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Re: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?

Date2018-11-21 21:44
FromPartev Barr Sarkissian
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?

Zipper noise, maybe? If it happens only when using the wah.
See that on digital pots from time to time, using when a filter cap fails.
Maybe the virtual version of that?


-PBS



--- oyvind.brandtsegg@NTNU.NO wrote:

From: Oeyvind Brandtsegg <oyvind.brandtsegg@NTNU.NO>
To: CSOUND@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 20:29:55 +0100

I took a look at the file, and see that there is a significant DC offset building up, together with the ringing sound.
My best guess is that perhaps your parameter setting for a filter i outside the expected range so that it creates these odd artifacts.

If the artifact is only happening when you are using a specific filter, then try to make a csd with only that part of the code and see if it has the same artifact.

Den ons. 21. nov. 2018 kl. 13:40 skrev fauveboy <joel.ramsbottom@hotmail.co.uk>:
thanks Ill try reduce the problem and load it again in the mean time this is
the audio with the artifact: bass.wav
<http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/file/t339654/bass.wav





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Date2018-11-28 16:54
Fromfauveboy
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
I've minimised the code just the WahWahDbug.csd and the audio file to
playback. The same noise is occurring, can someone help me rid of it? ...Im
no sure how to correct the DC offset if thats whats causing the problem?


808_3.wav   

WahWahDBug.csd
  








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Date2018-11-28 17:30
Fromjpff
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
There re two ocodes to deal with DC offset, called dcblock and dcblock2

On Wed, 28 Nov 2018, fauveboy wrote:

> I've minimised the code just the WahWahDbug.csd and the audio file to
> playback. The same noise is occurring, can someone help me rid of it? ...Im
> no sure how to correct the DC offset if thats whats causing the problem?
>
>
> 808_3.wav 
>
> WahWahDBug.csd
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/Csound-General-f1093014.html
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Date2018-11-28 17:52
Fromfauveboy
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
Please may you demonstrate? I've put the audio in audacity and I can't see
the DC offset so Im not sure what that means?
I've simply played the audio through dcblock  WahWahDBug.csd
  
808_3.wav   

but it hasn't improved the sound?



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Date2018-11-28 18:08
Fromjpff
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
At present for unknown reasons I am not abe to play any sounds, but I 
looked at the output of your WAhWah csd, nd there is no DC problem. 
Actually I cannot work out what your problem is!  In Audcty I can analyse 
the sound and I see a major peak ar 54Hz (-5dB) anfd lesser peaks at 114Hz 
(-37dB), 179Hz (-247dB) and 308Hz (-85dB).  Thee are very small signals at 
496 (-91dB) and 430z (-88dB).  I see no sign of a high pitch.  The numbers 
are approximate....

What frequency?  Does it change if you change ksmps?




On Wed, 28 Nov 2018, fauveboy wrote:

> Please may you demonstrate? I've put the audio in audacity and I can't see
> the DC offset so Im not sure what that means?
> I've simply played the audio through dcblock  WahWahDBug.csd
> 
> 808_3.wav 
>
> but it hasn't improved the sound?
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/Csound-General-f1093014.html
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Date2018-11-28 18:32
Fromfauveboy
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
Im not sure what the frequency is?
it does change if you change the ksmps?

so you are getting the same artefact i think?




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Date2018-11-28 19:05
FromOeyvind Brandtsegg
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
Actually, I think the artifact comes from the fast changing cotoff frequency for the low pass filter on line 41.
If you listen to the signal before this filter (out a1), then the artifact is not there, 
but listening to the output of this filter (out afilt) has the high pitched ringing. 
The artifact as it looks from here, consists of two peaks close to 4.5 kHz and another two close to 8.7 kHz.

also, if I use a static value for klopass (the cutoff frequency for butterlp), the sound is clean.



Den ons. 28. nov. 2018 kl. 19:32 skrev fauveboy <joel.ramsbottom@hotmail.co.uk>:
Im not sure what the frequency is?
it does change if you change the ksmps?

so you are getting the same artefact i think?




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Date2018-11-28 19:13
FromOeyvind Brandtsegg
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
I can reproduce the artifact with this csd, further simplified. (pasted below).
It seems to vary if ksmps is changed, and it is gone when ksmps = 1.
Is it a bug in butterlp?

<CsoundSynthesizer>
<CsOptions>
</CsOptions>
<CsInstruments>

sr =44100
ksmps = 10
nchnls = 1
0dbfs = 1

instr 1
a1 poscil 0.5, 60
klfo oscil 0.5, 6
klopass = ((klfo+0.5)*100)+70
afilt butterlp a1, klopass
out afilt
endin 

</CsInstruments>
<CsScore>
i1 0 4
</CsScore>
</CsoundSynthesizer>


Den ons. 28. nov. 2018 kl. 20:05 skrev Oeyvind Brandtsegg <oyvind.brandtsegg@ntnu.no>:
Actually, I think the artifact comes from the fast changing cotoff frequency for the low pass filter on line 41.
If you listen to the signal before this filter (out a1), then the artifact is not there, 
but listening to the output of this filter (out afilt) has the high pitched ringing. 
The artifact as it looks from here, consists of two peaks close to 4.5 kHz and another two close to 8.7 kHz.

also, if I use a static value for klopass (the cutoff frequency for butterlp), the sound is clean.



Den ons. 28. nov. 2018 kl. 19:32 skrev fauveboy <joel.ramsbottom@hotmail.co.uk>:
Im not sure what the frequency is?
it does change if you change the ksmps?

so you are getting the same artefact i think?




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Date2018-11-28 19:15
Fromfauveboy
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
what does this mean I should do, because If i use a static value it gets rid
of the wahwahing ?



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Date2018-11-28 19:19
FromOeyvind Brandtsegg
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
While the error is being investigated, you can try using another filter.
For example lpf18, like this
afilt lpf18 a1, klopass, 0, 0



Den ons. 28. nov. 2018 kl. 20:15 skrev fauveboy <joel.ramsbottom@hotmail.co.uk>:
what does this mean I should do, because If i use a static value it gets rid
of the wahwahing ?



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Date2018-11-28 19:27
Fromfauveboy
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
im afraid using a different LPF doesn work either



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Date2018-11-28 19:30
Fromjpff
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
No; i am seeing nothing odd -- but no idea what it sounds like as I said

On Wed, 28 Nov 2018, fauveboy wrote:

> Im not sure what the frequency is?
> it does change if you change the ksmps?
>
> so you are getting the same artefact i think?
>
>
>
>
> --
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Date2018-11-28 19:30
FromOeyvind Brandtsegg
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
Maybe there are more similar artifacts generated, I did not look further once I had found one cause for the high pitched sound. 
If there are more filters that act in a similar way, they could also produce a similar artifact. Could you try outputting the sound from the first filter, and see if you can avoid the artifact (even if it them does not sound like you want).

Den ons. 28. nov. 2018 kl. 20:27 skrev fauveboy <joel.ramsbottom@hotmail.co.uk>:
im afraid using a different LPF doesn work either



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Date2018-11-28 19:31
FromOeyvind Brandtsegg
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
Hi John,
Could you try this csd:

<CsoundSynthesizer>
<CsOptions>
</CsOptions>
<CsInstruments>

sr =44100
ksmps = 10
nchnls = 1
0dbfs = 1

instr 1
a1 poscil 0.5, 60
klfo oscil 0.5, 6
klopass = ((klfo+0.5)*100)+70
afilt butterlp a1, klopass
out afilt
endin 

</CsInstruments>
<CsScore>
i1 0 4
</CsScore>
</CsoundSynthesizer>



Den ons. 28. nov. 2018 kl. 20:30 skrev jpff <jpff@codemist.co.uk>:
No; i am seeing nothing odd -- but no idea what it sounds like as I said

On Wed, 28 Nov 2018, fauveboy wrote:

> Im not sure what the frequency is?
> it does change if you change the ksmps?
>
> so you are getting the same artefact i think?
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/Csound-General-f1093014.html
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Date2018-11-28 19:32
FromSteven Yi
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
I'd use an a-rate modulation signal rather than a k-rate one.  The
jumps from the k-rate zippering could well be the cause from what's
being mentioned about ksmps. The butterworth filters should support
a-rate cutoff and others too like the zdf_ filters.
On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 2:27 PM fauveboy  wrote:
>
> im afraid using a different LPF doesn work either
>
>
>
> --
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Date2018-11-28 19:38
Fromjpff
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
Looks totally clean -- but no sound still -- wish I knew why!

On Wed, 28 Nov 2018, Oeyvind Brandtsegg wrote:

> Hi John,Could you try this csd:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sr =44100
> ksmps = 10
> nchnls = 1
> 0dbfs = 1
> 
> instr 1
> a1 poscil 0.5, 60
> klfo oscil 0.5, 6
> klopass = ((klfo+0.5)*100)+70
> afilt butterlp a1, klopass
> out afilt
> endin 
> 
> 
> 
> i1 0 4
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Den ons. 28. nov. 2018 kl. 20:30 skrev jpff :
>       No; i am seeing nothing odd -- but no idea what it sounds like as
>       I said
>
>       On Wed, 28 Nov 2018, fauveboy wrote:
>
>       > Im not sure what the frequency is?
>       > it does change if you change the ksmps?
>       >
>       > so you are getting the same artefact i think?
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       > --
>       > Sent from:
>       http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/Csound-General-f1093014.html
>       >
>       > Csound mailing list
>       > Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
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> --
> 
> Oeyvind Brandtsegg
> Professor of Music Technology
> NTNU
> 7491 Trondheim
> Norway
> Cell: +47 92 203 205
> 
> http://www.partikkelaudio.com/
> http://crossadaptive.hf.ntnu.no
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Date2018-11-28 19:52
FromOeyvind Brandtsegg
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
You are absolutely right of course, sorry I did not think about that.

Den ons. 28. nov. 2018 kl. 20:32 skrev Steven Yi <stevenyi@gmail.com>:
I'd use an a-rate modulation signal rather than a k-rate one.  The
jumps from the k-rate zippering could well be the cause from what's
being mentioned about ksmps. The butterworth filters should support
a-rate cutoff and others too like the zdf_ filters.
On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 2:27 PM fauveboy <joel.ramsbottom@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> im afraid using a different LPF doesn work either
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/Csound-General-f1093014.html
>
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Date2018-11-28 19:52
FromVictor Lazzarini
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
do you mean you can't play soundfiles?

Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
Maynooth University
Ireland

> On 28 Nov 2018, at 19:39, jpff  wrote:
> 
> Looks totally clean -- but no sound still -- wish I knew why!
> 
>> On Wed, 28 Nov 2018, Oeyvind Brandtsegg wrote:
>> 
>> Hi John,Could you try this csd:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> sr =44100
>> ksmps = 10
>> nchnls = 1
>> 0dbfs = 1
>> instr 1
>> a1 poscil 0.5, 60
>> klfo oscil 0.5, 6
>> klopass = ((klfo+0.5)*100)+70
>> afilt butterlp a1, klopass
>> out afilt
>> endin 
>> 
>> 
>> i1 0 4
>> 
>> 
>> Den ons. 28. nov. 2018 kl. 20:30 skrev jpff :
>>      No; i am seeing nothing odd -- but no idea what it sounds like as
>>      I said
>> 
>>      On Wed, 28 Nov 2018, fauveboy wrote:
>> 
>>      > Im not sure what the frequency is?
>>      > it does change if you change the ksmps?
>>      >
>>      > so you are getting the same artefact i think?
>>      >
>>      >
>>      >
>>      >
>>      > --
>>      > Sent from:
>>      http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/Csound-General-f1093014.html
>>      >
>>      > Csound mailing list
>>      > Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>>      > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>>      > Send bugs reports to
>>      >        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>      > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>      >
>> 
>>      Csound mailing list
>>      Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>>      https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>>      Send bugs reports to
>>              https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>      Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> --
>> Oeyvind Brandtsegg
>> Professor of Music Technology
>> NTNU
>> 7491 Trondheim
>> Norway
>> Cell: +47 92 203 205
>> http://www.partikkelaudio.com/
>> http://crossadaptive.hf.ntnu.no
>> http://gdsp.hf.ntnu.no/
>> http://soundcloud.com/brandtsegg
>> http://flyndresang.no/
>> http://soundcloud.com/t-emp
>>  
>> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to
>> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can
>> be posted here
>> 
> 
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Date2018-11-28 20:07
FromRichard Dobson
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
The "fundamental" tone is very very low - 60hz quasi-sinusoidal. So 
small speakers will hardly cope at all; plus low-level (-70dB or so) 
spurious harmonics starting at  4.41KHz = krate. So indeed changing to 
a-rate lfo fixes it (kind of begs the question whether users should 
bother with k-rate signals at all these days). A good sound for a 
quiescent Tardis, but needs full-size audiophile loudspeakers, or at 
least a hefty woofer.

Richard Dobson


On 28/11/2018 19:52, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
> do you mean you can't play soundfiles?
> 
> Victor Lazzarini
> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
> Maynooth University
> Ireland
> 
>> On 28 Nov 2018, at 19:39, jpff  wrote:
>>
>> Looks totally clean -- but no sound still -- wish I knew why!
>>
...

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Date2018-11-28 20:35
Fromjpff
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
Yes; no outut from -o dac, no sounf from aplay and no sound from audacity

Oddly there is sound from the system test for sound, but that is the only 
sound.


On Wed, 28 Nov 2018, Victor Lazzarini wrote:

> do you mean you can't play soundfiles?
>
> Victor Lazzarini
> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
> Maynooth University
> Ireland
>

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Date2018-11-28 20:41
FromVictor Lazzarini
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
maybe it's device selection. Sometimes alsa gives various devices, some of which don't work.

Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
Maynooth University
Ireland

> On 28 Nov 2018, at 20:36, jpff  wrote:
> 
> Yes; no outut from -o dac, no sounf from aplay and no sound from audacity
> 
> Oddly there is sound from the system test for sound, but that is the only sound.
> 
> 
>> On Wed, 28 Nov 2018, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
>> 
>> do you mean you can't play soundfiles?
>> 
>> Victor Lazzarini
>> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
>> Maynooth University
>> Ireland
>> 
> 
> Csound mailing list
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Date2018-11-28 20:42
Fromjpff
SubjectRe: [Csnd] High pitch when using wah wah effect (aliasing perhaps)?
Peraps Ricard Dobson is right; I get sound fro trapped....

Oh well -- tat is fixed!


On Wed, 28 Nov 2018, jpff wrote:

> Yes; no outut from -o dac, no sounf from aplay and no sound from audacity
>
> Oddly there is sound from the system test for sound, but that is the only 
> sound.
>
>
> On Wed, 28 Nov 2018, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
>
>> do you mean you can't play soundfiles?
>> 
>> Victor Lazzarini
>> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
>> Maynooth University
>> Ireland
>> 
>
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
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> Send bugs reports to
>       https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>

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