-odac


sr = 44100
ksmps = 32
nchnls = 2
0dbfs = 1

giControl ftgen     0, 0, -5*kr, 2, 0 ;<------------------------- *why kr
cycle and not audio cycle?*
giWave    ftgen     0, 0, 2^10, 10, 1, .5, .3, .1;<-------------- *why do we
need partials for the aSnd?*
          seed      0;<------------------------------------------ *how does
it work and what does "provide predictable results from an orchestra" mean?*

  instr 1
aFreq     randomi   200, 400, 1
aSnd      poscil    .2, aFreq, giWave; 
          outs      aSnd, aSnd
aindx     phasor    1/5000;<------------------------------------- *how does
the phasor work, how does it index different table values, how do i know
what frequency to use ?*
          tablew    aFreq, aindx, giControl, 1;<----------------- *why do we
use aFreq and not aSnd? Do we only write frequency information?*
  endin

  instr 2
kFreq     poscil    1, 1/5000, giControl;<----------------------- *how does
the frequency work, does it scan 1/5000 points of the table in a second*
aSnd      poscil    .2, kFreq, giWave
          outs      aSnd, aSnd
  endin


i 1 0 5
i 2 6 5



Ok, so as usual i'm completely clueless how things work in csound and feel
no shame in posting these pesky questions (i know i should). 

What i think i understand is that we create an empty table (with zeros),
then with phasor as indexer for the points in the table, and aFreq as a
source for information that we write into those points, we fill the table.
After that i have no idea how the phasor actually browses the different
points in the table and how the oscilator reads them. I tried changing the
1/5000 values (actually the original one was 1/5) and got various results
where the pitch changed, the content of the sound changed and from what i
understand, that if the oscilators frequency value is higher than the
phasors, it will not read the whole table. So i don't really understand how
the whole things works behind the hood and why.  




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hi -

is this an example from the floss manual? if so, could you tell which 
one? it would be easier to know the context.

best -

	joachim


Am 20.04.2014 19:06, schrieb Askwazzup:
> 
> 
> -odac
> 
> 
> sr = 44100
> ksmps = 32
> nchnls = 2
> 0dbfs = 1
>
> giControl ftgen     0, 0, -5*kr, 2, 0 ;<------------------------- *why kr
> cycle and not audio cycle?*
> giWave    ftgen     0, 0, 2^10, 10, 1, .5, .3, .1;<-------------- *why do we
> need partials for the aSnd?*
>            seed      0;<------------------------------------------ *how does
> it work and what does "provide predictable results from an orchestra" mean?*
>
>    instr 1
> aFreq     randomi   200, 400, 1
> aSnd      poscil    .2, aFreq, giWave;
>            outs      aSnd, aSnd
> aindx     phasor    1/5000;<------------------------------------- *how does
> the phasor work, how does it index different table values, how do i know
> what frequency to use ?*
>            tablew    aFreq, aindx, giControl, 1;<----------------- *why do we
> use aFreq and not aSnd? Do we only write frequency information?*
>    endin
>
>    instr 2
> kFreq     poscil    1, 1/5000, giControl;<----------------------- *how does
> the frequency work, does it scan 1/5000 points of the table in a second*
> aSnd      poscil    .2, kFreq, giWave
>            outs      aSnd, aSnd
>    endin
> 
> 
> i 1 0 5
> i 2 6 5
> 
> 
>
> Ok, so as usual i'm completely clueless how things work in csound and feel
> no shame in posting these pesky questions (i know i should).
>
> What i think i understand is that we create an empty table (with zeros),
> then with phasor as indexer for the points in the table, and aFreq as a
> source for information that we write into those points, we fill the table.
> After that i have no idea how the phasor actually browses the different
> points in the table and how the oscilator reads them. I tried changing the
> 1/5000 values (actually the original one was 1/5) and got various results
> where the pitch changed, the content of the sound changed and from what i
> understand, that if the oscilators frequency value is higher than the
> phasors, it will not read the whole table. So i don't really understand how
> the whole things works behind the hood and why.
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/Questions-about-phasor-reading-writing-tables-etc-tp5734470.html
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>
>
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>


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Yes, it's the "EXAMPLE 03D08_RecPlay_ak_signals.csd ". I Changed the phasor
and oscilator frequency value from 1/5 to 1/5000 when i was experimenting
with it. 



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jpff wrote
> An explicit seed gives repeatable results a seed from the clock however
> gives different sequences  
> (strictly from a different place in the sequence).  Read the manual  
> for seed.

Repeatable in what way? Now that i think about it, some time ago, when i
played with the random opcode, my score would generate the same numbers
every time i would start it, but in this case it's always different. (i read
the section about seed in the manual, but it's very brief and doesn't tell
much to a novice).




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It’s different because of the use of “seed”.

http://csounds.com/manual/html/random.html

========================
Dr Victor Lazzarini
Senior Lecturer
NUI Maynooth, Ireland
victor dot lazzarini at nuim dot ie




On 20 Apr 2014, at 19:55, Askwazzup  wrote:

> jpff wrote
>> An explicit seed gives repeatable results a seed from the clock however
>> gives different sequences  
>> (strictly from a different place in the sequence).  Read the manual  
>> for seed.
> 
> Repeatable in what way? Now that i think about it, some time ago, when i
> played with the random opcode, my score would generate the same numbers
> every time i would start it, but in this case it's always different. (i read
> the section about seed in the manual, but it's very brief and doesn't tell
> much to a novice).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/Questions-about-phasor-reading-writing-tables-etc-tp5734470p5734481.html
> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
> 
> Send bugs reports to
>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
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> 
> 
> 



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Ah yes, now i see, but then the description is pretty confusing with the
whole "predictable results" in the description.



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sorry, but i do not agree. the manual (reference) states 
(http://www.csounds.com/manual/html/seed.html):
"Use of seed will provide predictable results from an orchestra using 
with random generators, when required from multiple performances.
When specifying a seed value, ival should be an integer between 0 and 
2^32. If ival = 0, the value of ival will be derived from the system 
clock. "

in other words: whenever you set the global seed to a value except 0, 
you will get the same random values from an opcode like random, randomi 
etc. it will still "look like random", but because the 
pseudo-random-generator always starts at the same value (seed), the 
sequence of pseudo-random numbers is always the same. this is meant by 
"will provide predictable results".

only when you set seed 0, you will seed from the current clock, so it's 
very unlikely that you get the same seed when running csound twice.

	joachim



Am 20.04.2014 21:07, schrieb Askwazzup:
> Ah yes, now i see, but then the description is pretty confusing with the
> whole "predictable results" in the description.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/Questions-about-phasor-reading-writing-tables-etc-tp5734470p5734483.html
> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> Send bugs reports to
>          https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
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>
>
>


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Starting from the top:

<------------------------- *why kr cycle and not audio cycle?*

Because this table is used to hold k-rate data, not audio data.

<-------------- *why do we need partials for the aSnd?*

Why not? Sounds more interesting than a single sine wave..

<------------------------------------------ *how does it work and what
does "provide predictable results from an orchestra" mean?*

I think John just explained this...

<------------------------------------- *how does the phasor work, how
does it index different table values, how do i know what frequency to
use ?*

A phasor produces a signal that moves from 0 to 1 in a specified
period.  If the frequency is 1 it will do this once every second. The
values it produces can be used to index samples from a table. You'll
notice that the imode parameter of the table opcodes used are 1. This
means that Csound will normalise the table length to 1 meaning the
index of the first sample is 0

a1 tab 0, 1, 1

a1 = the first sample in the table

a1 tab 1, 1, 1

a1 is now the last sample in the table

a1 tab .5, 1, 1

a1 is now the middle-most sample

If you don't set imode to 1 you need to specify the actual sample
number. And this means you need to know exactly how many samples are
contained in the table. If you don't set imode=1, then you need to
multiply the phasor output by the number of sample in the table. If
the table has 100,000 sample you would need to do this

aIndx phasor iFreq
a1 tab aIndex*100000, 1

Bottom line here is it's easier to set imode to be 1 :) With regards
to frequency..
If your table contains a 1 second sample that was recorded at 44.1kz,
then you need to set your phasor frequency to 1. That would insure
that you read 44100 samples every second(phasor will go from 0-1 once
a second) which is the same rate the sample was recorded at. Now if
you have a 2 second sound you obvioulsy need to change the frequency.
In this case it becomes 1/(ftlen/sr) where ftlen is the length of the
table in samples. So it if the table length is now 88200(two seconds)
the frequency of the phasor needs to be 1/2 instead of 1. If you use
1/(ftlen(tableNUmber)/sr) you can't go wrong:

ifTableNumber = 4; FUNCTION TABLE 4
a1 phasor 1/(ftlen(ifTableNumber)/sr)

tablew    aFreq, aindx, giControl, 1;<----------------- *why do we use
aFreq and not aSnd? Do we only write frequency information?*

Yes. This example shows how to write k-rate data to a table. So in
this example random frequencies are being written to function table 1.
If you passed aSnd to the table you would record the actual sound
being produced by the oscillator and not the frequency as it changes
over time.

kFreq     poscil    1, 1/5000, giControl;<----------------------- *how
does the frequency work, does it scan 1/5000 points of the table in a
second*

The reason this example uses 5*kr is so that -5* seconds of k-rate
samples will be recorded. kr represents the number of k cycles every
second so multiplying it by 5 will gives use 5 second of k-rate
values.

Here's a simple example of playing a soundfile back using a phasor.
Just make sure the sound file is in the same directory as the .csd
file:



-odac


sr = 44100
kr = 4410
ksmps = 10
nchnls = 1
0dbfs = 1

instr 1
iTableLength = ftlen(1)
andx phasor 1/(iTableLength/sr)
a1 tab andx, 1, 1
outs a1, a1
endin



f 1 0 0 1 "your_soundfile.wav" 0 4 0
i1 0 100


You can try changing the frequency of the phasor to see how it affects
the playback of the same. Good luck!

p.s. you WILL get predictable results from the random number
generators if you DON'T seed them. If you seed them you will get
different results every time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_seed


* afaik the minus is used because the table is not power-of-sized..


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Thank you rory, that was a work of art, the only part that is a bit confusing
is:

"ifTableNumber = 4; FUNCTION TABLE 4
a1 phasor 1/(ftlen(ifTableNumber)/sr)"

My table length is 6891, so if i divide it by 44100 i get 1/0.5 = 2 which is
half a cycle, instead of 0.5, which would indicate 2 cycles?

Also, i tried out using the lfo opcode instead of phasor. It kind of works
it seems, at least i can capture a part of the information in a backward
way, but i had to use 1/50 for the oscilator while 1/5 for the lfo and
multiply the poscil frequency by 8. Though the artifacts are even more
interesting.





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>My table length is 6891, so if i divide it by 44100 i get 1/0.5 = 2

If I divide 6891 by 44100 I get 0.156258503? Oh wait, I see what you
did. You need to divide by the number of samples, not the time in
seconds!

On 20 April 2014 22:21, Askwazzup  wrote:
> Thank you rory, that was a work of art, the only part that is a bit confusing
> is:
>
> "ifTableNumber = 4; FUNCTION TABLE 4
> a1 phasor 1/(ftlen(ifTableNumber)/sr)"
>
> My table length is 6891, so if i divide it by 44100 i get 1/0.5 = 2 which is
> half a cycle, instead of 0.5, which would indicate 2 cycles?
>
> Also, i tried out using the lfo opcode instead of phasor. It kind of works
> it seems, at least i can capture a part of the information in a backward
> way, but i had to use 1/50 for the oscilator while 1/5 for the lfo and
> multiply the poscil frequency by 8. Though the artifacts are even more
> interesting.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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>
>
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Oh shoot, i meant 0.156258503. But then, why is printf... oh nevermind. So i
did what you said 

kindx     phasor    1/(ftlen(giControl)/sr)

and then 

kFreq     poscil    1, 1/(ftlen(giControl)/sr), giControl
aSnd      poscil    .2, kFreq, giWave; play it
          outs      aSnd, aSnd

It plays the same sample, but with strange artifacts in the beginning.



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Without the full code I'm not sure what you are doing. You reference:

kindx     phasor    1/(ftlen(giControl)/sr)

But you don't use kindx anywhere in this code?

kFreq     poscil    1, 1/(ftlen(giControl)/sr), giControl
aSnd      poscil    .2, kFreq, giWave; play it
          outs      aSnd, aSnd


On 20 April 2014 22:43, Askwazzup  wrote:
> Oh shoot, i meant 0.156258503. But then, why is printf... oh nevermind. So i
> did what you said
>
> kindx     phasor    1/(ftlen(giControl)/sr)
>
> and then
>
> kFreq     poscil    1, 1/(ftlen(giControl)/sr), giControl
> aSnd      poscil    .2, kFreq, giWave; play it
>           outs      aSnd, aSnd
>
> It plays the same sample, but with strange artifacts in the beginning.
>
>
>
> --
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>
>
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>


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It's the same example in the top, i just used the original example from the
floss manual, which has kindx instead of aindx



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Do you get the same results if you use oscil instead of poscil? Sorry,
it's getting late here and (un)fortunately for me people keep pouring
me more wine :) Arggh!!

On 20 April 2014 22:52, Askwazzup  wrote:
> It's the same example in the top, i just used the original example from the
> floss manual, which has kindx instead of aindx
>
>
>
> --
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>
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Ah, oscil does the trick it seems. I have learned ALOT since .. 8pm.. oh
hell, time flies when i'm having fun . Almost feels like private tutelage.


sorry, but i do not agree. the manual (reference) states 
(http://www.csounds.com/manual/html/seed.html):
joachim-3 wrote
> sorry, but i do not agree. the manual (reference) states 
> (http://www.csounds.com/manual/html/seed.html):
> "Use of seed will provide predictable results from an orchestra using 
> with random generators, when required from multiple performances.
> When specifying a seed value, ival should be an integer between 0 and 
> 2^32. If ival = 0, the value of ival will be derived from the system 
> clock. "
> 
> in other words: whenever you set the global seed to a value except 0, 
> you will get the same random values from an opcode like random, randomi 
> etc. it will still "look like random", but because the 
> pseudo-random-generator always starts at the same value (seed), the 
> sequence of pseudo-random numbers is always the same. this is meant by 
> "will provide predictable results".
> 
> only when you set seed 0, you will seed from the current clock, so it's 
> very unlikely that you get the same seed when running csound twice.

Well it's hard for me to judge, since i'm not sure if i fall in the usual
csound demographic, as i'm neither a programmer, neither a muscian/composer
(aspiring to be all of those some day), neither an engineer, neither a
student and am self taught. But that seems confusing to me (don't know about
others) and a short comment by Victor - "It’s different because of the use
of “seed”. " Made it clear as day.

I have a dream, that if some day i will write a manual, before every verbose
technical section, i will put a "for dummies" comment that sums it up in a
few simple, hand holding sentences, as this seems to always work for me -
especially for the past half year while learning linux. It seems every time
i read blocks and blocks of texts and feel confused, a simple youtube
comment with 5 words does it for me and then i can actually start reading
those blocks of texts 






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Just be hearent.

jpff@cs.bath.ac.uk wrote:
>
> Quoting Rory Walsh :
>
>> Do you get the same results if you use oscil instead of poscil? Sorry,
>> it's getting late here and (un)fortunately for me people keep pouring
>> me more wine :) Arggh!!
>>
>
> I am drinking calvados here -- not ure I can be coherent.....
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to
> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
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> csound"
>
>
>



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Welcome to Csound :) And apart from tutelage on the intricacies of
DSP, you also get good recommendations on apple based brandy!

On 20 April 2014 23:24, Askwazzup  wrote:
> Ah, oscil does the trick it seems. I have learned ALOT since .. 8pm.. oh
> hell, time flies when i'm having fun . Almost feels like private tutelage.
>
>
> sorry, but i do not agree. the manual (reference) states
> (http://www.csounds.com/manual/html/seed.html):
> joachim-3 wrote
>> sorry, but i do not agree. the manual (reference) states
>> (http://www.csounds.com/manual/html/seed.html):
>> "Use of seed will provide predictable results from an orchestra using
>> with random generators, when required from multiple performances.
>> When specifying a seed value, ival should be an integer between 0 and
>> 2^32. If ival = 0, the value of ival will be derived from the system
>> clock. "
>>
>> in other words: whenever you set the global seed to a value except 0,
>> you will get the same random values from an opcode like random, randomi
>> etc. it will still "look like random", but because the
>> pseudo-random-generator always starts at the same value (seed), the
>> sequence of pseudo-random numbers is always the same. this is meant by
>> "will provide predictable results".
>>
>> only when you set seed 0, you will seed from the current clock, so it's
>> very unlikely that you get the same seed when running csound twice.
>
> Well it's hard for me to judge, since i'm not sure if i fall in the usual
> csound demographic, as i'm neither a programmer, neither a muscian/composer
> (aspiring to be all of those some day), neither an engineer, neither a
> student and am self taught. But that seems confusing to me (don't know about
> others) and a short comment by Victor - "It's different because of the use
> of "seed". " Made it clear as day.
>
> I have a dream, that if some day i will write a manual, before every verbose
> technical section, i will put a "for dummies" comment that sums it up in a
> few simple, hand holding sentences, as this seems to always work for me -
> especially for the past half year while learning linux. It seems every time
> i read blocks and blocks of texts and feel confused, a simple youtube
> comment with 5 words does it for me and then i can actually start reading
> those blocks of texts
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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rory walsh wrote
> Welcome to Csound :) And apart from tutelage on the intricacies of
> DSP, you also get good recommendations on 
*
> apple based brandy
*
> !

That would be too good, alas it's too late for that kind of advice, as i
don't drink anymore (maybe a glass of wine), or use any other substances.
These damn things seem to play with my nervous system 




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> These damn things seem to play with my nervous system

In that case are you sure you want to learn Csound ;)


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rory walsh wrote
>> These damn things seem to play with my nervous system
> 
> In that case are you sure you want to learn Csound ;)

He, he, masochism seems to run in my blood. Yes! by any means. Not only
that, i want to write out the music i have in my head in csound score
section, in Hz, in various tunings, complicated poly-rhythms and harmonies.
If i survive that, i can survive anything 



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Excellent. That's we like to hear! Welcome on board.