Hi Chuck,

I think part of the problem here is a kind of 'apples vs 
oranges' issue.  Most of the terminology in traditional theory 
is devoted to understanding the 'functional' relationships of 
the pitches and other structures, relative to Tonal music.  At 
its inception, Western music theory was created by 
musician/philosophers for whom the then relatively new notion of 
counting from 'zero' was unfamiliar and unintuitive...the 
beginning pitch of the scale was the 'first' note you heard. 
Guido and his contemporaries, had they a little more foresight, 
and the benefit of understanding 'Infidel maths', might have 
chosen otherwise.  And of course, the 'error' was passed along, 
and compounded by the slow accretion of amplifications of these 
basic ideas, until we ended up where we are today.  The problem 
wasn't helped by composers who pushed the original system to, 
and then beyond, its limitations.

The fact that we are intelligently having this discussion shows 
me two things..first, that we all understand there is another 
way of viewing the resources of music, and second that we seem 
to be doing okay with the one we inherited, as long as we use it 
for the purpose intended..that being communication with our 
fellow practitioners.  As with most human languages, 
imperfections, idiosyncrasies, and obfuscations are tolerable in 
our musical 'language(s)' as long as intelligible communication 
occurs.  In those cases where it doesn't, ideas such as you 
suggest, and are actually used in some of the contemporary music 
theories, are always there to fall back on, or perhaps 'fall 
forward to' might be more accurate.

Just a side note..I really do enjoy these discussions, even 
though their relevance to csound itself is somewhat tenuous.

Bob Foose


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Great summary of the issues here, I think.

I too find agree with Chuck that the more abstractly intelligent way
of discussing intervallic relationships would, in an ideal world, be
better for it's total consistency and clarity. But, as has been
mentioned, we don't live in an ideal world.

While we are at it: I prefer YYYY-MM-DD to the braindead way my fellow
Americans do it: MM/DD/YY or MM/DD/YYYY. In the grand scheme it's not
important, but I fight my little one man battle everyday with this
one, insisting on filling out dates this way. After all, in *every*
other realm, leftmost digits are the most significant!

AKJ

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 6:18 PM, Robert or Gretchen Foose
 wrote:
> Hi Chuck,
>
> I think part of the problem here is a kind of 'apples vs oranges' issue.
>  Most of the terminology in traditional theory is devoted to understanding
> the 'functional' relationships of the pitches and other structures, relative
> to Tonal music.  At its inception, Western music theory was created by
> musician/philosophers for whom the then relatively new notion of counting
> from 'zero' was unfamiliar and unintuitive...the beginning pitch of the
> scale was the 'first' note you heard. Guido and his contemporaries, had they
> a little more foresight, and the benefit of understanding 'Infidel maths',
> might have chosen otherwise.  And of course, the 'error' was passed along,
> and compounded by the slow accretion of amplifications of these basic ideas,
> until we ended up where we are today.  The problem wasn't helped by
> composers who pushed the original system to, and then beyond, its
> limitations.
>
> The fact that we are intelligently having this discussion shows me two
> things..first, that we all understand there is another way of viewing the
> resources of music, and second that we seem to be doing okay with the one we
> inherited, as long as we use it for the purpose intended..that being
> communication with our fellow practitioners.  As with most human languages,
> imperfections, idiosyncrasies, and obfuscations are tolerable in our musical
> 'language(s)' as long as intelligible communication occurs.  In those cases
> where it doesn't, ideas such as you suggest, and are actually used in some
> of the contemporary music theories, are always there to fall back on, or
> perhaps 'fall forward to' might be more accurate.
>
> Just a side note..I really do enjoy these discussions, even though their
> relevance to csound itself is somewhat tenuous.
>
> Bob Foose
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>
>



-- 
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org


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I believe this one has to do with relevance, though; when you're
telling a story, what part of the date generally affects the setting
the most? The month. There are exceptions, but generally that sets the
season. The particular date and the year are often not even necessary.
"In April" or "last June". Sometimes people use just the year, but
maybe there's some significance to the month being first in most
circumstances.
Once, after I moved to Europe in September, 2007, my wife brought me a
cup of yogurt, and looking at the date, I saw "09/10/2007". I started
to chastise her for not looking at the date, when she pointed out that
meant October!

-Chuckk


On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 12:27 AM, Aaron Krister Johnson
 wrote:
> Great summary of the issues here, I think.
>
> I too find agree with Chuck that the more abstractly intelligent way
> of discussing intervallic relationships would, in an ideal world, be
> better for it's total consistency and clarity. But, as has been
> mentioned, we don't live in an ideal world.
>
> While we are at it: I prefer YYYY-MM-DD to the braindead way my fellow
> Americans do it: MM/DD/YY or MM/DD/YYYY. In the grand scheme it's not
> important, but I fight my little one man battle everyday with this
> one, insisting on filling out dates this way. After all, in *every*
> other realm, leftmost digits are the most significant!
>
> AKJ
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 6:18 PM, Robert or Gretchen Foose
>  wrote:
>> Hi Chuck,
>>
>> I think part of the problem here is a kind of 'apples vs oranges' issue.
>>  Most of the terminology in traditional theory is devoted to understanding
>> the 'functional' relationships of the pitches and other structures, relative
>> to Tonal music.  At its inception, Western music theory was created by
>> musician/philosophers for whom the then relatively new notion of counting
>> from 'zero' was unfamiliar and unintuitive...the beginning pitch of the
>> scale was the 'first' note you heard. Guido and his contemporaries, had they
>> a little more foresight, and the benefit of understanding 'Infidel maths',
>> might have chosen otherwise.  And of course, the 'error' was passed along,
>> and compounded by the slow accretion of amplifications of these basic ideas,
>> until we ended up where we are today.  The problem wasn't helped by
>> composers who pushed the original system to, and then beyond, its
>> limitations.
>>
>> The fact that we are intelligently having this discussion shows me two
>> things..first, that we all understand there is another way of viewing the
>> resources of music, and second that we seem to be doing okay with the one we
>> inherited, as long as we use it for the purpose intended..that being
>> communication with our fellow practitioners.  As with most human languages,
>> imperfections, idiosyncrasies, and obfuscations are tolerable in our musical
>> 'language(s)' as long as intelligible communication occurs.  In those cases
>> where it doesn't, ideas such as you suggest, and are actually used in some
>> of the contemporary music theories, are always there to fall back on, or
>> perhaps 'fall forward to' might be more accurate.
>>
>> Just a side note..I really do enjoy these discussions, even though their
>> relevance to csound itself is somewhat tenuous.
>>
>> Bob Foose
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.untwelve.org
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>
>



-- 
http://www.badmuthahubbard.com


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Well it's not just about letting it out; maybe it's also about
conveying the most relevant information first. But this is just a
random thought I had on the subject, who knows why it really got that
way.

-Chuckk


On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 7:48 PM, Aaron Krister Johnson
 wrote:
> This is true, but I would simply say if the year is not important leave it
> out from the left, not from the right!
>
> AKJ
>
> On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 11:33 PM, Chuckk Hubbard 
> wrote:
>>
>> I believe this one has to do with relevance, though; when you're
>> telling a story, what part of the date generally affects the setting
>> the most? The month. There are exceptions, but generally that sets the
>> season. The particular date and the year are often not even necessary.
>> "In April" or "last June". Sometimes people use just the year, but
>> maybe there's some significance to the month being first in most
>> circumstances.
>> Once, after I moved to Europe in September, 2007, my wife brought me a
>> cup of yogurt, and looking at the date, I saw "09/10/2007". I started
>> to chastise her for not looking at the date, when she pointed out that
>> meant October!
>>
>> -Chuckk
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 12:27 AM, Aaron Krister Johnson
>>  wrote:
>> > Great summary of the issues here, I think.
>> >
>> > I too find agree with Chuck that the more abstractly intelligent way
>> > of discussing intervallic relationships would, in an ideal world, be
>> > better for it's total consistency and clarity. But, as has been
>> > mentioned, we don't live in an ideal world.
>> >
>> > While we are at it: I prefer YYYY-MM-DD to the braindead way my fellow
>> > Americans do it: MM/DD/YY or MM/DD/YYYY. In the grand scheme it's not
>> > important, but I fight my little one man battle everyday with this
>> > one, insisting on filling out dates this way. After all, in *every*
>> > other realm, leftmost digits are the most significant!
>> >
>> > AKJ
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 6:18 PM, Robert or Gretchen Foose
>> >  wrote:
>> >> Hi Chuck,
>> >>
>> >> I think part of the problem here is a kind of 'apples vs oranges'
>> >> issue.
>> >>  Most of the terminology in traditional theory is devoted to
>> >> understanding
>> >> the 'functional' relationships of the pitches and other structures,
>> >> relative
>> >> to Tonal music.  At its inception, Western music theory was created by
>> >> musician/philosophers for whom the then relatively new notion of
>> >> counting
>> >> from 'zero' was unfamiliar and unintuitive...the beginning pitch of the
>> >> scale was the 'first' note you heard. Guido and his contemporaries, had
>> >> they
>> >> a little more foresight, and the benefit of understanding 'Infidel
>> >> maths',
>> >> might have chosen otherwise.  And of course, the 'error' was passed
>> >> along,
>> >> and compounded by the slow accretion of amplifications of these basic
>> >> ideas,
>> >> until we ended up where we are today.  The problem wasn't helped by
>> >> composers who pushed the original system to, and then beyond, its
>> >> limitations.
>> >>
>> >> The fact that we are intelligently having this discussion shows me two
>> >> things..first, that we all understand there is another way of viewing
>> >> the
>> >> resources of music, and second that we seem to be doing okay with the
>> >> one we
>> >> inherited, as long as we use it for the purpose intended..that being
>> >> communication with our fellow practitioners.  As with most human
>> >> languages,
>> >> imperfections, idiosyncrasies, and obfuscations are tolerable in our
>> >> musical
>> >> 'language(s)' as long as intelligible communication occurs.  In those
>> >> cases
>> >> where it doesn't, ideas such as you suggest, and are actually used in
>> >> some
>> >> of the contemporary music theories, are always there to fall back on,
>> >> or
>> >> perhaps 'fall forward to' might be more accurate.
>> >>
>> >> Just a side note..I really do enjoy these discussions, even though
>> >> their
>> >> relevance to csound itself is somewhat tenuous.
>> >>
>> >> Bob Foose
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>> >>           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> >> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> >> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>> >> "unsubscribe
>> >> csound"
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Aaron Krister Johnson
>> > http://www.akjmusic.com
>> > http://www.untwelve.org
>> >
>> >
>> > Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>> >            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> > To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> > csound"
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.badmuthahubbard.com
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.untwelve.org
>
>



-- 
http://www.badmuthahubbard.com


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