Hi, I was just curious. It's now been 10 years since the cSound book was 
released. When I first found cs in 2001, obviously, the book was still quite 
new, I just never had the funds then to get it, else I would have. Now, with 
all the recent development in cSound, does the book, for the most part, 
still apply? From what I'm seeing in the language, it hasn't changed that 
much at all, just been added to. How about the cd-rom chapters? and, of 
course, I'm assuming the book's still in print?



thanks,

Arthur





Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

I agree with Anthony. The techniques explored in the book are every
bit as pertinent today as they were when the book first came out.

Rory.


On 3 November 2010 16:25, Anthony Palomba  wrote:
> Absolutely, I am still referring to it when I need to figure something out
> or need some fresh ideas.
>
> Actually, I think it time for a new version (*cough* Boulanger *cough*).
> There are many opcodes, like the pvs family, which are not even covered.
>
>
>
> -ap
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Arthur Pirika  wrote:
>>
>> Hi, I was just curious. It's now been 10 years since the cSound book was
>> released. When I first found cs in 2001, obviously, the book was still quite
>> new, I just never had the funds then to get it, else I would have. Now, with
>> all the recent development in cSound, does the book, for the most part,
>> still apply? From what I'm seeing in the language, it hasn't changed that
>> much at all, just been added to. How about the cd-rom chapters? and, of
>> course, I'm assuming the book's still in print?
>>
>>
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> Arthur
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>
>


Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

If I understand correctly, you are asking if Csound has changed in a way that makes the content of The Csound Book obsolete?  If so - no - Csound is completely backwards compatible, and every example from the book is still able to be rendered.

I still strongly suggest picking it up - it is an amazing reference for a large amount of synthesis concepts, and while the language has been added to a lot over the past 10 years, at the time of publication it was still pretty massive.

Hope this helped!

-Colman

On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Arthur Pirika <arfy32@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi, I was just curious. It's now been 10 years since the cSound book was released. When I first found cs in 2001, obviously, the book was still quite new, I just never had the funds then to get it, else I would have. Now, with all the recent development in cSound, does the book, for the most part, still apply? From what I'm seeing in the language, it hasn't changed that much at all, just been added to. How about the cd-rom chapters? and, of course, I'm assuming the book's still in print?



thanks,

Arthur





Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
          https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

--

Colman O'Reilly | colmanoreilly@gmail.com | www.colmanoreilly.com

While I have used the book quite a lot over the years it's not one I'd
recommend to beginners. I do however find many of the chapters on
common synthesis techniques to be very useful and informative.



On 3 November 2010 23:59, Greg Schroeder  wrote:
> Arthur,
> Don't get it.
> I'm sure the book serves a purpose, but that purpose eludes me.
>
> I am looking at some of the online documentation now and it makes very, very
> much of the csound book look useless to me.
> Between what I see in the FLOSS manual and Jacob Joaquin's website, I don't
> see where the remainder of the book is worth 80, or even 40, USD.
>
> The book (and thus the cd examples) predates the unified .csd format. This
> makes editing and looking at how the score and orchestra relate an enormous
> PITA.
>
> How long have we had .csd files now? Are we presuming folks know enough
> shell scripting or are willing to copy-paste .orc and .sco files together?
>
> The files on the CDs are sorted and named badly, and the html menus one is
> theoretically supposed to use in accessing them are mind-bending. I
> shouldn't need the book's table of contents or to open a text file just to
> know what's in said file.
>
> There are chapters in the book that simply make no sense to me having read
> and done the exercises in the preceding chapters, such as the one on
> synthesizing a french horn w/ wavetables.
> MIDI is largely untouched, realtime control is virtually nonexistent, even
> the elderly FLTK toolkit is completely unaddressed.
>
> I wish I'd gotten something with more general information, and less bragging
> about the one trance dj/producer who uses it, thousands of DX-7 patches (we
> all know how hard *those* are to come by) I can run on a pc now because of
> someone's project that they wanted published, and copies of 6 different
> 10-years-out-of-date IDEs, most of which are no longer maintained, and some
> of which only run on an OS that quite literally stopped development the year
> the book was published.
>
> My binding is also disintegrating around the CD envelopes.
>
> If this sounds insulting, it's because I felt insulted. Someone asked me
> what I wanted as a gift, and the price range was around the same as the
> book. I now have to pretend I use the book, because I can't even sell it
> because of the shitty state of the binding.
> I've opened it maybe 6 times in 2 years.
> Yes, I'm griping about something without doing something about it.
>
> If someone wants to update the book and send me something I'm bitching about
> to work on, I'm all ears.
> My $0.02.
> Greg
>


Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

On 11/3/10 7:59 PM, Greg Schroeder wrote:

> How long have we had .csd files now? Are we presuming folks know 
> enough shell scripting or are willing to copy-paste .orc and .sco 
> files together?
No, but I think it's safe to say people know how to open the text editor 
that comes bundled with every OS. Csound still works with separate .orc 
and .sco files. There's no need to copy and paste or do shell scripts. I 
don't see the issue here.
>
> The files on the CDs are sorted and named badly, and the html menus 
> one is theoretically supposed to use in accessing them are 
> mind-bending. I shouldn't need the book's table of contents or to open 
> a text file just to know what's in said file.
How exactly are they mind-bending? They aren't pretty, but they do what 
they're supposed to do. And really, Csound is like that, too. ;-)
>
> There are chapters in the book that simply make no sense to me having 
> read and done the exercises in the preceding chapters, such as the one 
> on synthesizing a french horn w/ wavetables.
> MIDI is largely untouched, realtime control is virtually nonexistent, 
> even the elderly FLTK toolkit is completely unaddressed.
I agree with you on the french horn wavetable chapter. It seems to 
assume a lot of the reader, and I never made much sense of it. But the 
lack of realtime examples doesn't make the existing content useless. In 
fact, I found Richard Dobson's chapter on flute synthesis quite helpful 
when trying to make a realtime monophonic patch.
>
> I wish I'd gotten something with more general information, and less 
> bragging about the one trance dj/producer who uses it,
I must've overlooked that...
> thousands of DX-7 patches (we all know how hard *those* are to come 
> by) I can run on a pc now because of someone's project that they 
> wanted published, and copies of 6 different 10-years-out-of-date IDEs, 
> most of which are no longer maintained, and some of which only run on 
> an OS that quite literally stopped development the year the book was 
> published.
I just recently moved, and so my book is still packed in a box 
somewhere, but I seem to recall that it clearly states in the book that 
the most recent version of Csound at the time was about 3.04. I don't 
think people who try Csound are so computer illiterate that they won't 
assume none of the frontends have changed between 3.04 and 5.12. That 
may be an assumption on my part, but I don't think it's a stretch. 
Besides, this is common for any book that comes with additional CD content.
>
> My binding is also disintegrating around the CD envelopes.
>
> If this sounds insulting, it's because I felt insulted. Someone asked 
> me what I wanted as a gift, and the price range was around the same as 
> the book.
You didn't even pay for it? You must feel ripped off!
> I now have to pretend I use the book, because I can't even sell it 
> because of the shitty state of the binding.
> I've opened it maybe 6 times in 2 years.
I've had mine for two years, opened it WAY more than six times, and it's 
in pretty good condition. But I bet the content in both our books is the 
same, so this particular gripe is a bit petty. Seriously, it's a 
paperback. It's not going to hold up to gunfire or anything.
> Yes, I'm griping about something without doing something about it.
>
> If someone wants to update the book and send me something I'm bitching 
> about to work on, I'm all ears.
> My $0.02.
> Greg
There's nothing wrong with wanting more up-to-date information; that's 
what these requests for a new edition or "sequel" are all about. But it 
doesn't change the usefulness of the content that's there. I've found 
the book not only to be helpful for learning Csound (and it is 
definitely geared toward a range of skill levels, which is why I keep 
coming back to it later), but for learning synthesis in general.

.mmb


Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

Is that HTML coming from me?
I gave up formatting it, and if it's coming from someone else, please
cut this crap out.
Greg


> Csound still works with separate .orc and .sco files. There's no need to copy and paste or do shell scripts. I don't see the issue here.

Do you do your best work or find it most-illuminating to work with
separate .orc and .sco files?
I find it maddening.

> How exactly are they mind-bending? They aren't pretty, but they do what they're supposed to do. And really, Csound is like that, too. ;-)

The menus use html formats that have been unacceptable so long that I
can't even remember what they're called.
What do they call it when there's a separate box with a separate
scroll 1/4 of the way across the page?


> I agree with you on the french horn wavetable chapter. It seems to assume a lot of the reader, and I never made much sense of it. But the lack of realtime examples doesn't make the existing content useless. In fact, I found Richard Dobson's chapter on flute synthesis quite helpful when trying to make a realtime monophonic patch.

I didn't say all the chapters are abhorrent, I said there are a few
monumental turds.

>> I wish I'd gotten something with more general information, and less bragging about the one trance dj/producer who uses it,
>I must've overlooked that...

I may be mistaken and a couple higher-profile csounders might be
talking about that endlessly outside the book, or there's a passing
reference in the book that is also the subject of much adulation in
online material.
http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/BT-and-Csound-revisited-td1104237.html

> I just recently moved, and so my book is still packed in a box somewhere, but I seem to recall that it clearly states in the book that the most recent version of Csound at the time was about 3.04. I don't think people who try Csound are so computer illiterate that
they won't assume none of the frontends have changed between 3.04 and
5.12. That may be an assumption on my part, but I don't
think it's a stretch. Besides, this is common for any book that comes
with additional CD content.

My gripe is that the book is comically overdue for an overhaul and has
been for a very long time.
I would have greatly preferred one IDE per then-current platform and
perhaps a bit more time making the instrument catalogs navigable, or
even greater in volume with something slightly more noteworthy than a
mess of DX7 patches. It's not a book about DX7s or PM/FM synthesis. It
has one chapter on the subject.

>You didn't even pay for it? You must feel ripped off!
Someone who cares enough about me to spend that much money did pay for
it! Not all of us buy this stuff because it's our job and a tax
writeoff.

> I've had mine for two years, opened it WAY more than six times, and it's in pretty good condition. But I bet the content in both our books is the same, so this particular gripe is a bit petty. Seriously, it's a paperback. It's not going to hold up to gunfire or anything.

Would you like pictures? Seriously? It's been in two apartments, in 2
bookcases, on 2 desks and 2 beds in the 2 years I've had it.
The book I wrote my senior thesis about was a used penguin classic and
the 10-page portion of the book I wrote 25ish pages about is holding
up better than the area around the disc 1 envelope.

Regards,
Greg


Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

Hi,

On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 11:59 PM, Greg Schroeder  wrote:
> How long have we had .csd files now? Are we presuming folks know enough
> shell scripting or are willing to copy-paste .orc and .sco files together?

If you open an orc or sco file in QuteCsound it will automatically
join it with their partner of the same name in a csd file. I believe
WinXsound can also do something similar. So, no need for extra tools
or script coding.

Cheers,
Andres


Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

On 04/11/2010 05:10, Greg Schroeder wrote:
> Is that HTML coming from me? I gave up formatting it, and if it's
> coming from someone else, please cut this crap out. Greg
>
>
>> Csound still works with separate .orc and .sco files. There's no
>> need to copy and paste or do shell scripts. I don't see the issue
>> here.
>
> Do you do your best work or find it most-illuminating to work with
> separate .orc and .sco files?

Short answer - yes.

> I find it maddening.
>

Each to their own, I guess. In the data sonification project I am
currently working on, I have a separate orchestra file with a small but
growing collection of instruments, all taking exactly the same set of
pfields; and I then generate any number of score files (in turn calling
in a set of ftable definitions via #include) based on different data.
The orchestra file in principle remains the same (a glorified preset
collection), while there may in the fullness of time be perhaps 100s of
score files all invoking one or other of the instruments. So the orc/sco
separation is highy convenient, and economical.

So I am not one who finds the csd format automatically the answer to all
prayers!  It may be good for one-file distribution; but for actually
working on stuff ("call me old-fashioned" etc...) I ~always~ use
separate sco and orch files.



Richard Dobson



Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

+0.7

I often geberate scores by C program and so separate sco/orc is a natural
to me.  Yes I coul duse #include or generate the whole orc but that just
seems fiddly

OTOH I usually introduce .csd files to the students.

==JOhn ff

>>
>> Do you do your best work or find it most-illuminating to work with
>> separate .orc and .sco files?
>
> Short answer - yes.
>
>> I find it maddening.
>>
>
> Each to their own, I guess. In the data sonification project I am
> currently working on, I have a separate orchestra file with a small but
> growing collection of instruments, all taking exactly the same set of
> pfields; and I then generate any number of score files (in turn calling
> in a set of ftable definitions via #include) based on different data.
> The orchestra file in principle remains the same (a glorified preset
> collection), while there may in the fullness of time be perhaps 100s of
> score files all invoking one or other of the instruments. So the orc/sco
> separation is highy convenient, and economical.
>
> So I am not one who finds the csd format automatically the answer to all
> prayers!  It may be good for one-file distribution; but for actually
> working on stuff ("call me old-fashioned" etc...) I ~always~ use
> separate sco and orch files.
>
>
>
> Richard Dobson
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>             https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>
>
>
>




Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

Without the csound book I don't see how I could have gotten started  
using csound. I bought it perhaps 5 years ago. I still refer to it  
from time to time, and I still recommend it the rare person I meet who  
asks about csound.

It was and still is a great resource for me (and the binding is  
holding up just fine.)

It's true that csound has evolved since the book came out. But as  
others have said, there's nothing in the book that's wrong, just  
things missing due to the evolution of csound.

It would be nice to see an update to the book, but there are now  
plenty of other resources that cover recent developments. For me, they  
work together with the book to get the job done. And don't forget  
about this fantastic csound list serve - an incredible and responsive  
way to learn about csound.

I don't blame Dr. B for moving beyond the csound book. I wrote a book  
on a non-music topic and after 15 years was asked by the publisher for  
a 2nd edition. For me, revisiting that old book would have been a fate  
worse than death. The book did its job, and life goes on.

-Lou



On Nov 4, 2010, at 12:16 AM, Mike Moser-Booth wrote:

> On 11/3/10 7:59 PM, Greg Schroeder wrote:
> 
>> How long have we had .csd files now? Are we presuming folks know  
>> enough shell scripting or are willing to copy-paste .orc and .sco  
>> files together?
> No, but I think it's safe to say people know how to open the text  
> editor that comes bundled with every OS. Csound still works with  
> separate .orc and .sco files. There's no need to copy and paste or  
> do shell scripts. I don't see the issue here.
>>
>> The files on the CDs are sorted and named badly, and the html menus  
>> one is theoretically supposed to use in accessing them are mind- 
>> bending. I shouldn't need the book's table of contents or to open a  
>> text file just to know what's in said file.
> How exactly are they mind-bending? They aren't pretty, but they do  
> what they're supposed to do. And really, Csound is like that, too. ;-)
>>
>> There are chapters in the book that simply make no sense to me  
>> having read and done the exercises in the preceding chapters, such  
>> as the one on synthesizing a french horn w/ wavetables.
>> MIDI is largely untouched, realtime control is virtually  
>> nonexistent, even the elderly FLTK toolkit is completely unaddressed.
> I agree with you on the french horn wavetable chapter. It seems to  
> assume a lot of the reader, and I never made much sense of it. But  
> the lack of realtime examples doesn't make the existing content  
> useless. In fact, I found Richard Dobson's chapter on flute  
> synthesis quite helpful when trying to make a realtime monophonic  
> patch.
>>
>> I wish I'd gotten something with more general information, and less  
>> bragging about the one trance dj/producer who uses it,
> I must've overlooked that...
>> thousands of DX-7 patches (we all know how hard *those* are to come  
>> by) I can run on a pc now because of someone's project that they  
>> wanted published, and copies of 6 different 10-years-out-of-date  
>> IDEs, most of which are no longer maintained, and some of which  
>> only run on an OS that quite literally stopped development the year  
>> the book was published.
> I just recently moved, and so my book is still packed in a box  
> somewhere, but I seem to recall that it clearly states in the book  
> that the most recent version of Csound at the time was about 3.04. I  
> don't think people who try Csound are so computer illiterate that  
> they won't assume none of the frontends have changed between 3.04  
> and 5.12. That may be an assumption on my part, but I don't think  
> it's a stretch. Besides, this is common for any book that comes with  
> additional CD content.
>>
>> My binding is also disintegrating around the CD envelopes.
>>
>> If this sounds insulting, it's because I felt insulted. Someone  
>> asked me what I wanted as a gift, and the price range was around  
>> the same as the book.
> You didn't even pay for it? You must feel ripped off!
>> I now have to pretend I use the book, because I can't even sell it  
>> because of the shitty state of the binding.
>> I've opened it maybe 6 times in 2 years.
> I've had mine for two years, opened it WAY more than six times, and  
> it's in pretty good condition. But I bet the content in both our  
> books is the same, so this particular gripe is a bit petty.  
> Seriously, it's a paperback. It's not going to hold up to gunfire or  
> anything.
>> Yes, I'm griping about something without doing something about it.
>>
>> If someone wants to update the book and send me something I'm  
>> bitching about to work on, I'm all ears.
>> My $0.02.
>> Greg
> There's nothing wrong with wanting more up-to-date information;  
> that's what these requests for a new edition or "sequel" are all  
> about. But it doesn't change the usefulness of the content that's  
> there. I've found the book not only to be helpful for learning  
> Csound (and it is definitely geared toward a range of skill levels,  
> which is why I keep coming back to it later), but for learning  
> synthesis in general.
>
> .mmb
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"
>



Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

But worry not, a new book on Csound is being planned...


On 4 Nov 2010, at 12:14, Louis Cohen wrote:

> Without the csound book I don't see how I could have gotten started  
> using csound. I bought it perhaps 5 years ago. I still refer to it  
> from time to time, and I still recommend it the rare person I meet  
> who asks about csound.
>
> It was and still is a great resource for me (and the binding is  
> holding up just fine.)
>
> It's true that csound has evolved since the book came out. But as  
> others have said, there's nothing in the book that's wrong, just  
> things missing due to the evolution of csound.
>
> It would be nice to see an update to the book, but there are now  
> plenty of other resources that cover recent developments. For me,  
> they work together with the book to get the job done. And don't  
> forget about this fantastic csound list serve - an incredible and  
> responsive way to learn about csound.
>
> I don't blame Dr. B for moving beyond the csound book. I wrote a  
> book on a non-music topic and after 15 years was asked by the  
> publisher for a 2nd edition. For me, revisiting that old book would  
> have been a fate worse than death. The book did its job, and life  
> goes on.
>
> -Lou
>
>
>
> On Nov 4, 2010, at 12:16 AM, Mike Moser-Booth wrote:
>
>> On 11/3/10 7:59 PM, Greg Schroeder wrote:
>> 
>>> How long have we had .csd files now? Are we presuming folks know  
>>> enough shell scripting or are willing to copy-paste .orc and .sco  
>>> files together?
>> No, but I think it's safe to say people know how to open the text  
>> editor that comes bundled with every OS. Csound still works with  
>> separate .orc and .sco files. There's no need to copy and paste or  
>> do shell scripts. I don't see the issue here.
>>>
>>> The files on the CDs are sorted and named badly, and the html  
>>> menus one is theoretically supposed to use in accessing them are  
>>> mind-bending. I shouldn't need the book's table of contents or to  
>>> open a text file just to know what's in said file.
>> How exactly are they mind-bending? They aren't pretty, but they do  
>> what they're supposed to do. And really, Csound is like that,  
>> too. ;-)
>>>
>>> There are chapters in the book that simply make no sense to me  
>>> having read and done the exercises in the preceding chapters, such  
>>> as the one on synthesizing a french horn w/ wavetables.
>>> MIDI is largely untouched, realtime control is virtually  
>>> nonexistent, even the elderly FLTK toolkit is completely  
>>> unaddressed.
>> I agree with you on the french horn wavetable chapter. It seems to  
>> assume a lot of the reader, and I never made much sense of it. But  
>> the lack of realtime examples doesn't make the existing content  
>> useless. In fact, I found Richard Dobson's chapter on flute  
>> synthesis quite helpful when trying to make a realtime monophonic  
>> patch.
>>>
>>> I wish I'd gotten something with more general information, and  
>>> less bragging about the one trance dj/producer who uses it,
>> I must've overlooked that...
>>> thousands of DX-7 patches (we all know how hard *those* are to  
>>> come by) I can run on a pc now because of someone's project that  
>>> they wanted published, and copies of 6 different 10-years-out-of- 
>>> date IDEs, most of which are no longer maintained, and some of  
>>> which only run on an OS that quite literally stopped development  
>>> the year the book was published.
>> I just recently moved, and so my book is still packed in a box  
>> somewhere, but I seem to recall that it clearly states in the book  
>> that the most recent version of Csound at the time was about 3.04.  
>> I don't think people who try Csound are so computer illiterate that  
>> they won't assume none of the frontends have changed between 3.04  
>> and 5.12. That may be an assumption on my part, but I don't think  
>> it's a stretch. Besides, this is common for any book that comes  
>> with additional CD content.
>>>
>>> My binding is also disintegrating around the CD envelopes.
>>>
>>> If this sounds insulting, it's because I felt insulted. Someone  
>>> asked me what I wanted as a gift, and the price range was around  
>>> the same as the book.
>> You didn't even pay for it? You must feel ripped off!
>>> I now have to pretend I use the book, because I can't even sell it  
>>> because of the shitty state of the binding.
>>> I've opened it maybe 6 times in 2 years.
>> I've had mine for two years, opened it WAY more than six times, and  
>> it's in pretty good condition. But I bet the content in both our  
>> books is the same, so this particular gripe is a bit petty.  
>> Seriously, it's a paperback. It's not going to hold up to gunfire  
>> or anything.
>>> Yes, I'm griping about something without doing something about it.
>>>
>>> If someone wants to update the book and send me something I'm  
>>> bitching about to work on, I'm all ears.
>>> My $0.02.
>>> Greg
>> There's nothing wrong with wanting more up-to-date information;  
>> that's what these requests for a new edition or "sequel" are all  
>> about. But it doesn't change the usefulness of the content that's  
>> there. I've found the book not only to be helpful for learning  
>> Csound (and it is definitely geared toward a range of skill levels,  
>> which is why I keep coming back to it later), but for learning  
>> synthesis in general.
>>
>> .mmb
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>          https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"
>



Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

I've been a Csound user since 1989 and a Csound developer for over 10
years. I do a fair amount of composition and synthesis using Csound,
and rarely use anything else. Disclosure: I contributed 2 chapters to
the CD-ROM that comes with the Csound Book.

In my opinion, the Csound book is a valuable resource, not just for
Csound, but for computer music in general. Like many such books, it is
a "grab bag" of contributions from different sources, aimed at
different levels of expertise. I guess this happens a lot in technical
publishing because no one person is an expert on every facet of a
field, and because for one person to write such a long book on a
technical subject takes a very, very long time. So, I don't think it's
fair to complain that the Csound book doesn't hit the reader's sweet
spot with every chapter.

I also think that Csound itself, as a software system, is not exactly
for people who need things to be easy. It's much more a programming
language, or a toolkit, than it is an application. That makes it
harder to learn the basics, of course, because it assumes that the
user already has at least a half-baked notion of what they want to do
with it.

By the way, I've never seen any of the numerous Csound tutorials that
finds universal approval for beginners to get oriented with Csound.

I'm not denying the need for such a thing! I'm sure Csound would be
much more widely used if the gate were not so straight and narrow. I'd
guess the best approach, actually, would be to beef up QuteCsound or
some other front end with a better and more transparent set of
examples with a tutorial in the help system to accompany them, so that
obtaining an introduction to Csound would be done by actually running
it without having to do too much setup. I think the Python tutorial in
the Python help file is an excellent example of how to do this.

Regards,
Mike







On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 8:14 AM, Louis Cohen  wrote:
> Without the csound book I don't see how I could have gotten started using
> csound. I bought it perhaps 5 years ago. I still refer to it from time to
> time, and I still recommend it the rare person I meet who asks about csound.
>
> It was and still is a great resource for me (and the binding is holding up
> just fine.)
>
> It's true that csound has evolved since the book came out. But as others
> have said, there's nothing in the book that's wrong, just things missing due
> to the evolution of csound.
>
> It would be nice to see an update to the book, but there are now plenty of
> other resources that cover recent developments. For me, they work together
> with the book to get the job done. And don't forget about this fantastic
> csound list serve - an incredible and responsive way to learn about csound.
>
> I don't blame Dr. B for moving beyond the csound book. I wrote a book on a
> non-music topic and after 15 years was asked by the publisher for a 2nd
> edition. For me, revisiting that old book would have been a fate worse than
> death. The book did its job, and life goes on.
>
> -Lou
>
>
>
> On Nov 4, 2010, at 12:16 AM, Mike Moser-Booth wrote:
>
>> On 11/3/10 7:59 PM, Greg Schroeder wrote:
>> 
>>>
>>> How long have we had .csd files now? Are we presuming folks know enough
>>> shell scripting or are willing to copy-paste .orc and .sco files together?
>>
>> No, but I think it's safe to say people know how to open the text editor
>> that comes bundled with every OS. Csound still works with separate .orc and
>> .sco files. There's no need to copy and paste or do shell scripts. I don't
>> see the issue here.
>>>
>>> The files on the CDs are sorted and named badly, and the html menus one
>>> is theoretically supposed to use in accessing them are mind-bending. I
>>> shouldn't need the book's table of contents or to open a text file just to
>>> know what's in said file.
>>
>> How exactly are they mind-bending? They aren't pretty, but they do what
>> they're supposed to do. And really, Csound is like that, too. ;-)
>>>
>>> There are chapters in the book that simply make no sense to me having
>>> read and done the exercises in the preceding chapters, such as the one on
>>> synthesizing a french horn w/ wavetables.
>>> MIDI is largely untouched, realtime control is virtually nonexistent,
>>> even the elderly FLTK toolkit is completely unaddressed.
>>
>> I agree with you on the french horn wavetable chapter. It seems to assume
>> a lot of the reader, and I never made much sense of it. But the lack of
>> realtime examples doesn't make the existing content useless. In fact, I
>> found Richard Dobson's chapter on flute synthesis quite helpful when trying
>> to make a realtime monophonic patch.
>>>
>>> I wish I'd gotten something with more general information, and less
>>> bragging about the one trance dj/producer who uses it,
>>
>> I must've overlooked that...
>>>
>>> thousands of DX-7 patches (we all know how hard *those* are to come by) I
>>> can run on a pc now because of someone's project that they wanted published,
>>> and copies of 6 different 10-years-out-of-date IDEs, most of which are no
>>> longer maintained, and some of which only run on an OS that quite literally
>>> stopped development the year the book was published.
>>
>> I just recently moved, and so my book is still packed in a box somewhere,
>> but I seem to recall that it clearly states in the book that the most recent
>> version of Csound at the time was about 3.04. I don't think people who try
>> Csound are so computer illiterate that they won't assume none of the
>> frontends have changed between 3.04 and 5.12. That may be an assumption on
>> my part, but I don't think it's a stretch. Besides, this is common for any
>> book that comes with additional CD content.
>>>
>>> My binding is also disintegrating around the CD envelopes.
>>>
>>> If this sounds insulting, it's because I felt insulted. Someone asked me
>>> what I wanted as a gift, and the price range was around the same as the
>>> book.
>>
>> You didn't even pay for it? You must feel ripped off!
>>>
>>> I now have to pretend I use the book, because I can't even sell it
>>> because of the shitty state of the binding.
>>> I've opened it maybe 6 times in 2 years.
>>
>> I've had mine for two years, opened it WAY more than six times, and it's
>> in pretty good condition. But I bet the content in both our books is the
>> same, so this particular gripe is a bit petty. Seriously, it's a paperback.
>> It's not going to hold up to gunfire or anything.
>>>
>>> Yes, I'm griping about something without doing something about it.
>>>
>>> If someone wants to update the book and send me something I'm bitching
>>> about to work on, I'm all ears.
>>> My $0.02.
>>> Greg
>>
>> There's nothing wrong with wanting more up-to-date information; that's
>> what these requests for a new edition or "sequel" are all about. But it
>> doesn't change the usefulness of the content that's there. I've found the
>> book not only to be helpful for learning Csound (and it is definitely geared
>> toward a range of skill levels, which is why I keep coming back to it
>> later), but for learning synthesis in general.
>>
>> .mmb
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>          https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>
>



-- 
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

The tutorial I finally sank my teeth into *is* on the cd-rom, but I used 
it online.
Allan Schindler's is about as logical and gentle as I've found.
ymmv
Greg


Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

i completely agree with lou.
the csound book brought really "new prespectives". i can say this for  
me personally, and i know it from many other people. it is an immense  
work, at first from richard, and from all the authors. it is not  
obsolete because of the decade since then and because of the many new  
developments of csound in this time (they are good for csound but not  
bad for the book). there are many articles which are still giving  
advice and inspirations in many situations.
i feel that all we do now in teaching csound, is in many ways based on  
the csound book. i'd love to see a new edition of it, and i hope it  
will come soon. other resources, like floss, can be adapted more  
quickly to new features because they are web and wiki based, but the  
csound book has its unique quality of going deep in many subjects.
so, please, coexistence of different sources, which hopefully work  
"together with the book to get the job done".
	
	joachim


Am 04.11.2010 um 13:14 schrieb Louis Cohen:

> Without the csound book I don't see how I could have gotten started  
> using csound. I bought it perhaps 5 years ago. I still refer to it  
> from time to time, and I still recommend it the rare person I meet  
> who asks about csound.
>
> It was and still is a great resource for me (and the binding is  
> holding up just fine.)
>
> It's true that csound has evolved since the book came out. But as  
> others have said, there's nothing in the book that's wrong, just  
> things missing due to the evolution of csound.
>
> It would be nice to see an update to the book, but there are now  
> plenty of other resources that cover recent developments. For me,  
> they work together with the book to get the job done. And don't  
> forget about this fantastic csound list serve - an incredible and  
> responsive way to learn about csound.
>
> I don't blame Dr. B for moving beyond the csound book. I wrote a  
> book on a non-music topic and after 15 years was asked by the  
> publisher for a 2nd edition. For me, revisiting that old book would  
> have been a fate worse than death. The book did its job, and life  
> goes on.
>
> -Lou
>
>
>
> On Nov 4, 2010, at 12:16 AM, Mike Moser-Booth wrote:
>
>> On 11/3/10 7:59 PM, Greg Schroeder wrote:
>> 
>>> How long have we had .csd files now? Are we presuming folks know  
>>> enough shell scripting or are willing to copy-paste .orc and .sco  
>>> files together?
>> No, but I think it's safe to say people know how to open the text  
>> editor that comes bundled with every OS. Csound still works with  
>> separate .orc and .sco files. There's no need to copy and paste or  
>> do shell scripts. I don't see the issue here.
>>>
>>> The files on the CDs are sorted and named badly, and the html  
>>> menus one is theoretically supposed to use in accessing them are  
>>> mind-bending. I shouldn't need the book's table of contents or to  
>>> open a text file just to know what's in said file.
>> How exactly are they mind-bending? They aren't pretty, but they do  
>> what they're supposed to do. And really, Csound is like that,  
>> too. ;-)
>>>
>>> There are chapters in the book that simply make no sense to me  
>>> having read and done the exercises in the preceding chapters, such  
>>> as the one on synthesizing a french horn w/ wavetables.
>>> MIDI is largely untouched, realtime control is virtually  
>>> nonexistent, even the elderly FLTK toolkit is completely  
>>> unaddressed.
>> I agree with you on the french horn wavetable chapter. It seems to  
>> assume a lot of the reader, and I never made much sense of it. But  
>> the lack of realtime examples doesn't make the existing content  
>> useless. In fact, I found Richard Dobson's chapter on flute  
>> synthesis quite helpful when trying to make a realtime monophonic  
>> patch.
>>>
>>> I wish I'd gotten something with more general information, and  
>>> less bragging about the one trance dj/producer who uses it,
>> I must've overlooked that...
>>> thousands of DX-7 patches (we all know how hard *those* are to  
>>> come by) I can run on a pc now because of someone's project that  
>>> they wanted published, and copies of 6 different 10-years-out-of- 
>>> date IDEs, most of which are no longer maintained, and some of  
>>> which only run on an OS that quite literally stopped development  
>>> the year the book was published.
>> I just recently moved, and so my book is still packed in a box  
>> somewhere, but I seem to recall that it clearly states in the book  
>> that the most recent version of Csound at the time was about 3.04.  
>> I don't think people who try Csound are so computer illiterate that  
>> they won't assume none of the frontends have changed between 3.04  
>> and 5.12. That may be an assumption on my part, but I don't think  
>> it's a stretch. Besides, this is common for any book that comes  
>> with additional CD content.
>>>
>>> My binding is also disintegrating around the CD envelopes.
>>>
>>> If this sounds insulting, it's because I felt insulted. Someone  
>>> asked me what I wanted as a gift, and the price range was around  
>>> the same as the book.
>> You didn't even pay for it? You must feel ripped off!
>>> I now have to pretend I use the book, because I can't even sell it  
>>> because of the shitty state of the binding.
>>> I've opened it maybe 6 times in 2 years.
>> I've had mine for two years, opened it WAY more than six times, and  
>> it's in pretty good condition. But I bet the content in both our  
>> books is the same, so this particular gripe is a bit petty.  
>> Seriously, it's a paperback. It's not going to hold up to gunfire  
>> or anything.
>>> Yes, I'm griping about something without doing something about it.
>>>
>>> If someone wants to update the book and send me something I'm  
>>> bitching about to work on, I'm all ears.
>>> My $0.02.
>>> Greg
>> There's nothing wrong with wanting more up-to-date information;  
>> that's what these requests for a new edition or "sequel" are all  
>> about. But it doesn't change the usefulness of the content that's  
>> there. I've found the book not only to be helpful for learning  
>> Csound (and it is definitely geared toward a range of skill levels,  
>> which is why I keep coming back to it later), but for learning  
>> synthesis in general.
>>
>> .mmb
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>>          https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
>           https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>



Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
            https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"