Re: [Csnd] the "shimmer/sheen" of a violin

Re: [Csnd] the "shimmer/sheen" of a violin

Date	2012-01-16 03:17
From	"Partev Barr Sarkissian"
Subject	Re: [Csnd] the "shimmer/sheen" of a violin
	Probably the result of one kind of string rubbing against another kind of string, vibrations transferring into a resonating cavity, then out through the sound-box. There are some waveguide (modeling) opcodes to cover strings--- "streson"- a string resonator "wgbow"- bowed string tone waveguide I've only briefly explored these, might be a good start. After that, I guess it's just finding the right filter responses to dial in the spectral aspects. -Partev ============================================================= --- dennis.raddle@gmail.com wrote: From: Dennis Raddle To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk Subject: [Csnd] the "shimmer/sheen" of a violin Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 18:59:56 -0800 I'm doing some experiments with pvs analysis of instruments and reducing them to gen10 tables which I play back with oscili. For instance, a violin. I realize there is much inharmonic energy in the violin. In particular, I'm interested in the beautiful sheen/shimmer in the high harmonics. This disappears when I play it back with a purely harmonic spectrum... there is still high-frequency energy there, but sounds like a power drill. So what I'd like to know is, is there a simple model that produces the shimmer? It doesn't have to be an exact physical model; I'm wondering if there is something simple that imitates it. Maybe granular synthesis? Dennis _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599 Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

Date	2012-01-16 11:53
From	peiman khosravi
Subject	Re: [Csnd] the "shimmer/sheen" of a violin
	I would have thought this is related to the string's increasing stiffness near the bridge, although I am just guessing. Note that the closer you move towards the bridge the more inharmonic the sound becomes. Warning: rant follows! It's interesting that inharmonicity is just as much involved in all musical sounds as harmonicity (musical sounds but not so much musical structures). Take the transient portion for instance. Students are still baffled when I play them a vibraphone without the attack, is it a flute? Bowed cymbal? French Horn!? I would suggest that reducing a complex musical sound to a temporally invariant and purely harmonic model is a near-criminal activity :-) Best, Peiman On 16 January 2012 03:17, Partev Barr Sarkissian <encino_man@netscape.com> wrote: Probably the result of one kind of string rubbing against another kind of string, vibrations transferring into a resonating cavity, then out through the sound-box. There are some waveguide (modeling) opcodes to cover strings--- "streson"- a string resonator "wgbow"- bowed string tone waveguide I've only briefly explored these, might be a good start. After that, I guess it's just finding the right filter responses to dial in the spectral aspects. -Partev ============================================================= --- dennis.raddle@gmail.com wrote: From: Dennis Raddle <dennis.raddle@gmail.com> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk Subject: [Csnd] the "shimmer/sheen" of a violin Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 18:59:56 -0800 I'm doing some experiments with pvs analysis of instruments and reducing them to gen10 tables which I play back with oscili. For instance, a violin. I realize there is much inharmonic energy in the violin. In particular, I'm interested in the beautiful sheen/shimmer in the high harmonics. This disappears when I play it back with a purely harmonic spectrum... there is still high-frequency energy there, but sounds like a power drill. So what I'd like to know is, is there a simple model that produces the shimmer? It doesn't have to be an exact physical model; I'm wondering if there is something simple that imitates it. Maybe granular synthesis? Dennis _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599 Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

Date	2012-01-16 11:56
From	Erik de Castro Lopo
Subject	Re: [Csnd] the "shimmer/sheen" of a violin
	peiman khosravi wrote: > It's interesting that inharmonicity is just as much involved in all musical > sounds as harmonicity (musical sounds but not so much musical structures). > Take the transient portion for instance. Students are still baffled when I > play them a vibraphone without the attack, is it a flute? Bowed cymbal? > French Horn!? > > I would suggest that reducing a complex musical sound to a temporally > invariant and purely harmonic model is a near-criminal activity :-) LA Synthesis anyone? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Arithmetic_synthesis Erik

Date	2012-01-16 12:06
From	Victor Lazzarini
Subject	Re: [Csnd] the "shimmer/sheen" of a violin
	It's a 19-C Helmholtzian model of sound, which somehow people still believe in. It's as if, when preparing for a space flight towards Mars, you just took into account Newton's physics and nothing else. On 16 Jan 2012, at 11:53, peiman khosravi wrote: > I would suggest that reducing a complex musical sound to a temporally invariant and purely harmonic model is a near-criminal activity :-) Dr Victor Lazzarini Senior Lecturer Dept. of Music NUI Maynooth Ireland tel.: +353 1 708 3545 Victor dot Lazzarini AT nuim dot ie Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599 Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

Date	2012-01-16 12:16
From	peiman khosravi
Subject	Re: [Csnd] the "shimmer/sheen" of a violin
	On 16 January 2012 12:06, Victor Lazzarini <Victor.Lazzarini@nuim.ie> wrote: It's a 19-C Helmholtzian model of sound, which somehow people still believe in. It's as if, when preparing for a space flight towards Mars, you just took into account Newton's physics and nothing else. Indeed On 16 Jan 2012, at 11:53, peiman khosravi wrote: > I would suggest that reducing a complex musical sound to a temporally invariant and purely harmonic model is a near-criminal activity :-) Dr Victor Lazzarini Senior Lecturer Dept. of Music NUI Maynooth Ireland tel.: +353 1 708 3545 Victor dot Lazzarini AT nuim dot ie Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599 Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

Date	2012-01-16 15:23
From	Joerg Spix
Subject	Re: [Csnd] the "shimmer/sheen" of a violin
	Am 16.01.12 12:53, schrieb peiman khosravi: > I would have thought this is related to the string's increasing > stiffness near the bridge, although I am just guessing. Note that the > closer you move towards the bridge the more inharmonic the sound becomes. I think it is the clamping by the saddle and some clamping by the bridge (which moves so not as much clamping as at the saddle) and the stiffness of the string which produces a small innharmonicity in the strings partials. > I would suggest that reducing a complex musical sound to a temporally > invariant and purely harmonic model is a near-criminal activity :-) I agree! > On 16 January 2012 03:17, Partev Barr Sarkissian > > wrote: > > Probably the result of one kind of string rubbing against another > kind of string, vibrations transferring into a resonating cavity, > then out through the sound-box. There is some truth in it, but this is not the main reason, I think. I would say together with vibrato or sound fluctuations the resonating body makes the sound more lively since the rather fixed body resonances interact with the moving string frequencies and change the spectrum constantly. So you need to look at what the player does with the instrument too. Jörg Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599 Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

Date	2012-01-16 17:23
From	Stefan Thomas
Subject	Re: [Csnd] the "shimmer/sheen" of a violin
	You should not forget, that a partial isn't static at all. It changes slightly it's pitch and I think, the higher the partial is, the more it changes it's frequency. Adding some random change of pitch could be a solution, I think. 2012/1/16 Joerg Spix <Joerg.Spix@spix.homeip.net> Am 16.01.12 12:53, schrieb peiman khosravi: I would have thought this is related to the string's increasing stiffness near the bridge, although I am just guessing. Note that the closer you move towards the bridge the more inharmonic the sound becomes. I think it is the clamping by the saddle and some clamping by the bridge (which moves so not as much clamping as at the saddle) and the stiffness of the string which produces a small innharmonicity in the strings partials. I would suggest that reducing a complex musical sound to a temporally invariant and purely harmonic model is a near-criminal activity :-) I agree! On 16 January 2012 03:17, Partev Barr Sarkissian <encino_man@netscape.com <mailto:encino_man@netscape.com>> wrote: Probably the result of one kind of string rubbing against another kind of string, vibrations transferring into a resonating cavity, then out through the sound-box. There is some truth in it, but this is not the main reason, I think. I would say together with vibrato or sound fluctuations the resonating body makes the sound more lively since the rather fixed body resonances interact with the moving string frequencies and change the spectrum constantly. So you need to look at what the player does with the instrument too. Jörg Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599 Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"

Date	2012-01-16 19:02
From	mark jamerson
Subject	Re: [Csnd] the "shimmer/sheen" of a violin
	There is also the factor that the inharmonicity of each string is different. If you are actually modeling all four strings of the violin in your model, you should theoretically choose upon which string each note is being played, and then adjust the inharmonicity of the upper partials based upon that string. As we all know, A5 sounds differently if played at the 12th position on the A string versus played at the 5th position on the E string. From: Stefan Thomas <kontrapunktstefan@googlemail.com> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [Csnd] the "shimmer/sheen" of a violin You should not forget, that a partial isn't static at all. It changes slightly it's pitch and I think, the higher the partial is, the more it changes it's frequency. Adding some random change of pitch could be a solution, I think. 2012/1/16 Joerg Spix <Joerg.Spix@spix.homeip.net> Am 16.01.12 12:53, schrieb peiman khosravi: I would have thought this is related to the string's increasing stiffness near the bridge, although I am just guessing. Note that the closer you move towards the bridge the more inharmonic the sound becomes. I think it is the clamping by the saddle and some clamping by the bridge (which moves so not as much clamping as at the saddle) and the stiffness of the string which produces a small innharmonicity in the strings partials. I would suggest that reducing a complex musical sound to a temporally invariant and purely harmonic model is a near-criminal activity :-) I agree! On 16 January 2012 03:17, Partev Barr Sarkissian <encino_man@netscape.com <mailto:encino_man@netscape.com>> wrote: Probably the result of one kind of string rubbing against another kind of string, vibrations transferring into a resonating cavity, then out through the sound-box. There is some truth in it, but this is not the main reason, I think. I would say together with vibrato or sound fluctuations the resonating body makes the sound more lively since the rather fixed body resonances interact with the moving string frequencies and change the spectrum constantly. So you need to look at what the player does with the instrument too. Jörg Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599 Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe csound"