Hi everyone, i've been revising the design of a MaxForLive/Csound device i
built earlier this year and have been experiencing intermittent errors over
the past couple days! Im trying to locate the source(s) of the problem so i
can keep working on the device. I've listed the main issues I'm having , if
any of these sound familiar or anybody has any idea what might be causing
them please let me know.

PS I'm running Ableton 9.1.4 on Max 6.1.8 with the latest version of Csound
and the csound~ external on Os X 10.9.4

1) Im having problems sometimes changing the @io arguments in the csound~,
changing them from say 2 to 4 will often either (a crash the system or (b if
do manage to make a save, i cannot reopen the patch.

2) Sometimes I get to a point where the patch is working, then the next day
I'll open it and if i make any changes (ie even adding an empty message box)
at all, and save then I again experience crashing

3) Sometimes midi input to the csound~ doesn't work, even though i haven't
changed any of the connections to the object. It just doesn't see midi input
at all.

4) Most strangely, there are times when i'll load the device, and it appears
to half compile the orchestra, i get some of the compilation text but even
hardcoded function tables are not found then about 10 minutes later i might
come back and it will appear that the rest of the compilation has taken
place and now everything is working again? You can see this happening in the
readout below, after a while of rejecting midi input and saying ftable
cannot be found, it just suddenly compiles the rest of the function tables
and can begin sound output.

Any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated! 




Any ideas what might be causing this stuff? Im gathering previous versions
of max and Ableton so i can roll back to the point which was sometime in
April/May when i was developing last, so as to rule out issue



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ouch, sounds like an ugly one,
I dont have any very specific clues,
but are you able to simplify the patch and/or the csd to the point
where it behaves nicely?

For the interrupted/delayed compilation/init step, someone with more
knowledge of the Csound internals might be able to answer how it is
possible that this could happen.

Oeyind

2014-09-10 12:04 GMT+02:00 Dave Mooney :
> Hi everyone, i've been revising the design of a MaxForLive/Csound device i
> built earlier this year and have been experiencing intermittent errors over
> the past couple days! Im trying to locate the source(s) of the problem so i
> can keep working on the device. I've listed the main issues I'm having , if
> any of these sound familiar or anybody has any idea what might be causing
> them please let me know.
>
> PS I'm running Ableton 9.1.4 on Max 6.1.8 with the latest version of Csound
> and the csound~ external on Os X 10.9.4
>
> 1) Im having problems sometimes changing the @io arguments in the csound~,
> changing them from say 2 to 4 will often either (a crash the system or (b if
> do manage to make a save, i cannot reopen the patch.
>
> 2) Sometimes I get to a point where the patch is working, then the next day
> I'll open it and if i make any changes (ie even adding an empty message box)
> at all, and save then I again experience crashing
>
> 3) Sometimes midi input to the csound~ doesn't work, even though i haven't
> changed any of the connections to the object. It just doesn't see midi input
> at all.
>
> 4) Most strangely, there are times when i'll load the device, and it appears
> to half compile the orchestra, i get some of the compilation text but even
> hardcoded function tables are not found then about 10 minutes later i might
> come back and it will appear that the rest of the compilation has taken
> place and now everything is working again? You can see this happening in the
> readout below, after a while of rejecting midi input and saying ftable
> cannot be found, it just suddenly compiles the rest of the function tables
> and can begin sound output.
>
> Any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated!
>
>
>
>
> Any ideas what might be causing this stuff? Im gathering previous versions
> of max and Ableton so i can roll back to the point which was sometime in
> April/May when i was developing last, so as to rule out issue
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/Csound-external-Ableton-Max-Issues-tp5737415.html
> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>



-- 

Oeyvind Brandtsegg
Professor of Music Technology
NTNU
7491 Trondheim
Norway
Cell: +47 92 203 205

http://flyndresang.no/
http://www.partikkelaudio.com/
http://soundcloud.com/brandtsegg
http://soundcloud.com/t-emp

Heya Oeyvind, thanks for your response! I tried this already unfortunately; I
created a new MaxForLive device copied in the example code from the csound~
external and ended up with the same results. Specifically i couldn't save
changes changes to the device and it was crashing a lot. I had thought to
completely rebuild my device bit by bit, but as I'm having problem with even
the basic .csd patches I'm not sure the answer is just in my code. 

Oddly yesterday also i was getting a messsage asking me to send a csound
reset message as csound was already running. I'm wondering if csound is not
starting and stopping cleanly on my system for some reason it might explain
the behaviour but i'm clutching here. Any other ideas?



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The biggest problem here is that none of the devs use csound~ and as
far as I know they don't have copies of Live or Max either. (Steven's
demo license just expired). This makes dealing with these issues very
tricky to sort out. I managed to build a version of csound~ yesterday
for Windows that fixed a few windows problems, but what you describe
sounds like a different problem altogether. Does your M4L device have
a very feature rich GUI? If not then perhaps you could try porting it
to Cabbage, which would also allow you to run your instruments in
multiple hosts, as a standalone, and as an Android apk :)

Rory.


p.s. Oeyvind and I just spent the best part of a month trying to get
around some Csound and Ableton Live issues. In the end it was nothing
to do with Csound. It was down to whatever routines Live uses to load
plugins. If this is the case here then a quick fix is highly unlikely.

On 10 September 2014 13:03, Dave Mooney  wrote:
> Heya Oeyvind, thanks for your response! I tried this already unfortunately; I
> created a new MaxForLive device copied in the example code from the csound~
> external and ended up with the same results. Specifically i couldn't save
> changes changes to the device and it was crashing a lot. I had thought to
> completely rebuild my device bit by bit, but as I'm having problem with even
> the basic .csd patches I'm not sure the answer is just in my code.
>
> Oddly yesterday also i was getting a messsage asking me to send a csound
> reset message as csound was already running. I'm wondering if csound is not
> starting and stopping cleanly on my system for some reason it might explain
> the behaviour but i'm clutching here. Any other ideas?
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/Csound-external-Ableton-Max-Issues-tp5737415p5737419.html
> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>

To note, I had done the csound~ porting to csound6, modifying things
to use work with the newer 64-bit Max functions.  I last really looked
at that a while ago, and have only worked on updates as users report
issues.  That said, it could very well be that I had only tested with
the demo patches available and there are parts of csound~ that I had
not tested.

I only really have access now to test with the Max Runtime.  I can do
a little testing there, but really someone with a full max license
would be able to do more testing.

As Rory mentioned, having an example CSD and .maxpat to test with
steps to reproduce would aid greatly in getting any bugs fixed.

On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 12:30 PM, Rory Walsh  wrote:
> The biggest problem here is that none of the devs use csound~ and as
> far as I know they don't have copies of Live or Max either. (Steven's
> demo license just expired). This makes dealing with these issues very
> tricky to sort out. I managed to build a version of csound~ yesterday
> for Windows that fixed a few windows problems, but what you describe
> sounds like a different problem altogether. Does your M4L device have
> a very feature rich GUI? If not then perhaps you could try porting it
> to Cabbage, which would also allow you to run your instruments in
> multiple hosts, as a standalone, and as an Android apk :)
>
> Rory.
>
>
> p.s. Oeyvind and I just spent the best part of a month trying to get
> around some Csound and Ableton Live issues. In the end it was nothing
> to do with Csound. It was down to whatever routines Live uses to load
> plugins. If this is the case here then a quick fix is highly unlikely.
>
> On 10 September 2014 13:03, Dave Mooney  wrote:
>> Heya Oeyvind, thanks for your response! I tried this already unfortunately; I
>> created a new MaxForLive device copied in the example code from the csound~
>> external and ended up with the same results. Specifically i couldn't save
>> changes changes to the device and it was crashing a lot. I had thought to
>> completely rebuild my device bit by bit, but as I'm having problem with even
>> the basic .csd patches I'm not sure the answer is just in my code.
>>
>> Oddly yesterday also i was getting a messsage asking me to send a csound
>> reset message as csound was already running. I'm wondering if csound is not
>> starting and stopping cleanly on my system for some reason it might explain
>> the behaviour but i'm clutching here. Any other ideas?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/Csound-external-Ableton-Max-Issues-tp5737415p5737419.html
>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to
>>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>

As a first start, you could send us the device/patch/csd that you have
problems with.
We can see what happens when we try to run.

Also, I did not mean that you should strip down your patch to find
problems in *your* programming, In the process of stripping down, you
will most likely at some point find that it works without problems.
Then you know what opcode/max-external/other that triggers the
problem.
Then try adding that problem-trigger thing to confirm that the problem reappear.
Then, try removing something *else*, and keep removing things (keeping
the problem-trigger in there), until perhaps it starts working nicely
again. That might reveal a specific combination of
opcodes/externals/things that triggers a problem.
Keep notes of everything you change, otherwise you will most probably
get lost, and not know what made it work. This is a repetitive task so
you will get tired and lose focus. Meticulous notes helps keep track
when you get tired.
You *might* also discover errors in your programming along the way (at
least this happens a lot for me), but the target is always to strip
down until it starts working. I know it sounds very hacky, and also
tiresome work, but for complex patches using several different
technologies (Live/Max/Csound/+anything else you might have loaded)
this is sometimes the easiest way.  ...Or setting up a real debugging
environment, which others probably know more about than me.

best
Oeyvind

2014-09-10 13:36 GMT+02:00 Steven Yi :
> To note, I had done the csound~ porting to csound6, modifying things
> to use work with the newer 64-bit Max functions.  I last really looked
> at that a while ago, and have only worked on updates as users report
> issues.  That said, it could very well be that I had only tested with
> the demo patches available and there are parts of csound~ that I had
> not tested.
>
> I only really have access now to test with the Max Runtime.  I can do
> a little testing there, but really someone with a full max license
> would be able to do more testing.
>
> As Rory mentioned, having an example CSD and .maxpat to test with
> steps to reproduce would aid greatly in getting any bugs fixed.
>
> On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 12:30 PM, Rory Walsh  wrote:
>> The biggest problem here is that none of the devs use csound~ and as
>> far as I know they don't have copies of Live or Max either. (Steven's
>> demo license just expired). This makes dealing with these issues very
>> tricky to sort out. I managed to build a version of csound~ yesterday
>> for Windows that fixed a few windows problems, but what you describe
>> sounds like a different problem altogether. Does your M4L device have
>> a very feature rich GUI? If not then perhaps you could try porting it
>> to Cabbage, which would also allow you to run your instruments in
>> multiple hosts, as a standalone, and as an Android apk :)
>>
>> Rory.
>>
>>
>> p.s. Oeyvind and I just spent the best part of a month trying to get
>> around some Csound and Ableton Live issues. In the end it was nothing
>> to do with Csound. It was down to whatever routines Live uses to load
>> plugins. If this is the case here then a quick fix is highly unlikely.
>>
>> On 10 September 2014 13:03, Dave Mooney  wrote:
>>> Heya Oeyvind, thanks for your response! I tried this already unfortunately; I
>>> created a new MaxForLive device copied in the example code from the csound~
>>> external and ended up with the same results. Specifically i couldn't save
>>> changes changes to the device and it was crashing a lot. I had thought to
>>> completely rebuild my device bit by bit, but as I'm having problem with even
>>> the basic .csd patches I'm not sure the answer is just in my code.
>>>
>>> Oddly yesterday also i was getting a messsage asking me to send a csound
>>> reset message as csound was already running. I'm wondering if csound is not
>>> starting and stopping cleanly on my system for some reason it might explain
>>> the behaviour but i'm clutching here. Any other ideas?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/Csound-external-Ableton-Max-Issues-tp5737415p5737419.html
>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to
>>>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to
>>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>



-- 

Oeyvind Brandtsegg
Professor of Music Technology
NTNU
7491 Trondheim
Norway
Cell: +47 92 203 205

http://flyndresang.no/
http://www.partikkelaudio.com/
http://soundcloud.com/brandtsegg
http://soundcloud.com/t-emp

Might I suggest sending Bernt your device and seeing if it works there for him?

On 10 September 2014 14:39, Bernt Isak Wærstad  wrote:
> Probably won't help you much, but I'm using csound~ on OS X 10.9.4 with Live
> 9.1.4 and Max 6.1.8 without any problems, so there is probably something on
> your systems that are clogging things up and as Øyvind says you probably
> need to strip down and go through everything from scratch (I've been there -
> it's no fun!). You could perhaps start by trying to delete the preference
> files for Max and Live. Helps sometimes :)
>
> Also just tested a simple patch with 64bit version of Live and Max without
> any problems.
>
> On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 2:17 PM, Oeyvind Brandtsegg
>  wrote:
>>
>> As a first start, you could send us the device/patch/csd that you have
>> problems with.
>> We can see what happens when we try to run.
>>
>> Also, I did not mean that you should strip down your patch to find
>> problems in *your* programming, In the process of stripping down, you
>> will most likely at some point find that it works without problems.
>> Then you know what opcode/max-external/other that triggers the
>> problem.
>> Then try adding that problem-trigger thing to confirm that the problem
>> reappear.
>> Then, try removing something *else*, and keep removing things (keeping
>> the problem-trigger in there), until perhaps it starts working nicely
>> again. That might reveal a specific combination of
>> opcodes/externals/things that triggers a problem.
>> Keep notes of everything you change, otherwise you will most probably
>> get lost, and not know what made it work. This is a repetitive task so
>> you will get tired and lose focus. Meticulous notes helps keep track
>> when you get tired.
>> You *might* also discover errors in your programming along the way (at
>> least this happens a lot for me), but the target is always to strip
>> down until it starts working. I know it sounds very hacky, and also
>> tiresome work, but for complex patches using several different
>> technologies (Live/Max/Csound/+anything else you might have loaded)
>> this is sometimes the easiest way.  ...Or setting up a real debugging
>> environment, which others probably know more about than me.
>>
>> best
>> Oeyvind
>>
>> 2014-09-10 13:36 GMT+02:00 Steven Yi :
>> > To note, I had done the csound~ porting to csound6, modifying things
>> > to use work with the newer 64-bit Max functions.  I last really looked
>> > at that a while ago, and have only worked on updates as users report
>> > issues.  That said, it could very well be that I had only tested with
>> > the demo patches available and there are parts of csound~ that I had
>> > not tested.
>> >
>> > I only really have access now to test with the Max Runtime.  I can do
>> > a little testing there, but really someone with a full max license
>> > would be able to do more testing.
>> >
>> > As Rory mentioned, having an example CSD and .maxpat to test with
>> > steps to reproduce would aid greatly in getting any bugs fixed.
>> >
>> > On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 12:30 PM, Rory Walsh  wrote:
>> >> The biggest problem here is that none of the devs use csound~ and as
>> >> far as I know they don't have copies of Live or Max either. (Steven's
>> >> demo license just expired). This makes dealing with these issues very
>> >> tricky to sort out. I managed to build a version of csound~ yesterday
>> >> for Windows that fixed a few windows problems, but what you describe
>> >> sounds like a different problem altogether. Does your M4L device have
>> >> a very feature rich GUI? If not then perhaps you could try porting it
>> >> to Cabbage, which would also allow you to run your instruments in
>> >> multiple hosts, as a standalone, and as an Android apk :)
>> >>
>> >> Rory.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> p.s. Oeyvind and I just spent the best part of a month trying to get
>> >> around some Csound and Ableton Live issues. In the end it was nothing
>> >> to do with Csound. It was down to whatever routines Live uses to load
>> >> plugins. If this is the case here then a quick fix is highly unlikely.
>> >>
>> >> On 10 September 2014 13:03, Dave Mooney 
>> >> wrote:
>> >>> Heya Oeyvind, thanks for your response! I tried this already
>> >>> unfortunately; I
>> >>> created a new MaxForLive device copied in the example code from the
>> >>> csound~
>> >>> external and ended up with the same results. Specifically i couldn't
>> >>> save
>> >>> changes changes to the device and it was crashing a lot. I had thought
>> >>> to
>> >>> completely rebuild my device bit by bit, but as I'm having problem
>> >>> with even
>> >>> the basic .csd patches I'm not sure the answer is just in my code.
>> >>>
>> >>> Oddly yesterday also i was getting a messsage asking me to send a
>> >>> csound
>> >>> reset message as csound was already running. I'm wondering if csound
>> >>> is not
>> >>> starting and stopping cleanly on my system for some reason it might
>> >>> explain
>> >>> the behaviour but i'm clutching here. Any other ideas?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> View this message in context:
>> >>> http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/Csound-external-Ableton-Max-Issues-tp5737415p5737419.html
>> >>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Send bugs reports to
>> >>>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> >>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> >>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>> >>> "unsubscribe csound"
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Send bugs reports to
>> >>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> >> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> >> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>> >> "unsubscribe csound"
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > Send bugs reports to
>> >         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> > To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> > csound"
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Oeyvind Brandtsegg
>> Professor of Music Technology
>> NTNU
>> 7491 Trondheim
>> Norway
>> Cell: +47 92 203 205
>>
>> http://flyndresang.no/
>> http://www.partikkelaudio.com/
>> http://soundcloud.com/brandtsegg
>> http://soundcloud.com/t-emp
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to
>>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Mvh.
>
> Bernt Isak Wærstad
>
>

Hi everybody thanks a million for the advice, Oeyvind/Bernt think your're
right i'll deffo need to strip down the code and rebuild until i have it
consistently working. Bernt as you're running the latest version of Max etc
without incident i would guess it's probably something to do with the
.csd/.amxd files involved.

I played around some more since this morning and seemed to get substantially
different results depending on which version of the .csd was being used. So
i think I'm going to load the most stable .csd and then clear out some of
the GUI coding in Max. If this holds up throughout the Max UI redesign then
the problem is most likely to do with the .csd which i'll address at a later
stage.  I haven't used Cabbage before Rory but i'll check it out; I've been
run into a few of Max/Ableton/Csound conflicts over the past while and an
alternative would be cool. Again thanks a million for the fast responses and
advice, i'll post my results here when I've finished! 

Cheers



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