommends in the tutorial (CsoundVST-nomixer.csd) is  
>> one
>> that's distributed with Csound. You'll find it in the Examples  
>> folder. I
>> should of course have mentioned that.
>>
>>
>> mark jamerson wrote:
>>>
>>> You mentioned that you edited the .csd.  It's highly possible  
>>> that you
>>> accidentally insert an extra character.
>>>
>>
>> The usual result of that is that it won't compile. In this case it  
>> did. In
>> any event, we're further along in the toubleshooting process now. The
>> problem (which was very obvious once it was pointed out to me) was  
>> that I
>> needed to edit the file even more. Michael's tutorial failed to  
>> point out
>> that in order to get real-time performance, the score has to  
>> contain this
>> type of line:
>>
>> f0 3600
>>
>> So ultimately, it was a bug in the tutorial -- a simple one that I  
>> could
>> have figured out for myself if I had stopped to think about it for  
>> a minute.
>>
>>
>> mark jamerson wrote:
>>>
>>>     I've been reading your question threads and keeping to myself  
>>> because
>>> I'm not a highly experienced user, but now I've chosen to input.  It
>>> sounds like there is a drive to create a "Csound for Dummies" type
>>> document/site.  I think the major flaw with this idea is that  
>>> Csound is
>>> NOT for Dummies.  It is a highly sophisticated programming  
>>> language used
>>> to realize high level concepts of synthesis, analysis, and  
>>> composition.
>>> Basically, I feel that no part of Csound is a beginner concept.
>>>
>>
>> I basically agree with your characterization of Csound. And I  
>> totally agree
>> that work (lots of work) will be required for anyone to master it.
>>
>> But there are other factors rambling along in the back of my mind,  
>> which
>> perhaps I should make explicit.
>>
>> First, I'm a big supporter of making cool tools available to  
>> musicians, and
>> free tools especially. Most musicians are poor! A system that lets  
>> people do
>> sophisticated things without spending piles of money is something  
>> I feel
>> EVERY musician who uses a computer needs to know about.
>>
>> Second, the Csound documentation is _not_ as clear or explanatory  
>> as it
>> could or should be. Now, I understand that all of the docs are  
>> prepared by
>> unpaid volunteers, and that one shouldn't look a gift horse in the  
>> mouth.
>> But if a musician gives up in bafflement because some feature of  
>> Csound (or
>> more likely, five or six features) wasn't explained clearly, we  
>> all lose.
>> The Csound community loses that musician, and his or her potential  
>> audience
>> loses the experience of some cool music that will never get recorded.
>>
>>
>> mark jamerson wrote:
>>>
>>>     Yes, there are things that the Csound community could do to  
>>> make the
>>> journey of a newbie smoother, but I don't feel that it will ever  
>>> be easy.
>>>
>>>      The info is out there if a person wants to learn it.  When  
>>> the pupil
>>> is ready, the teacher will arise.
>>>
>>
>> There are a lot of young people who can't afford to attend "public"
>> universities in California (where I happen to live), or who can't  
>> get the
>> classes they need in order to graduate due to budget cutbacks, who  
>> would say
>> that that assertion is rather naive.
>>
>> Partly it's a matter of scale. If you want to learn Java or  
>> Javascript,
>> you'll find TONS of free resources on the Web that will get you  
>> going. The
>> Csound community is perhaps 0.1% of the size of the Javascript  
>> community, so
>> it's not entirely surprising that there's a need for more better  
>> tutorials.
>>
>> Also, I'm sensitive on this subject because I've been writing and  
>> editing
>> how-to material for musicians who use synthesizers for the past 30  
>> years.
>> When I look at the Csound manual's page on Real-time MIDI Support,  
>> for
>> instance: (a) It never mentions using the GUI as an option, only  
>> the command
>> line, and (b) the words "buffer" and "latency" are never used.  
>> That being
>> the case, I would not characterize this page as providing a  
>> sufficient
>> discussion of the topic. I'm speaking not as a baffled musician  
>> (though I'm
>> sometimes in that category) but as a professional editor.
>>
>> In the past year or two I've done a fair amount of hobbyist  
>> programming of
>> text-based games using a system called TADS 3. The TADS author  
>> community is
>> at least one order of magnitude smaller than the Csound user  
>> community, and
>> very likely two or three orders of magnitude smaller. If there are  
>> more than
>> a hundred TADS 3 users in the world, I'd be shocked. Yet the TADS
>> documentation ... well, it's not perfect (and TADS users will tell  
>> you I
>> like to kvetch about it), but it's much more thorough and readable  
>> than the
>> Csound documentation.
>>
>> I suspect one important reason why that's the case is that the TADS
>> community, like the world at large, consists primarily of Windows  
>> and Mac
>> users. The Csound community, in contrast, is overbalanced in the  
>> direction
>> of Unix/Linux users. Unix/Linux users are, by and large, extremely
>> computer-literate and used to figuring stuff out for themselves.  
>> Mac and
>> Windows users are not. I suspect (though I can't prove it) that  
>> the state of
>> the Csound documentation more closely reflects the attitudes and
>> expectations of the Unix/Linux community.
>>
>> It's a theory, anyhow. Maybe I'm entirely wrong. As always, YMMV.
>>
>> --JA
>>
>> -- 
>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Real-Time-MIDI- 
>> Input-tp17657585p17660644.html
>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"