Very short, simple question.

Why do buzz and gbuzz so specifically talk about/use cosines rather  
than sines?

Greg



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sin(0) = 0, cos(0) = 1
so starting from zero, sin should be smoother...

Martin

Jason Timm wrote:
> Is it cause a cosine's phase starts at 0., helping eliminate the dreaded 
> amplitude discrepancy click. That's what I always thought.
> 
> -J
> 
> On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 11:16 AM, gmschroeder  > wrote:
> 
>     Very short, simple question.
> 
>     Why do buzz and gbuzz so specifically talk about/use cosines rather
>     than sines?
> 
>     Greg
> 
> 
> 
>     Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>              
>     https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>     
>     Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>     To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk
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> 
> 



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The short tech answer is that this is simply how the trigonometry works out.

The alternative answer notes that cos(0) = 1 for all frequencies, so 
that stacking cosines aligns all harmonic partials at their peaks. This 
is how we can get a pulse wave which actually looks like a (bandlimited) 
pulse wave, at the amplitude we ask for. Use sines and the peaks will be 
at different positions for each partial, resulting in both a non 
pulse-like waveform and somewhat lower net amplitudes.


Richard Dobson

On 05/06/2010 19:43, Martin Peach wrote:
> sin(0) = 0, cos(0) = 1
> so starting from zero, sin should be smoother...
>
> Martin
>
> Jason Timm wrote:
>> Is it cause a cosine's phase starts at 0., helping eliminate the
>> dreaded amplitude discrepancy click. That's what I always thought.
>>
>> -J



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it would be nice to put this info in the manual (as it always comes up  
with beginners and seniorCsounders alike)

thanks Richard

-dB

On Jun 5, 2010, at 3:33 PM, Richard Dobson wrote:

> The short tech answer is that this is simply how the trigonometry  
> works out.
>
> The alternative answer notes that cos(0) = 1 for all frequencies, so  
> that stacking cosines aligns all harmonic partials at their peaks.  
> This is how we can get a pulse wave which actually looks like a  
> (bandlimited) pulse wave, at the amplitude we ask for. Use sines and  
> the peaks will be at different positions for each partial, resulting  
> in both a non pulse-like waveform and somewhat lower net amplitudes.
>
>
> Richard Dobson
>
> On 05/06/2010 19:43, Martin Peach wrote:
>> sin(0) = 0, cos(0) = 1
>> so starting from zero, sin should be smoother...
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> Jason Timm wrote:
>>> Is it cause a cosine's phase starts at 0., helping eliminate the
>>> dreaded amplitude discrepancy click. That's what I always thought.
>>>
>>> -J
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"
>



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The manual seems to say that buzz produces a set of sine partials, but  
from its output I see a typical sum of cosines (blp). A sum of sines  
produces a bipolar pulse (you can see it by using GEN10 with 1 1 1 1 1  
1 ...).

On my machine, gbuzz appears to be buggy, producing a unscaled signal.  
Since I have never used it, I'm not sure whether that is supposed to  
be the case.
GEN 11 appears to be OK.

Victor


On 5 Jun 2010, at 20:33, Richard Dobson wrote:

> The short tech answer is that this is simply how the trigonometry  
> works out.
>
> The alternative answer notes that cos(0) = 1 for all frequencies, so  
> that stacking cosines aligns all harmonic partials at their peaks.  
> This is how we can get a pulse wave which actually looks like a  
> (bandlimited) pulse wave, at the amplitude we ask for. Use sines and  
> the peaks will be at different positions for each partial, resulting  
> in both a non pulse-like waveform and somewhat lower net amplitudes.
>
>
> Richard Dobson
>
> On 05/06/2010 19:43, Martin Peach wrote:
>> sin(0) = 0, cos(0) = 1
>> so starting from zero, sin should be smoother...
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> Jason Timm wrote:
>>> Is it cause a cosine's phase starts at 0., helping eliminate the
>>> dreaded amplitude discrepancy click. That's what I always thought.
>>>
>>> -J
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"
>



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Interesting discoveries.  We should probably get these fundamental/ 
core opcodes to work and work correctly.  Wow. After all these years.

Sent from my Radio Baton ;-)

On Jun 5, 2010, at 6:38 PM, Victor Lazzarini  
 wrote:

> The manual seems to say that buzz produces a set of sine partials,  
> but from its output I see a typical sum of cosines (blp). A sum of  
> sines produces a bipolar pulse (you can see it by using GEN10 with 1 1 1 1 1 1 
>  ...).
>
> On my machine, gbuzz appears to be buggy, producing a unscaled  
> signal. Since I have never used it, I'm not sure whether that is  
> supposed to be the case.
> GEN 11 appears to be OK.
>
> Victor
>
>
> On 5 Jun 2010, at 20:33, Richard Dobson wrote:
>
>> The short tech answer is that this is simply how the trigonometry  
>> works out.
>>
>> The alternative answer notes that cos(0) = 1 for all frequencies,  
>> so that stacking cosines aligns all harmonic partials at their  
>> peaks. This is how we can get a pulse wave which actually looks  
>> like a (bandlimited) pulse wave, at the amplitude we ask for. Use  
>> sines and the peaks will be at different positions for each  
>> partial, resulting in both a non pulse-like waveform and somewhat  
>> lower net amplitudes.
>>
>>
>> Richard Dobson
>>
>> On 05/06/2010 19:43, Martin Peach wrote:
>>> sin(0) = 0, cos(0) = 1
>>> so starting from zero, sin should be smoother...
>>>
>>> Martin
>>>
>>> Jason Timm wrote:
>>>> Is it cause a cosine's phase starts at 0., helping eliminate the
>>>> dreaded amplitude discrepancy click. That's what I always thought.
>>>>
>>>> -J
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>          https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
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There's nothing wrong as such with a bipolar pulse wave - indeed it can 
often be useful, but clearly the documentation and the output must 
correspond, so the user always knows what they are going to get, and to 
some extent why they would want to get/avoid it.


Richard Dobson


On 05/06/2010 23:38, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
> The manual seems to say that buzz produces a set of sine partials, but
> from its output I see a typical sum of cosines (blp). A sum of sines
> produces a bipolar pulse (you can see it by using GEN10 with 1 1 1 1 1 1
> ...).
>
> On my machine, gbuzz appears to be buggy, producing a unscaled signal.
> Since I have never used it, I'm not sure whether that is supposed to be
> the case.
> GEN 11 appears to be OK.
>



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Definitely nothing wrong, I did not mean to imply that. It's just that  
the manual says

buzz — Output is a set of harmonically related sine partials.

and that is wrong, it's a set of cosines. The gbuzz manual is actually  
correct and says they're cosines (which you get if you
use a cosine table with it; buzz needs a sine wave instead). Gbuzz  
works correctly with a cosine (I was using a sine and the scaling was
not designed to cope with that).

Coming to think of it, there are no opcodes implementing the DSF  
formulae more generally (gbuzz is a special case). Maybe I should add  
them, they
are great alternatives to the more common two-oscillator FM synthesis.

Victor

On 6 Jun 2010, at 10:33, Richard Dobson wrote:

> There's nothing wrong as such with a bipolar pulse wave - indeed it  
> can often be useful, but clearly the documentation and the output  
> must correspond, so the user always knows what they are going to  
> get, and to some extent why they would want to get/avoid it.
>
>
> Richard Dobson
>
>
> On 05/06/2010 23:38, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
>> The manual seems to say that buzz produces a set of sine partials,  
>> but
>> from its output I see a typical sum of cosines (blp). A sum of sines
>> produces a bipolar pulse (you can see it by using GEN10 with 1 1 1  
>> 1 1 1
>> ...).
>>
>> On my machine, gbuzz appears to be buggy, producing a unscaled  
>> signal.
>> Since I have never used it, I'm not sure whether that is supposed  
>> to be
>> the case.
>> GEN 11 appears to be OK.
>>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"
>



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Please do :-) Your valuable work and examples on DSF will most
probably be easier to use and more effective when implemented as an
opcode (or opcodes)
best
Oeyvind

2010/6/6 Victor Lazzarini :
> Definitely nothing wrong, I did not mean to imply that. It's just that the
> manual says
>
> buzz — Output is a set of harmonically related sine partials.
>
> and that is wrong, it's a set of cosines. The gbuzz manual is actually
> correct and says they're cosines (which you get if you
> use a cosine table with it; buzz needs a sine wave instead). Gbuzz works
> correctly with a cosine (I was using a sine and the scaling was
> not designed to cope with that).
>
> Coming to think of it, there are no opcodes implementing the DSF formulae
> more generally (gbuzz is a special case). Maybe I should add them, they
> are great alternatives to the more common two-oscillator FM synthesis.
>
> Victor
>
> On 6 Jun 2010, at 10:33, Richard Dobson wrote:
>
>> There's nothing wrong as such with a bipolar pulse wave - indeed it can
>> often be useful, but clearly the documentation and the output must
>> correspond, so the user always knows what they are going to get, and to some
>> extent why they would want to get/avoid it.
>>
>>
>> Richard Dobson
>>
>>
>> On 05/06/2010 23:38, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
>>>
>>> The manual seems to say that buzz produces a set of sine partials, but
>>> from its output I see a typical sum of cosines (blp). A sum of sines
>>> produces a bipolar pulse (you can see it by using GEN10 with 1 1 1 1 1 1
>>> ...).
>>>
>>> On my machine, gbuzz appears to be buggy, producing a unscaled signal.
>>> Since I have never used it, I'm not sure whether that is supposed to be
>>> the case.
>>> GEN 11 appears to be OK.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>          https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
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> csound"
>
>


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Looking at my hard copy of manual v 4.01 (printed it all out when I  
first started learning Csound!):



36.1 buzz, gbuzz

36.1.1 DESCRIPTION

Output is a set of harmonically related cosine partials

36.1.2 INITIALIZATION

ifn - table number of a stored function containing (for buzz) a sine  
wave, of (for gbuzz) a cosine wave. In either case a large table of  
at least 8192 points is recommended.

36.1.3 PERFORMANCE

The buzz units generate an additive set of harmonically related  
cosine partials of fundamental frequency xcps, and whose amplitudes  
are scaled so their summation peak equals xamp.



The description and performance sections make it pretty clear that  
the output is a set of cosines. Perhaps it's the difference in the  
function table that led to the confusion?

Joe

email:	info@joeofarrell.com
web:	www.joeofarrell.com

phone:	+353 85 788 8854

skype:	joeofarrell




On 6 Jun 2010, at 13:07, Oeyvind Brandtsegg wrote:

> Please do :-) Your valuable work and examples on DSF will most
> probably be easier to use and more effective when implemented as an
> opcode (or opcodes)
> best
> Oeyvind
>
> 2010/6/6 Victor Lazzarini :
>> Definitely nothing wrong, I did not mean to imply that. It's just  
>> that the
>> manual says
>>
>> buzz — Output is a set of harmonically related sine partials.
>>
>> and that is wrong, it's a set of cosines. The gbuzz manual is  
>> actually
>> correct and says they're cosines (which you get if you
>> use a cosine table with it; buzz needs a sine wave instead). Gbuzz  
>> works
>> correctly with a cosine (I was using a sine and the scaling was
>> not designed to cope with that).
>>
>> Coming to think of it, there are no opcodes implementing the DSF  
>> formulae
>> more generally (gbuzz is a special case). Maybe I should add them,  
>> they
>> are great alternatives to the more common two-oscillator FM  
>> synthesis.
>>
>> Victor
>>
>> On 6 Jun 2010, at 10:33, Richard Dobson wrote:
>>
>>> There's nothing wrong as such with a bipolar pulse wave - indeed  
>>> it can
>>> often be useful, but clearly the documentation and the output must
>>> correspond, so the user always knows what they are going to get,  
>>> and to some
>>> extent why they would want to get/avoid it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Richard Dobson
>>>
>>>
>>> On 05/06/2010 23:38, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The manual seems to say that buzz produces a set of sine  
>>>> partials, but
>>>> from its output I see a typical sum of cosines (blp). A sum of  
>>>> sines
>>>> produces a bipolar pulse (you can see it by using GEN10 with 1 1  
>>>> 1 1 1 1
>>>> ...).
>>>>
>>>> On my machine, gbuzz appears to be buggy, producing a unscaled  
>>>> signal.
>>>> Since I have never used it, I'm not sure whether that is  
>>>> supposed to be
>>>> the case.
>>>> GEN 11 appears to be OK.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>>          https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>> "unsubscribe
>>> csound"
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>> "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
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>



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No, the manual has changed them. These opcodes are in different pages  
and the buzz page says it creates a set of sines:

http://www.csounds.com/manual/html/buzz.html

this is wrong.

Victor

On 6 Jun 2010, at 19:29, Joe O'Farrell wrote:

> Looking at my hard copy of manual v 4.01 (printed it all out when I  
> first started learning Csound!):
>
>
>
> 36.1 buzz, gbuzz
>
> 36.1.1 DESCRIPTION
>
> Output is a set of harmonically related cosine partials
>
> 36.1.2 INITIALIZATION
>
> ifn - table number of a stored function containing (for buzz) a sine  
> wave, of (for gbuzz) a cosine wave. In either case a large table of  
> at least 8192 points is recommended.
>
> 36.1.3 PERFORMANCE
>
> The buzz units generate an additive set of harmonically related  
> cosine partials of fundamental frequency xcps, and whose amplitudes  
> are scaled so their summation peak equals xamp.
>
>
>
> The description and performance sections make it pretty clear that  
> the output is a set of cosines. Perhaps it's the difference in the  
> function table that led to the confusion?
>
> Joe
>
> email:	info@joeofarrell.com
> web:	www.joeofarrell.com
>
> phone:	+353 85 788 8854
>
> skype:	joeofarrell
>
>
>
>
> On 6 Jun 2010, at 13:07, Oeyvind Brandtsegg wrote:
>
>> Please do :-) Your valuable work and examples on DSF will most
>> probably be easier to use and more effective when implemented as an
>> opcode (or opcodes)
>> best
>> Oeyvind
>>
>> 2010/6/6 Victor Lazzarini :
>>> Definitely nothing wrong, I did not mean to imply that. It's just  
>>> that the
>>> manual says
>>>
>>> buzz — Output is a set of harmonically related sine partials.
>>>
>>> and that is wrong, it's a set of cosines. The gbuzz manual is  
>>> actually
>>> correct and says they're cosines (which you get if you
>>> use a cosine table with it; buzz needs a sine wave instead). Gbuzz  
>>> works
>>> correctly with a cosine (I was using a sine and the scaling was
>>> not designed to cope with that).
>>>
>>> Coming to think of it, there are no opcodes implementing the DSF  
>>> formulae
>>> more generally (gbuzz is a special case). Maybe I should add them,  
>>> they
>>> are great alternatives to the more common two-oscillator FM  
>>> synthesis.
>>>
>>> Victor
>>>
>>> On 6 Jun 2010, at 10:33, Richard Dobson wrote:
>>>
>>>> There's nothing wrong as such with a bipolar pulse wave - indeed  
>>>> it can
>>>> often be useful, but clearly the documentation and the output must
>>>> correspond, so the user always knows what they are going to get,  
>>>> and to some
>>>> extent why they would want to get/avoid it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Richard Dobson
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 05/06/2010 23:38, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The manual seems to say that buzz produces a set of sine  
>>>>> partials, but
>>>>> from its output I see a typical sum of cosines (blp). A sum of  
>>>>> sines
>>>>> produces a bipolar pulse (you can see it by using GEN10 with 1 1  
>>>>> 1 1 1 1
>>>>> ...).
>>>>>
>>>>> On my machine, gbuzz appears to be buggy, producing a unscaled  
>>>>> signal.
>>>>> Since I have never used it, I'm not sure whether that is  
>>>>> supposed to be
>>>>> the case.
>>>>> GEN 11 appears to be OK.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>>>         https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>> csound"
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>>          https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>> "unsubscribe
>>> csound"
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/? 
>> group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"
>



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Sorry - didn't make myself clear! I was wondering if the mistake in  
the current manual was down to confusion over the tables in earlier  
versions. As you say, at the moment it is simply wrong!

Joe


On 6 Jun 2010, at 19:37, Victor Lazzarini wrote:

> No, the manual has changed them. These opcodes are in different  
> pages and the buzz page says it creates a set of sines:
>
> http://www.csounds.com/manual/html/buzz.html
>
> this is wrong.
>
> Victor
>
> On 6 Jun 2010, at 19:29, Joe O'Farrell wrote:
>
>> Looking at my hard copy of manual v 4.01 (printed it all out when  
>> I first started learning Csound!):
>>
>>
>>
>> 36.1 buzz, gbuzz
>>
>> 36.1.1 DESCRIPTION
>>
>> Output is a set of harmonically related cosine partials
>>
>> 36.1.2 INITIALIZATION
>>
>> ifn - table number of a stored function containing (for buzz) a  
>> sine wave, of (for gbuzz) a cosine wave. In either case a large  
>> table of at least 8192 points is recommended.
>>
>> 36.1.3 PERFORMANCE
>>
>> The buzz units generate an additive set of harmonically related  
>> cosine partials of fundamental frequency xcps, and whose  
>> amplitudes are scaled so their summation peak equals xamp.
>>
>>
>>
>> The description and performance sections make it pretty clear that  
>> the output is a set of cosines. Perhaps it's the difference in the  
>> function table that led to the confusion?
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> email:	info@joeofarrell.com
>> web:	www.joeofarrell.com
>>
>> phone:	+353 85 788 8854
>>
>> skype:	joeofarrell
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6 Jun 2010, at 13:07, Oeyvind Brandtsegg wrote:
>>
>>> Please do :-) Your valuable work and examples on DSF will most
>>> probably be easier to use and more effective when implemented as an
>>> opcode (or opcodes)
>>> best
>>> Oeyvind
>>>
>>> 2010/6/6 Victor Lazzarini :
>>>> Definitely nothing wrong, I did not mean to imply that. It's  
>>>> just that the
>>>> manual says
>>>>
>>>> buzz — Output is a set of harmonically related sine partials.
>>>>
>>>> and that is wrong, it's a set of cosines. The gbuzz manual is  
>>>> actually
>>>> correct and says they're cosines (which you get if you
>>>> use a cosine table with it; buzz needs a sine wave instead).  
>>>> Gbuzz works
>>>> correctly with a cosine (I was using a sine and the scaling was
>>>> not designed to cope with that).
>>>>
>>>> Coming to think of it, there are no opcodes implementing the DSF  
>>>> formulae
>>>> more generally (gbuzz is a special case). Maybe I should add  
>>>> them, they
>>>> are great alternatives to the more common two-oscillator FM  
>>>> synthesis.
>>>>
>>>> Victor
>>>>
>>>> On 6 Jun 2010, at 10:33, Richard Dobson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There's nothing wrong as such with a bipolar pulse wave -  
>>>>> indeed it can
>>>>> often be useful, but clearly the documentation and the output must
>>>>> correspond, so the user always knows what they are going to  
>>>>> get, and to some
>>>>> extent why they would want to get/avoid it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Richard Dobson
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 05/06/2010 23:38, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The manual seems to say that buzz produces a set of sine  
>>>>>> partials, but
>>>>>> from its output I see a typical sum of cosines (blp). A sum of  
>>>>>> sines
>>>>>> produces a bipolar pulse (you can see it by using GEN10 with 1  
>>>>>> 1 1 1 1 1
>>>>>> ...).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On my machine, gbuzz appears to be buggy, producing a unscaled  
>>>>>> signal.
>>>>>> Since I have never used it, I'm not sure whether that is  
>>>>>> supposed to be
>>>>>> the case.
>>>>>> GEN 11 appears to be OK.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>>>          https://sourceforge.net/tracker/? 
>>>> group_id=81968&atid=564599
>>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
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>>>> csound"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
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>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
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>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>



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