Two years from Csound neophyte to exhausting the resources of the Book? Why is he waiting for someone else to write the next edition?

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-----Original Message-----
From: Robert or Gretchen Foose
Sent:  05/11/2010 2:48:23 am
Subject:  [Csnd] re csound book gripes

Hi Greg,
I've had my copy of the book for perhaps six years now.  I've 
not ready every chapter (eg. the french horn one) but the 
chapters I've read I have reread many many times (Hilites are in 
three colors, plus margin notes in two different pens, and three 
pencil lead sizes, if that give you a clue) and the cover is 
still firmly attached.  Of course I permanently removed the CD 
envelope the day I got the book, so that may be a factor.  As to 
the content...I too find it lamentable that there has not been 
an updated, revised, more current-practice edition of the book. 
  On the other hand, if you think in terms of instruments, quite 
a lot of good music is still being created using 'primitive' 
pre-twentieth century strads, etc., so the synthesis materials 
and concepts of the book are still valuable in at least showing 
a fundamental approach to how synthesis in its purest form can 
be used.  You mention Jacob Joaquin, whose articles and blogs 
are very enlightening..but he himself has presented some 
interesting pieces that could have been rendered in csound 4.xx. 
  So, my position, I guess, is that of balancing between an 
appreciation of the effort and value of the book and the csound 
it presents, and a desire to see similar materials about the 
hundreds of new opcodes introduced since then.  And especially 
articles that go beyond the trivial 'here's an example of using 
'xxxx' to modulate a sine wave'.  In his blog, Jake refers to 
Kim Cascone's article, which talks about creating a real piece 
of music.  Surely anyone who composes with csound has a piece 
that he or she could write about.  Even if it only uses sine 
waves and linsegs, talking about why the choices were made could 
be informative.  And so how much more  would articles by the 
people who developed the new opcodes, presumably to answer some 
compositional need for them.  Give us your piece, and show us 
how you used what you did to create it.  I'd hope that a three 
volume set would be possible..and if it were, I know I'd buy 
it!!  In the meantime, Dr. B's still yields new ideas for me.
Bob Foose


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@ Mr. O'Foose
How does one remove the envelope from the binding the way you're describing?
The envelope seems to go into the spine with the other pages, which is
where it's pulling out the other pages.
The problem is where the envelope goes into the binding, which won't
get better by just cutting out the envelope.

@Mr. O'Farrell and O'Foose

I offered an honest opinion to someone. I wish I'd gotten something
else, and told him why. I'm sure there's lots of opinions around here
that somebody thinks is stupid.

Greg


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Greg Schroeder wrote:
> @Mr. O'Farrell and O'Foose
>
> I offered an honest opinion to someone. I wish I'd gotten something
> else, and told him why. I'm sure there's lots of opinions around here
> that somebody thinks is stupid.
>   

Hi Greg,

Just check the archives, you can look for my posts. I've said plenty of 
stupid things here, and they haven't tossed me out yet. :)

On a more relevant note: I can recommend the Virtual Sound 
(Bianchini/Cipriani) book if you'd like a less exhaustive tome that is 
more of a beginner's tutorial. If you can read Spanish you can get Oscar 
Pablo de Liscia's book, it's also a directed tutorial.

You're not the first person who discovered that the Csound Book is not 
necessarily a best beginner's guide. However, I'll never let go of my 
copy, and I continue to find new resources and inspiration between its 
covers (and I've been working with Csound for more than 20 years). You 
are of course entitled to your opinion, but I suggest that after a few 
months working on some of the introductory stuff perhaps you'll take 
another look at the book and see it with a better perspective.

Best,

dp



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On 5 Nov 2010, at 04:57, Greg Schroeder wrote:

> I'm sure there's lots of opinions around here
> that somebody thinks is stupid.

No one used the word "stupid", did they?

The problem is not your opinion - to which you are of course entitled  
- but the very abusive language in which you chose to express it. To  
appear so dismissive of the hard work and generosity of so many  
contributors is not going to win you many friends - particularly in a  
forum in which most (if not all) participate.

That said - if you gave some indication of what you are looking for,  
someone here could point you in the direction of resources that might  
suit your current needs. Csound, like any other instrument - and,  
yes, it IS an instrument - takes time and patience to learn. This may  
not suit today's culture of instant gratification, but if anything of  
value is to be produced, a bit of work is essential. Then again, I'm  
old-fashioned enough to think that even LISTENING to music should  
involve a bit of effort - never mind writing and performing it.

The Csound Book is not something you really "get to the end of" -  
rather a collection of resources that offers a number of different  
perspectives, as it clearly states on the cover, and as Dr B makes  
clear in the introduction. It's a symposium, not a tutorial. It never  
set out to be a beginners' guide - apart from the first chapter. If I  
pick up a book describing itself as an introduction to calculus, say,  
I would not expect it to start by teaching me basic algebra. So with  
the Csound book. I certainly haven't read it from cover to cover, but  
have read (and re-read) certain sections very carefully. It is all a  
matter of what I'm trying to achieve at a particular time - some  
parts are relevant, others totally irrelevant - but which are which  
could change tomorrow, or next week, or in ten years' time…

This is nothing new. Brendel recorded the Beethoven sonatas three  
times, for example, but are the later recordings "better" than the  
earlier? Of course not - they simply reveal how his interpretation  
changed and developed over the years. Once again, the key word is  
"perspective".

Yes, a new edition of the Csound Book would be welcome - but imagine  
the screams from all sides if we had to replace it every couple of  
years just because the software is in a state of continuous  
development. Be thankful that the book DOES deal more in generalities  
than specifics (unless of course your benefactor has very deep pockets…)

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Joe O'Farrell wrote:
> ...  I'm old-fashioned enough to think that even LISTENING to music 
> should involve a bit of effort - never mind writing and performing it...

Geez, Joe, are you like in your 40s or something ?!  ;)

Best,

dp



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I don't know why guys gets so worked up about this. There seems to be
a lack of respect for the contributors of the book. I am fairly new to
Csound. I have been dabbling in music production for 6 years and with
Csound for about the last two or so years. I have the outmost respect
for minds like Dr B and the other contributors. Sure it's frustrating
that some of the scores from the book don't always run with the new
releases of CSound. But that's no reason to go shouting about the
place and stuff.

Have some respect for the contributors, and keep an eye on all the
forums and blogs for new opcodes and examples. Everyone is extremely
helpful on this list, and I would be so stuck without their feedback
and responses. Thumbs up to you guys for all the hard work.


On 11/5/10, Dave Phillips  wrote:
> Joe O'Farrell wrote:
>> ...  I'm old-fashioned enough to think that even LISTENING to music
>> should involve a bit of effort - never mind writing and performing it...
>
> Geez, Joe, are you like in your 40s or something ?!  ;)
>
> Best,
>
> dp
>
>
>
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> csound"
>
>


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To be fair to Greg, I don't think showed any disrespect to the authors
who contributed to the Csound book...

On 5 November 2010 15:00, gary hiebner  wrote:
> I don't know why guys gets so worked up about this. There seems to be
> a lack of respect for the contributors of the book. I am fairly new to
> Csound. I have been dabbling in music production for 6 years and with
> Csound for about the last two or so years. I have the outmost respect
> for minds like Dr B and the other contributors. Sure it's frustrating
> that some of the scores from the book don't always run with the new
> releases of CSound. But that's no reason to go shouting about the
> place and stuff.
>
> Have some respect for the contributors, and keep an eye on all the
> forums and blogs for new opcodes and examples. Everyone is extremely
> helpful on this list, and I would be so stuck without their feedback
> and responses. Thumbs up to you guys for all the hard work.
>
>
> On 11/5/10, Dave Phillips  wrote:
>> Joe O'Farrell wrote:
>>> ...  I'm old-fashioned enough to think that even LISTENING to music
>>> should involve a bit of effort - never mind writing and performing it...
>>
>> Geez, Joe, are you like in your 40s or something ?!  ;)
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> dp
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
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>


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On 5 Nov 2010, at 13:19, Dave Phillips wrote:

> Geez, Joe, are you like in your 40s or something ?!  ;)

Older than I look…   (I hope)


…younger than I feel…    unfortunately

At least MY spine is still bearing up reasonably well  ;-)

J

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I thought so too.
(shrug)
Greg

Rory Walsh wrote:
> To be fair to Greg, I don't think showed any disrespect to the authors
> who contributed to the Csound book...
>    


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Greg, actually, I did cut the disk envelope out of the book 
(carefully).  The part that's bound into the cover is still 
there.  I guess not having the disk there removes stress on the 
cover..or perhaps I just got lucky.
Bob

On 13:59, Greg Schroeder wrote:
> @ Mr. O'Foose
> How does one remove the envelope from the binding the way you're describing?
> The envelope seems to go into the spine with the other pages, which is
> where it's pulling out the other pages.
> The problem is where the envelope goes into the binding, which won't
> get better by just cutting out the envelope.
>
> @Mr. O'Farrell and O'Foose
>
> I offered an honest opinion to someone. I wish I'd gotten something
> else, and told him why. I'm sure there's lots of opinions around here
> that somebody thinks is stupid.
>
> Greg
>


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Ditto on 'Virtual Sound'..it covers a lot of basic synthesis 
techniques a bit more exhaustively then the Csound Book's 
articles, which seem to range over a larger area, but in greater 
depth per article (except for Chapters one, six and eleven, 
which helped me a lot.)  On the other hand, it too is 'out of 
date' in terms of Csound's current capabilities, and the 
accompanying disk files are .orc/.sco (in my copy).  The 
accompanying software is usable, but not great, too.  But as I 
remarked in a previous post, both books offer plenty of ideas to 
explore until a newer book comes along.   Also, as Jake mentions 
in his blog, analyzing and diagramming the examples files will 
probably do more to get you 'into' csound than any book by 
itself.  Just like an analog, or acoustic, instrument, you have 
to learn the basics and then build from there to create your own 
mastery of its capabilities.  And now, at least the manual has 
lots more example material than it did, which will help too.
Bob

On 13:59, Dave Phillips wrote:
> Greg Schroeder wrote:
>> @Mr. O'Farrell and O'Foose
>>
>> I offered an honest opinion to someone. I wish I'd gotten
>> something
>> else, and told him why. I'm sure there's lots of opinions
>> around here
>> that somebody thinks is stupid.
>
> Hi Greg,
>
> Just check the archives, you can look for my posts. I've said
> plenty of stupid things here, and they haven't tossed me out
> yet. :)
>
> On a more relevant note: I can recommend the Virtual Sound
> (Bianchini/Cipriani) book if you'd like a less exhaustive tome
> that is more of a beginner's tutorial. If you can read Spanish
> you can get Oscar Pablo de Liscia's book, it's also a directed
> tutorial.
>
> You're not the first person who discovered that the Csound Book
> is not necessarily a best beginner's guide. However, I'll never
> let go of my copy, and I continue to find new resources and
> inspiration between its covers (and I've been working with
> Csound for more than 20 years). You are of course entitled to
> your opinion, but I suggest that after a few months working on
> some of the introductory stuff perhaps you'll take another look
> at the book and see it with a better perspective.
>
> Best,
>
> dp
>
>


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Thanks.
I ultimately pulled the envelopes out of the binding carefully, crazy 
glued back in the pages that came with it (carefully at the spine) and 
put it under a bunch of heavy stuff. We'll see. (shrug)

Thanks for the tips, folks.

Greg


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Yes, another excellent book, with a barebones but adequate 
introduction to csound basics.  But mainly of use to those 
trying to emulate brass and woodwinds through synthesis.  For 
this it is especially good, and the code, which is well beyond 
basid stuff, yields very believable synthesis of those 
instruments.  It's also another book that might be updated, but 
if not that, then at least a sequel dealing with synthesis of 
strings and percussion, to yield a complete treatment of a 
synthetic orchestra.  At any rate, For what it covers it is the 
best I've seen.
Bob Foose

On 13:59, Lars Indrek Hansson wrote:
> I just felt I had to contribute my opinion about this topic.
>
> I definitely think that the Csound book still has a lot to offer
> both to the newbies and more advanced. Some of the
> stuff in it is more or less timeless basics, like the survey of
> various forms of synthesis, other chapters deal with
> more csound specific subjects.
>
> I benefited most certainly from the book. As a newbie, never
> having programmed before, the manual is a bit abstract
> sometimes and doesn´t talk the language of the beginners. The
> book unfolds things and makes the learning go faster.
> Many of the chapters I´ve delved deeper into and been amply
> rewarded. I personally enjoyed the chapter on the FOF and
> FOG-generators very much.
>
> The biggest flaw is of course the total neglection of real time
> synthesis. Real time was possible already when the book
> was released, so it should have been mentioned somehow. I gather
> that some real time stuff was on the accompanying
> CD´s but it deserves an own chapter. Most of the techniques in
> the book are of course applicable in real time patches as well,
> but if a new edition is round the corner it should be updated
> with extensive chapters on real time audio, Fltk and all the
> rest that is
> missing in the old book. I still haven´t read all the chapters
> but I´m intent on doing it and look forward to it.
>
> I once stumbled across a book named "Cooking with csound",
> somewhere on the net. Does anyone out there know anything
> about it?
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Lars
>
>
>
>
>  > Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 17:46:22 +0900
>  > From: gmschroeder@gmail.com
>  > To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>  > Subject: [Csnd] Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: re csound book gripes
>  >
>  > Thanks.
>  > I ultimately pulled the envelopes out of the binding
> carefully, crazy
>  > glued back in the pages that came with it (carefully at the
> spine) and
>  > put it under a bunch of heavy stuff. We'll see. (shrug)
>  >
>  > Thanks for the tips, folks.
>  >
>  > Greg
>  >
>  >
>  > Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
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>  > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>  > To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
> "unsubscribe csound"
>  >


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Lars Indrek Hansson wrote:
>
> I once stumbled across a book named "Cooking with csound", somewhere 
> on the net. Does anyone out there know anything about it?

I've been interested in it for a long while, but its cost is 
prohibitive. It needs reprinted and sold for an affordable price.

It's listed on Google Books, a good preview selection is available. It's 
out of print, but Amazon has a used copy (paperback, ~220 pages) listed 
for ~$200.00US. Ouch.

Best,

dp



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> Lars Indrek Hansson wrote:
>>
>> I once stumbled across a book named "Cooking with csound", somewhere
>> on the net. Does anyone out there know anything about it?
>
> I've been interested in it for a long while, but its cost is
> prohibitive. It needs reprinted and sold for an affordable price.
>
> It's listed on Google Books, a good preview selection is available. It's
> out of print, but Amazon has a used copy (paperback, ~220 pages) listed
> for ~$200.00US. Ouch.
>

Wow!  I have a pre-publication draft on my shelves and I usually play some
examples to the Music/DSP class.  One day I will get a strudent to redo
the ideas in FOSS, maybe.....

==John ff





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Yes, please!

jpff@cs.bath.ac.uk wrote:
>> Lars Indrek Hansson wrote:
>>      
>>> I once stumbled across a book named "Cooking with csound", somewhere
>>> on the net. Does anyone out there know anything about it?
>>>        
>> I've been interested in it for a long while, but its cost is
>> prohibitive. It needs reprinted and sold for an affordable price.
>>
>> It's listed on Google Books, a good preview selection is available. It's
>> out of print, but Amazon has a used copy (paperback, ~220 pages) listed
>> for ~$200.00US. Ouch.
>>
>>      
> Wow!  I have a pre-publication draft on my shelves and I usually play some
> examples to the Music/DSP class.  One day I will get a strudent to redo
> the ideas in FOSS, maybe.....
>
> ==John ff
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>    



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Used book sellers use a program that sets prices on Amazon. Usually it just sets a price near what other's are selling the book for. One of the things the program does is that if you are the only one with a copy for sale (ie. it has no other prices to compare for that title), it sets a crazy high price, just in case it is a collector's item.  So that if more people start offering the same (now inflated in value) book on Amazon, the new prices end up being based on the previous erroneous output of the algorithm. It is common to find obscure but not really that valuable out of print books with stupid pricetags insuring the book will not sell on Amazon because of this dynamic.

Lars Indrek Hansson wrote:
> That´s funny. I don´t remember it being that expensive, since I almost considered buying it. I payed about 
> 60 euro for The csound book seven years ago and thought ist was expensive then. But after all think of all 
> the Max users that have to pay for the software. We csounders don´t so why not buy a book for (a part of) the 
> money instead?
>  
> Sounds like something for me though. I´m not exactly interested in emulating acoustic instruments, but I like sounds 
> that sound organic. You can tweak them till they sound like something quite different but still retain their organic feel. 
>  
> Lars
> 
>  
>> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 06:16:05 -0500
>> From: dlphillips@woh.rr.com
>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>> Subject: [Csnd] Re: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: re csound book gripes
>>
>> Lars Indrek Hansson wrote:
>>> I once stumbled across a book named "Cooking with csound", somewhere 
>>> on the net. Does anyone out there know anything about it?
>> I've been interested in it for a long while, but its cost is 
>> prohibitive. It needs reprinted and sold for an affordable price.
>>
>> It's listed on Google Books, a good preview selection is available. It's 
>> out of print, but Amazon has a used copy (paperback, ~220 pages) listed 
>> for ~$200.00US. Ouch.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> dp
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker
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>>
>  		 	   		  
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> 
> 



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Lars Indrek Hansson wrote:
> ...
>  
> I once stumbled across a book named "Cooking with csound", somewhere 
> on the net. Does anyone out there know anything
> about it?

Just a quick update. I found that the book is still available from A-R 
Editions, I think you can find it on Amazon. It cost ~US$54, and I must 
say that it is a handsome book. Lots of code listings - all included on 
the accompanying CD - and an enjoyable writing style make it an 
easily-readable book, but I'm not sure I'd recommend it to a complete 
beginner. I'm still getting into though, so my opinion isn't worth much 
at this point.

Btw, I'm making a list of books about Csound. So far I've included the 
following items:

The Csound Book - Boulanger, ed.
Virtual Sound - Bianchini/Cipriani (also available in Italian)
Generacion y procesamiento de sonido y musica a traves del programa 
Csound - Di Liscia
Cooking With Csound, Part 1 - Horner/Ayers

Anything else I should add ? I'm not including books such as Curtis 
Roads' tomes or the Dodge/Jerse book, I'm only listing Csound-specific 
books for now.

Please advise if there any such books in German or French.

Best,

dp



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I have the book. I use some of the instruments, specially the French
horn simulation. The instrument designs are pretty simple, mostly just
wavetables, but they have been exhaustively tweaked with reference to
actual instrument sounds, and they are very efficient. Also, the
instruments are designed to work together. I'm not sure the book is
not for beginners - it would be very useful to somebody is just
starting, but is serious about making good sounds in Csound. Certainly
most people who actually use Csound as part of their regular music
production workflow should have this book.

Regards,
Mike

On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 7:45 AM, Dave Phillips  wrote:
> Lars Indrek Hansson wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>  I once stumbled across a book named "Cooking with csound", somewhere on
>> the net. Does anyone out there know anything
>> about it?
>
> Just a quick update. I found that the book is still available from A-R
> Editions, I think you can find it on Amazon. It cost ~US$54, and I must say
> that it is a handsome book. Lots of code listings - all included on the
> accompanying CD - and an enjoyable writing style make it an easily-readable
> book, but I'm not sure I'd recommend it to a complete beginner. I'm still
> getting into though, so my opinion isn't worth much at this point.
>
> Btw, I'm making a list of books about Csound. So far I've included the
> following items:
>
> The Csound Book - Boulanger, ed.
> Virtual Sound - Bianchini/Cipriani (also available in Italian)
> Generacion y procesamiento de sonido y musica a traves del programa Csound -
> Di Liscia
> Cooking With Csound, Part 1 - Horner/Ayers
>
> Anything else I should add ? I'm not including books such as Curtis Roads'
> tomes or the Dodge/Jerse book, I'm only listing Csound-specific books for
> now.
>
> Please advise if there any such books in German or French.
>
> Best,
>
> dp
>
>
>
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>



-- 
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


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