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[Csnd] [OT] fluid piano... more like a dulcimer

Date2009-11-23 19:44
FromVictor Lazzarini
Subject[Csnd] [OT] fluid piano... more like a dulcimer
This should interest you microtonalists out there. Interesting idea, but my problem is that it does not sound anything like a piano. I was trying to think what, harpsichord... clavichord... no, then I thought it's like a hammered dulcimer. Nice, but not a piano.


Date2009-11-23 22:27
FromPeiman Khosravi
Subject[Csnd] Re: [OT] fluid piano... more like a dulcimer
Yes I agree.

I would prefer to use a sampler re-tuned, it would sound more like a piano. What's the point of making a purely acoustic piano over an electronic one if it sounds less like an acoustic piano!

Interestingly the pianist lady is complaining about Indian musicians using keyboards with western tuning and yet she is playing conventional western harmonies over an "indian backdrop". The residue of a victorian approach, and what's worse, playing the genuine persona. Sorry but I couldn't keep quite, it's my pet hate, having lived in Iran where many composers have a similar mentality, trying to introduce polyphony and harmony into traditional music: the former rarely goes beyond heterophony and the later steps no further than poorly conceived early romanticism.    

P

On 23 Nov 2009, at 19:44, Victor Lazzarini wrote:

This should interest you microtonalists out there. Interesting idea, but my problem is that it does not sound anything like a piano. I was trying to think what, harpsichord... clavichord... no, then I thought it's like a hammered dulcimer. Nice, but not a piano.



Date2009-11-23 22:30
FromRory Walsh
Subject[Csnd] Re: Re: [OT] fluid piano... more like a dulcimer
I imagine that the tension on a traditional piano strings would be too
high to be able to do this kind of thing with them.

2009/11/23 Peiman Khosravi :
> Yes I agree.
> I would prefer to use a sampler re-tuned, it would sound more like a piano.
> What's the point of making a purely acoustic piano over an electronic one if
> it sounds less like an acoustic piano!
> Interestingly the pianist lady is complaining about Indian musicians using
> keyboards with western tuning and yet she is playing conventional western
> harmonies over an "indian backdrop". The residue of a victorian approach,
> and what's worse, playing the genuine persona. Sorry but I couldn't keep
> quite, it's my pet hate, having lived in Iran where many composers have a
> similar mentality, trying to introduce polyphony and harmony into
> traditional music: the former rarely goes beyond heterophony and the later
> steps no further than poorly conceived early romanticism.
> P
> On 23 Nov 2009, at 19:44, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
>
> This should interest you microtonalists out there. Interesting idea, but my
> problem is that it does not sound anything like a piano. I was trying to
> think what, harpsichord... clavichord... no, then I thought it's like a
> hammered dulcimer. Nice, but not a piano.
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/video/2009/nov/22/fluid-piano-classical-music
>
> Victor
>


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Date2009-11-23 22:37
FromPeiman Khosravi
Subject[Csnd] Re: Re: Re: [OT] fluid piano... more like a dulcimer
Yes true. I guess there could be some sort of motorized mechanism for  
tuning the strings though. But it would be noisy in the case.

P

On 23 Nov 2009, at 22:30, Rory Walsh wrote:

> I imagine that the tension on a traditional piano strings would be too
> high to be able to do this kind of thing with them.
>
> 2009/11/23 Peiman Khosravi :
>> Yes I agree.
>> I would prefer to use a sampler re-tuned, it would sound more like  
>> a piano.
>> What's the point of making a purely acoustic piano over an  
>> electronic one if
>> it sounds less like an acoustic piano!
>> Interestingly the pianist lady is complaining about Indian  
>> musicians using
>> keyboards with western tuning and yet she is playing conventional  
>> western
>> harmonies over an "indian backdrop". The residue of a victorian  
>> approach,
>> and what's worse, playing the genuine persona. Sorry but I couldn't  
>> keep
>> quite, it's my pet hate, having lived in Iran where many composers  
>> have a
>> similar mentality, trying to introduce polyphony and harmony into
>> traditional music: the former rarely goes beyond heterophony and  
>> the later
>> steps no further than poorly conceived early romanticism.
>> P
>> On 23 Nov 2009, at 19:44, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
>>
>> This should interest you microtonalists out there. Interesting  
>> idea, but my
>> problem is that it does not sound anything like a piano. I was  
>> trying to
>> think what, harpsichord... clavichord... no, then I thought it's  
>> like a
>> hammered dulcimer. Nice, but not a piano.
>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/video/2009/nov/22/fluid-piano-classical-music
>>
>> Victor
>>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"



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Date2009-11-23 23:01
From"Joe O'Farrell"
Subject[Csnd] Re: [OT] fluid piano... more like a dulcimer
Digging a little deeper, turns out that the hammer dulcimer is  
actually Geoff Smith's main interest - so perhaps it's not so surprising

http://www.dulcimer.co.uk/biog.htm

Joe

www.joeofarrell.com


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Date2009-11-24 12:34
Fromcameron bobro
Subject[Csnd] Re: [OT] fluid piano... more like a dulcimer
The timbre is more like some kind of lyre it is true, but what an awesome instrument!

--- On Mon, 11/23/09, Victor Lazzarini <Victor.Lazzarini@nuim.ie> wrote:

From: Victor Lazzarini <Victor.Lazzarini@nuim.ie>
Subject: [Csnd] [OT] fluid piano... more like a dulcimer
To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 11:44 AM

This should interest you microtonalists out there. Interesting idea, but my problem is that it does not sound anything like a piano. I was trying to think what, harpsichord... clavichord... no, then I thought it's like a hammered dulcimer. Nice, but not a piano.



Date2009-11-24 13:11
FromMichael Gogins
Subject[Csnd] Re: Re: [OT] fluid piano... more like a dulcimer
Fantastic work in that instrument... very significant.

It's true it does not sound like a grand piano, but it is a polyphonic keyboard, and that is what is significant. If there is any possibility of a long term development in alternative tuning systems in harmonic/chordal styles, a true hybrid of east and west, instruments like this are an absolute pre-requisite.

Obviously this kind of thing is something we do in Csound all the time, I have done some work with just intonation myself, but it is very important to do it with physical instruments.

It is even more important to develop the musical styles with integrity. For my part I would like to investigate the mathematical music theory of voice-leading and chord progression operators in spaces with alternative tuning systems, especially ones that both support alternative tunings and some concept of modulation. I'm interested both in systems of modulation based on concepts from Arabic music (maqam-based), and on systems of modulation where fifths are not tempered and so generate a spiral instead of a circle.

For what it is worth, one can always use the Pianoteq VST plugin, which is an excellent physically modeled piano. I wouldn't use it for Chopin if I had a Steinway, but it's a real musical instrument, it does sound like a grand piano (not to mention other things as well), and it does have very good support for alternative tuning systems.

Thanks for the link,
Mike

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 7:34 AM, cameron bobro <misterbobro@yahoo.com> wrote:
The timbre is more like some kind of lyre it is true, but what an awesome instrument!

--- On Mon, 11/23/09, Victor Lazzarini <Victor.Lazzarini@nuim.ie> wrote:

From: Victor Lazzarini <Victor.Lazzarini@nuim.ie>
Subject: [Csnd] [OT] fluid piano... more like a dulcimer
To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 11:44 AM


This should interest you microtonalists out there. Interesting idea, but my problem is that it does not sound anything like a piano. I was trying to think what, harpsichord... clavichord... no, then I thought it's like a hammered dulcimer. Nice, but not a piano.





--
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com

Date2009-11-24 13:23
FromVictor Lazzarini
Subject[Csnd] Re: Re: Re: [OT] fluid piano... more like a dulcimer
There is some recent work on that area by Sethares, Milne et al that looks interesting from a theory point of view.
when I find the links, I'll post here.

Victor

On 24 Nov 2009, at 13:11, Michael Gogins wrote:

It is even more important to develop the musical styles with integrity. For my part I would like to investigate the mathematical music theory of voice-leading and chord progression operators in spaces with alternative tuning systems, especially ones that both support alternative tunings and some concept of modulation. I'm interested both in systems of modulation based on concepts from Arabic music (maqam-based), and on systems of modulation where fifths are not tempered and so generate a spiral instead of a circle.


Date2009-11-24 14:06
Fromcameron bobro
Subject[Csnd] Re: Re: Re: [OT] fluid piano... more like a dulcimer
I think physical limitations can be important artistic elements- the fluid piano works with twelve flexible tones to the octave, or up to 13-16 tones? depending on what precisely is meant by the whole-tone +/- tuning range.

So I think you'd be working with subsets of larger tuning schemes a lot, like the movable frets on a sitar- and this, in my experience, is a good thing for getting microtonal music made without getting bogged down in the sheer number of possible tones. Going through species counterpoint is a good idea too, IMO.

My saz is a cura, the little one, so 19 frets (tied on, movable) to the octave is about the practical limit. I use 17, which is usual, in different tuni ngs. A tanbur will take dozens of frets with ease, but how the heck can I get it on an airplane? :-)



--- On Tue, 11/24/09, Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@gmail.com>
Subject: [Csnd] Re: Re: [OT] fluid piano... more like a dulcimer
To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 5:11 AM

Fantastic work in that instrument... very significant.

It's true it does not sound like a grand piano, but it is a polyphonic keyboard, and that is what is significant. If there is any possibility of a long term development in alternative tuning systems in harmonic/chordal styles, a true hybrid of east and west, instruments like this are an absolute pre-requisite.

Obviously this kind of thing is something we do in Csound all the time, I have done some work with just intonation myself, but it is very important to do it with physical instruments.

It is even more important to develop the musical styles with integrity. For my part I would like to investigate the mathematical music theory of voice-leading and chord progression operators in spaces with alternative tuning systems, especially ones that both support alternative tunings and some concept of modulation. I'm interested both in systems of modulation based on concepts from Arabic music (maqam-based), and on systems of modulation where fifths are not tempered and so generate a spiral instead of a circle.

For what it is worth, one can always use the Pianoteq VST plugin, which is an excellent physically modeled piano. I wouldn't use it for Chopin if I had a Steinway, but it's a real musical instrument, it does sound like a grand piano (not to mention other things as well), and it does have very good support for alternative tuning systems.

Thanks for the link,
Mike

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 7:34 AM, cameron bobro <misterbobro@yahoo.com> wrote:
The timbre is more like some kind of lyre it is true, but what an awesome instrument!

--- On Mon, 11/23/09, Victor Lazzarini <Victor.Lazzarini@nuim.ie> wrote:

From: Victor Lazzarini <Victor.Lazzarini@nuim.ie>
Subject: [Csnd] [OT] fluid piano... more like a dulcimer
To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 11:44 AM


This should interest you microtonalists out there. Interesting idea, but my problem is that it does not sound anything like a piano. I was trying to think what, harpsichord... clavichord... no, then I thought it's like a hammered dulcimer. Nice, but not a piano.





--
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com