This sorry incident made me think we have a very good list here, which  
is quite privileged, because we do not see trolls around very often.  
Other lists (like the Linux Developer's) have their fair share of the  
kind.

Victor


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and if they come again, i'd suggest just to ignore such nonsense which  
disqualifies itself.
removing someone from the list should not be considered the usual case.
if trolls get no answer, they will disappear quite fast, i think.
this may be difficult to stand for us because of the insulting words,  
but actually it's the worst thing what can happen to someone like the  
guy we have just seen here:
simply no reply. just nothing.
then he even can't feel himself as a victim (which he can now because  
he was removed).

	joachim


Am 16.06.2010 um 10:54 schrieb Victor Lazzarini:

> This sorry incident made me think we have a very good list here,  
> which is quite privileged, because we do not see trolls around very  
> often. Other lists (like the Linux Developer's) have their fair  
> share of the kind.
>
> Victor
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>



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He has asked to be re-subscribed; I am inclined to impose a fixed
exclusion time?

> and if they come again, i'd suggest just to ignore such nonsense which
> disqualifies itself.
> removing someone from the list should not be considered the usual case.
> if trolls get no answer, they will disappear quite fast, i think.
> this may be difficult to stand for us because of the insulting words,
> but actually it's the worst thing what can happen to someone like the
> guy we have just seen here:
> simply no reply. just nothing.
> then he even can't feel himself as a victim (which he can now because
> he was removed).
>
> 	joachim
>




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> He has asked to be re-subscribed; I am inclined to impose a fixed
> exclusion time?

Yes, good idea

About this particular person, I have the feeling he is more quite 
seriously lacking social skills (maybe very young ?) than exactly a 
troll per se. Being excluded for a little while may make the point 
clear; I am not in favor of a full ban (yet).

Stef




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Doesn't look too young to me. http://www.facebook.com/bak.dima

P

On 16 Jun 2010, at 12:22, Stéphane Rollandin wrote:

>> He has asked to be re-subscribed; I am inclined to impose a fixed
>> exclusion time?
>
> Yes, good idea
>
> About this particular person, I have the feeling he is more quite  
> seriously lacking social skills (maybe very young ?) than exactly a  
> troll per se. Being excluded for a little while may make the point  
> clear; I am not in favor of a full ban (yet).
>
> Stef
>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"
>



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The issue can be complicated by the use of multiple e-mail addresses.
The troll you know is better than the troll you don't know.

~ andy.f



On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 7:48 AM, Anthony Palomba  wrote:
> I believe some consequence is in order. If people are note made aware
> that their behavior is not acceptable, and that their are consequences to
> such behavior, they will just keep doing it.
>
>
>
>
> -ap
>
>
>
>
> 2010/6/16 Stéphane Rollandin 
>>>
>>> He has asked to be re-subscribed; I am inclined to impose a fixed
>>> exclusion time?
>>
>> Yes, good idea
>>
>> About this particular person, I have the feeling he is more quite
>> seriously lacking social skills (maybe very young ?) than exactly a troll
>> per se. Being excluded for a little while may make the point clear; I am not
>> in favor of a full ban (yet).
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>
>


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I propose that trolls be de-listed after the first warning. If they
politely re-apply with an apology and a promise not to do it again,
they should be re-admitted on probation. If they then repeat the
offense, they should be banned permanently.

Just my two cents,
Mike

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 8:04 AM, andy fillebrown
 wrote:
> The issue can be complicated by the use of multiple e-mail addresses.
> The troll you know is better than the troll you don't know.
>
> ~ andy.f
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 7:48 AM, Anthony Palomba  wrote:
>> I believe some consequence is in order. If people are note made aware
>> that their behavior is not acceptable, and that their are consequences to
>> such behavior, they will just keep doing it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -ap
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2010/6/16 Stéphane Rollandin 
>>>>
>>>> He has asked to be re-subscribed; I am inclined to impose a fixed
>>>> exclusion time?
>>>
>>> Yes, good idea
>>>
>>> About this particular person, I have the feeling he is more quite
>>> seriously lacking social skills (maybe very young ?) than exactly a troll
>>> per se. Being excluded for a little while may make the point clear; I am not
>>> in favor of a full ban (yet).
>>>
>>> Stef
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>>           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>>> csound"
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>
>



-- 
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


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This person's main fault was the use of bad language. I am sure that it has more to do with him watching too many american adventure movies, than bad personality per se.

However, there is one important question: has he been notified about the reasons that caused the banning? If so, perhaps he might be willing to express remorse and provide assurance of more polite behavior in the future.

My two cents.

Panos




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Sounds like a good idea. I'm in favour of this.
On 16 Jun 2010, at 13:08, Michael Gogins wrote:

> I propose that trolls be de-listed after the first warning. If they
> politely re-apply with an apology and a promise not to do it again,
> they should be re-admitted on probation. If they then repeat the
> offense, they should be banned permanently.
>
> Just my two cents,
> Mike
>
> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 8:04 AM, andy fillebrown
>  wrote:
>> The issue can be complicated by the use of multiple e-mail addresses.
>> The troll you know is better than the troll you don't know.
>>
>> ~ andy.f
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 7:48 AM, Anthony Palomba > > wrote:
>>> I believe some consequence is in order. If people are note made  
>>> aware
>>> that their behavior is not acceptable, and that their are  
>>> consequences to
>>> such behavior, they will just keep doing it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -ap
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2010/6/16 Stéphane Rollandin 
>>>>>
>>>>> He has asked to be re-subscribed; I am inclined to impose a fixed
>>>>> exclusion time?
>>>>
>>>> Yes, good idea
>>>>
>>>> About this particular person, I have the feeling he is more quite
>>>> seriously lacking social skills (maybe very young ?) than exactly  
>>>> a troll
>>>> per se. Being excluded for a little while may make the point  
>>>> clear; I am not
>>>> in favor of a full ban (yet).
>>>>
>>>> Stef
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>>>           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>> csound"
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/? 
>> group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Michael Gogins
> Irreducible Productions
> http://www.michael-gogins.com
> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"
>



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I vote for taking him back again as well, if he asked, he is
interested. And follow Joachim's suggestion if necessary.

Cheers,
Andrés

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 11:23 AM,   wrote:
> He has asked to be re-subscribed; I am inclined to impose a fixed
> exclusion time?
>
>> and if they come again, i'd suggest just to ignore such nonsense which
>> disqualifies itself.
>> removing someone from the list should not be considered the usual case.
>> if trolls get no answer, they will disappear quite fast, i think.
>> this may be difficult to stand for us because of the insulting words,
>> but actually it's the worst thing what can happen to someone like the
>> guy we have just seen here:
>> simply no reply. just nothing.
>> then he even can't feel himself as a victim (which he can now because
>> he was removed).
>>
>>       joachim
>>
>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"
>
>



-- 


Andrés


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Ignoring a troll doesn't always work. For years, the rec.arts.int-fiction
newsgroup has been plagued with a clever troll named Jacek Pudlo. He
sometimes starts out with a plausible-sounding comment (under a fake name)
just to start a conversation, and then cranks it up until he's spewing
abuse.

Since this is a moderated list, it's possible to ban someone. I tend to
favor leniency, up to a point and with an explanation to the offender. In
the case of repeated offenses, yank him.

--JA


joachim heintz wrote:
> 
> and if they come again, i'd suggest just to ignore such nonsense which  
> disqualifies itself.
> removing someone from the list should not be considered the usual case.
> if trolls get no answer, they will disappear quite fast, i think.
> 

I think he should apologise to Andreas for his comments, and then he
can be reinstated to the list. If he doesn't want to apologise then he
shouldn't be allowed back onto the list.

On 6/16/10, Jim Aikin  wrote:
>
> Ignoring a troll doesn't always work. For years, the rec.arts.int-fiction
> newsgroup has been plagued with a clever troll named Jacek Pudlo. He
> sometimes starts out with a plausible-sounding comment (under a fake name)
> just to start a conversation, and then cranks it up until he's spewing
> abuse.
>
> Since this is a moderated list, it's possible to ban someone. I tend to
> favor leniency, up to a point and with an explanation to the offender. In
> the case of repeated offenses, yank him.
>
> --JA
>
>
> joachim heintz wrote:
>>
>> and if they come again, i'd suggest just to ignore such nonsense which
>> disqualifies itself.
>> removing someone from the list should not be considered the usual case.
>> if trolls get no answer, they will disappear quite fast, i think.
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://old.nabble.com/-OT--trolls-tp28900417p28905049.html
> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>             https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>
>

Stéphane Rollandin wrote:
> About this particular person, I have the feeling he is more quite 
> seriously lacking social skills (maybe very young ?) than exactly a 
> troll per se. Being excluded for a little while may make the point 
> clear; I am not in favor of a full ban (yet). 

I suspect he has the Asperger syndrome. I am on another list where two 
people have told that they have the Asperger syndrome, and they are 
known to use such language as well, though only when a person is getting 
on their nerves, not just an application. Arguing with them about this 
sadly didn't help, so perhaps a warning will not be enough.

Hi,

Dima has apologized to me privately, and seems interested in
contributing with testing, so I think we can go back to other
subjects... =)

Cheers,
Andrés

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 8:10 PM, Mark Van Peteghem
 wrote:
> Stéphane Rollandin wrote:
>>
>> About this particular person, I have the feeling he is more quite
>> seriously lacking social skills (maybe very young ?) than exactly a troll
>> per se. Being excluded for a little while may make the point clear; I am not
>> in favor of a full ban (yet).
>
> I suspect he has the Asperger syndrome. I am on another list where two
> people have told that they have the Asperger syndrome, and they are known to
> use such language as well, though only when a person is getting on their
> nerves, not just an application. Arguing with them about this sadly didn't
> help, so perhaps a warning will not be enough.
>
> --
>  Mark
>  _________________________________________
>  When you get lemons, you make lemonade.
>  When you get hardware, you make software.
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
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> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>
>



-- 


Andrés


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I'm familiar with Jacek, and though it's been years since I've been on that group, I got the impression it was a bit more of a love-hate relationship between him and the group. His posts weren't so much offensive as they were just ridiculous, and many times I appreciated the humor. Things could be different now, though, I don't know. For an unmoderated group, though, RAIF was pretty tame.



----- Original Message ----
From: Jim Aikin 
To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
Sent: Wed, June 16, 2010 11:47:41 AM
Subject: [Csnd] Re: [OT] trolls


Ignoring a troll doesn't always work. For years, the rec.arts.int-fiction
newsgroup has been plagued with a clever troll named Jacek Pudlo. He
sometimes starts out with a plausible-sounding comment (under a fake name)
just to start a conversation, and then cranks it up until he's spewing
abuse.

Since this is a moderated list, it's possible to ban someone. I tend to
favor leniency, up to a point and with an explanation to the offender. In
the case of repeated offenses, yank him.

--JA


joachim heintz wrote:
> 
> and if they come again, i'd suggest just to ignore such nonsense which  
> disqualifies itself.
> removing someone from the list should not be considered the usual case.
> if trolls get no answer, they will disappear quite fast, i think.
> 

Sorry to go OT, but please don't stereotype.  As the father of a 
20-year-old son with Asperger Syndrome, and friend and acquaintance of a 
number of other autistic people (Asperger and otherwise), I can tell you 
that this is an inaccurate and misleading generalization.  Rudeness is 
not a trait of autism, and non-autistic people are just as likely to 
behave badly.

- Dave

On 6/16/2010 3:10 PM, Mark Van Peteghem wrote:
> Stéphane Rollandin wrote:
>> About this particular person, I have the feeling he is more quite
>> seriously lacking social skills (maybe very young ?) than exactly a
>> troll per se. Being excluded for a little while may make the point
>> clear; I am not in favor of a full ban (yet).
>
> I suspect he has the Asperger syndrome. I am on another list where two
> people have told that they have the Asperger syndrome, and they are
> known to use such language as well, though only when a person is getting
> on their nerves, not just an application. Arguing with them about this
> sadly didn't help, so perhaps a warning will not be enough.
>



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You may be right, I'm not an expert, maybe I just met two people with 
Asperger that just happen to be annoying.

Dave Seidel wrote:
> Sorry to go OT, but please don't stereotype.  As the father of a 
> 20-year-old son with Asperger Syndrome, and friend and acquaintance of 
> a number of other autistic people (Asperger and otherwise), I can tell 
> you that this is an inaccurate and misleading generalization.  
> Rudeness is not a trait of autism, and non-autistic people are just as 
> likely to behave badly.
>
> - Dave
>
> On 6/16/2010 3:10 PM, Mark Van Peteghem wrote:
>> Stéphane Rollandin wrote:
>>> About this particular person, I have the feeling he is more quite
>>> seriously lacking social skills (maybe very young ?) than exactly a
>>> troll per se. Being excluded for a little while may make the point
>>> clear; I am not in favor of a full ban (yet).
>>
>> I suspect he has the Asperger syndrome. I am on another list where two
>> people have told that they have the Asperger syndrome, and they are
>> known to use such language as well, though only when a person is getting
>> on their nerves, not just an application. Arguing with them about this
>> sadly didn't help, so perhaps a warning will not be enough.
>>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body 
> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>

Meanwhile, has he a discernable issue with qutecsound -- that might be
described for him if not by him?

Mark Van Peteghem wrote:
> You may be right, I'm not an expert, maybe I just met two people with 
> Asperger that just happen to be annoying.
> 
> Dave Seidel wrote:
>> Sorry to go OT, but please don't stereotype.  As the father of a 
>> 20-year-old son with Asperger Syndrome, and friend and acquaintance of 
>> a number of other autistic people (Asperger and otherwise), I can tell 
>> you that this is an inaccurate and misleading generalization.  
>> Rudeness is not a trait of autism, and non-autistic people are just as 
>> likely to behave badly.
>>
>> - Dave
>>
>> On 6/16/2010 3:10 PM, Mark Van Peteghem wrote:
>>> Stéphane Rollandin wrote:
>>>> About this particular person, I have the feeling he is more quite
>>>> seriously lacking social skills (maybe very young ?) than exactly a
>>>> troll per se. Being excluded for a little while may make the point
>>>> clear; I am not in favor of a full ban (yet).
>>>
>>> I suspect he has the Asperger syndrome. I am on another list where two
>>> people have told that they have the Asperger syndrome, and they are
>>> known to use such language as well, though only when a person is getting
>>> on their nerves, not just an application. Arguing with them about this
>>> sadly didn't help, so perhaps a warning will not be enough.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body 
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>>
>>
> 


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