[Csnd] Re: Re: Re: Re: teaching csound: textbook, PD, etc

Date	2007-12-06 01:52
From	"Michael Gogins"
Subject	[Csnd] Re: Re: Re: Re: teaching csound: textbook, PD, etc
	I don't think Cabel is fated to be a dead end. It is true, it has not been maintained. It is also true, I tried to turn it into a Python object and enable it for score control, and got frustrated and quite, because it was not designed that way. But somebody willing to spend the time could re-engineer it to be a component and to use the MIDI compatibility flags instead of the MIDI-only opcodes, and it would be very good. Regards, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrea Valle To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 7:04 PM Subject: [Csnd] Re: Re: Re: teaching csound: textbook, PD, etc A pity that Cabel seems to be a dead end. Best -a- On 6 Dec 2007, at 00:56, Chuckk Hubbard wrote: On Dec 6, 2007 12:59 AM, barry threw <bthrew@gmail.com> wrote: i also see that he says: "Csound is better adapted than Pd for batch processing and it handles polyphony much better than Pd does. On the other hand, Pd has a better developed real-time control structure than Csound." is that last statement really true (anymore)? If better means "easier to figure out how to do" then yes, it is still true. I would also say easier to implement. I'm exploring other possibilities than Pd now, but it is still far quicker to hit Ctl-Shift-V and place a vertical slider than it is to type all the necessary FLTK commands, or Tk. Do you want to teach your students how to write FLTK code to construct sliders, or how to manipulate sound? I have always liked Pd too for its data structures and arbitrary drawing of elements, but honestly that's pretty hard to do for anything practical. Probably just as simple to use Tcl/Tk in that case. Pd is useful for showing how stuff works for 2 simple facts: you can see the entire program flow visually, and anything useful you do has to be assembled from the ground up. I tend to prefer Csound even for low-level stuff just because it's quicker to type than to mouse; but as far as others understanding what you're doing, there's something to be said for graphical connections. The algorithms in Csound's higher-level opcodes are completely hidden from those not in the know. I'm not convinced Csound is the best educational tool for all occasions, but for certain subjects and certain students, definitely. I tend to think people who are turned off by sine wave equations will be turned off by code too. Non-csounders who look over my shoulder while I'm using Csound usually have no idea or interest in what I'm doing. But if I were working with pretty motivated and intelligent people, I'd push them towards Csound. How important is real-time control to your class? -Chuckk -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com Send bugs reports to this list. To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound" -------------------------------------------------- Andrea Valle -------------------------------------------------- CIRMA - DAMS Università degli Studi di Torino --> http://www.cirma.unito.it/andrea/ --> andrea.valle@unito.it -------------------------------------------------- I did this interview where I just mentioned that I read Foucault. Who doesn't in university, right? I was in this strip club giving this guy a lap dance and all he wanted to do was to discuss Foucault with me. Well, I can stand naked and do my little dance, or I can discuss Foucault, but not at the same time; too much information. (Annabel Chong)

Date	2007-12-06 09:04
From	Andrea Valle
Subject	[Csnd] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: teaching csound: textbook, PD, etc
	On 6 Dec 2007, at 02:52, Michael Gogins wrote: But somebody willing to spend the time could re-engineer it to be a component and to use the MIDI compatibility flags instead of the MIDI-only opcodes, and it would be very good. Of course, I was meaning: until someone will re-engineer it completely, it is a dead end (the last updare on the site is my contribution of two years ago...) Great UI Best -a- Regards, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrea Valle To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 7:04 PM Subject: [Csnd] Re: Re: Re: teaching csound: textbook, PD, etc A pity that Cabel seems to be a dead end. Best -a- On 6 Dec 2007, at 00:56, Chuckk Hubbard wrote: On Dec 6, 2007 12:59 AM, barry threw <bthrew@gmail.com> wrote: i also see that he says: "Csound is better adapted than Pd for batch processing and it handles polyphony much better than Pd does. On the other hand, Pd has a better developed real-time control structure than Csound." is that last statement really true (anymore)? If better means "easier to figure out how to do" then yes, it is still true. I would also say easier to implement. I'm exploring other possibilities than Pd now, but it is still far quicker to hit Ctl-Shift-V and place a vertical slider than it is to type all the necessary FLTK commands, or Tk. Do you want to teach your students how to write FLTK code to construct sliders, or how to manipulate sound? I have always liked Pd too for its data structures and arbitrary drawing of elements, but honestly that's pretty hard to do for anything practical. Probably just as simple to use Tcl/Tk in that case. Pd is useful for showing how stuff works for 2 simple facts: you can see the entire program flow visually, and anything useful you do has to be assembled from the ground up. I tend to prefer Csound even for low-level stuff just because it's quicker to type than to mouse; but as far as others understanding what you're doing, there's something to be said for graphical connections. The algorithms in Csound's higher-level opcodes are completely hidden from those not in the know. I'm not convinced Csound is the best educational tool for all occasions, but for certain subjects and certain students, definitely. I tend to think people who are turned off by sine wave equations will be turned off by code too. Non-csounders who look over my shoulder while I'm using Csound usually have no idea or interest in what I'm doing. But if I were working with pretty motivated and intelligent people, I'd push them towards Csound. How important is real-time control to your class? -Chuckk -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com Send bugs reports to this list. To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound" -------------------------------------------------- Andrea Valle -------------------------------------------------- CIRMA - DAMS Università degli Studi di Torino --> http://www.cirma.unito.it/andrea/ --> andrea.valle@unito.it -------------------------------------------------- I did this interview where I just mentioned that I read Foucault. Who doesn't in university, right? I was in this strip club giving this guy a lap dance and all he wanted to do was to discuss Foucault with me. Well, I can stand naked and do my little dance, or I can discuss Foucault, but not at the same time; too much information. (Annabel Chong) -------------------------------------------------- Andrea Valle -------------------------------------------------- CIRMA - DAMS Università degli Studi di Torino --> http://www.cirma.unito.it/andrea/ --> andrea.valle@unito.it -------------------------------------------------- I did this interview where I just mentioned that I read Foucault. Who doesn't in university, right? I was in this strip club giving this guy a lap dance and all he wanted to do was to discuss Foucault with me. Well, I can stand naked and do my little dance, or I can discuss Foucault, but not at the same time; too much information. (Annabel Chong)