Hi,

Regarding a new Csound online course, I would appreciate if the ones
teaching Csound on this mailing list could lend me a few minutes of
their time to answer this brief questionnaire. They are mostly Yes or No
questions, but any insight shared would be useful!


1. Could a Csound online course benefit the Csound project?
2. If Yes, should we include a preliminary chapter on digital audio?
3. What is your opinion on learning through Videos?
4. Do you think using an embedded interpreter in the browser would work
for teaching the fundamentals of the language?
        4.1. If No, which frontend should we ask them to download
(including the command-line frontend and plugins for text editors)?

5. What’s your teaching strategy regarding the fundamentals of the language:
        5.1. Do you use live-coding?
        5.2. Do you use visual slides?
        5.3. Do you present new topics by explaining them conceptually
first and then showing a code example OR do you present a new example
that shows the use case for something that then triggers the need for a
conceptual explanation?
        5.4. Are all the examples used in class related to audio OR do
you sometimes teach concepts treating Csound like a general-purpose
programming language (i.e., you don’t need audio to teach what
expressions are)?
        5.5. Do you use complete working examples to demonstrate
specific concepts OR do you use the minimal amount of code possible that
also encapsulates what you want to prove?
        5.6. Do you have a semester-long project in which you
incrementally build something starting from scratch?


Thanks in advance!

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Hi,

short answers  below

> 
> 1. Could a Csound online course benefit the Csound project?
Most certainly.
> 2. If Yes, should we include a preliminary chapter on digital audio?
I think so. Csound Floss manual is good example
http://write.flossmanuals.net/csound/a-digital-audio/
http://write.flossmanuals.net/csound/c-intensities/
etc
> 3. What is your opinion on learning through Videos?
Personally prefer and advocate always written text since it leaves the 
reading/learning tempor free and leavs room for thinking. I know that many 
younger people prefer video tutorials but this is not a demo of action, how to 
clean a fish for example.

> 4. Do you think using an embedded interpreter in the browser would work
> for teaching the fundamentals of the language?
Yes, would be very welcome - this could be the quickest and easiest start to 
get to the thing.
>         4.1. If No, which frontend should we ask them to download
> (including the command-line frontend and plugins for text editors)?
I don't know.
> 5. What’s your teaching strategy regarding the fundamentals of the language:
> 5.1. Do you use live-coding?
Yes
>         5.2. Do you use visual slides?
Sometimes, mostly just live computer screen mirroring if my CsoundQt session.
>         5.3. Do you present new topics by explaining them conceptually
> first and then showing a code example OR do you present a new example
> that shows the use case for something that then triggers the need for a
> conceptual explanation?
The better they are connected, the more fruitful it is. I think theory must 
come first but understanding comes through practice and examples.
>         5.4. Are all the examples used in class related to audio OR do
> you sometimes teach concepts treating Csound like a general-purpose
> programming language (i.e., you don’t need audio to teach what
> expressions are)?
Programming basics (conditionals, loops etc) is one important part.
>         5.5. Do you use complete working examples to demonstrate
> specific concepts OR do you use the minimal amount of code possible that
> also encapsulates what you want to prove?
Rather small and simple examples, not so much attention to artistic result.
>         5.6. Do you have a semester-long project in which you
> incrementally build something starting from scratch?
I teach a class of Csound basics, 1 semester, thus nothing like one big 
project for the students.

Thanks and looking forward to the summarisations one day!

tarmo


> 
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

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hi guillermo -

thanks for your questions.  i will answer below; just want to mention 
that there is not "the" way of teaching csound, but it depends very much 
on the situation (fortunately my situation is mostly having one-to-one 
lessons) — and also i try to learn myself all the time, so my way of 
teaching changes all the time.  but nevertheless see below; hope it can 
be useful for you.

best -
	joachim



On 13/10/17 21:13, Guillermo Senna wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Regarding a new Csound online course, I would appreciate if the ones
> teaching Csound on this mailing list could lend me a few minutes of
> their time to answer this brief questionnaire. They are mostly Yes or No
> questions, but any insight shared would be useful!
>
>
> 1. Could a Csound online course benefit the Csound project?
yes (or several different ones)

> 2. If Yes, should we include a preliminary chapter on digital audio?
not sure. and not sure it should be a preliminary chapter (it could also 
be an excursus)

> 3. What is your opinion on learning through Videos?
why not — i personally like reading more (it is in general faster and i 
can have my own tempo), but any way of learning is good, as long as it 
is learning

> 4. Do you think using an embedded interpreter in the browser would work
> for teaching the fundamentals of the language?
yes and i think it would definitely attract more people because they do 
not have to install anything

>         4.1. If No, which frontend should we ask them to download
> (including the command-line frontend and plugins for text editors)?
>
> 5. What’s your teaching strategy regarding the fundamentals of the language:
>         5.1. Do you use live-coding?
if you mean typing code: yes

>         5.2. Do you use visual slides?
if i have enough time to prepare: yes

>         5.3. Do you present new topics by explaining them conceptually
> first and then showing a code example OR do you present a new example
> that shows the use case for something that then triggers the need for a
> conceptual explanation?
both is good

>         5.4. Are all the examples used in class related to audio OR do
> you sometimes teach concepts treating Csound like a general-purpose
> programming language (i.e., you don’t need audio to teach what
> expressions are)?
i think it is good to have as much sensual (auditive) feedback as 
possible.  this make it more easy to hold the concentration and the appetite

>         5.5. Do you use complete working examples to demonstrate
> specific concepts OR do you use the minimal amount of code possible that
> also encapsulates what you want to prove?
sometimes i try to play a complex example to show how it sounds, but 
explain more at simple examples.  complexity can grow then in different 
directions

>         5.6. Do you have a semester-long project in which you
> incrementally build something starting from scratch?
me not, because of the teaching situation

>
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>

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Hi,
and thanks for doing this enquiry. I've been teaching csound over a 
number of years and I have tried out a number of things to get the 
students to learn better. I am far from the perfect course but the 
feedback from the students indicate that some things tend to work well:
- short video lessons combined with lectures and assignments
- moderate progression
- examples and assignments that the students can find musically useful
Also, the last few times I have had the course I have chosen one (often 
the simplest) way of doing things instead of explaining the N number of 
ways that a concept can be implemented. Even if this approach has some 
negative aspects to it, it tends to be less confusing, I think.
> Hi,
>
> Regarding a new Csound online course, I would appreciate if the ones
> teaching Csound on this mailing list could lend me a few minutes of
> their time to answer this brief questionnaire. They are mostly Yes or No
> questions, but any insight shared would be useful!
>
>
> 1. Could a Csound online course benefit the Csound project?
Yes, I think a number of good learning resources is definitely useful.
> 2. If Yes, should we include a preliminary chapter on digital audio?
Yes, I would consider it a part of the introduction if the students are 
not already familiar with it.
> 3. What is your opinion on learning through Videos?
I've made about 70 videos to go with my course (in Norwegian) and it has 
been a resource that the students have been very positive about. They 
seem to use it a lot to repeat techniques from classes and when they do 
assignments.
> 4. Do you think using an embedded interpreter in the browser would work
> for teaching the fundamentals of the language?
I don't have so much experience with this but it sounds like a good idea.
>          4.1. If No, which frontend should we ask them to download
> (including the command-line frontend and plugins for text editors)?
I agree with Rory on this: WinXound works very well on win and osx and 
rarely crashes.
>
> 5. What’s your teaching strategy regarding the fundamentals of the language:
>          5.1. Do you use live-coding?
No. I almost always code in class, but not like a live-coding type of 
performance.
>          5.2. Do you use visual slides?
Yes, both in class and when I make videos - especially when explaining 
concepts and showing figures.
>          5.3. Do you present new topics by explaining them conceptually
> first and then showing a code example OR do you present a new example
> that shows the use case for something that then triggers the need for a
> conceptual explanation?
Yes, usually concepts first and then csound implementation after.
>          5.4. Are all the examples used in class related to audio OR do
> you sometimes teach concepts treating Csound like a general-purpose
> programming language (i.e., you don’t need audio to teach what
> expressions are)?
I have just a few examples in the very beginning of my course that do 
not involve audio.
>          5.5. Do you use complete working examples to demonstrate
> specific concepts OR do you use the minimal amount of code possible that
> also encapsulates what you want to prove?
I usually prefer shorter examples that include just a few concepts.
>          5.6. Do you have a semester-long project in which you
> incrementally build something starting from scratch?
No, I have several shorter projects. Some are even group based. Even if 
those aren't the most effective in terms of learning to code, they can 
be very motivating.

Best,
Andreas
>
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>          https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here


-- 
Andreas Bergsland

Associate professor - førsteamanuensis
Study Programme Leader - studieprogramleder
Music Technology Programme - Musikkteknologiseksjonen
Department of Music - Institutt for musikk
Olavskvartalet
NTNU (Norwegian University of Science and Technology)
7491 Trondheim
NORWAY

Visiting address/besøksadresse: Fjordgt.1 (3.etg.)
e-mail: andreas.bergsland@ntnu.no
Web: http://folk.ntnu.no/andbe
Office phone: 7359 0096
Mobile:       4566 3316


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PS: Andreas, can you show me/us one of your videos? Are they in Norwegian? Unfortunately I don’t know any other languages besides English and Spanish, although Joachim taught us that in Germany you have to say “cream cheese” when someone sneezes. Anyway, I think it’s OK if they’re not in English, but just to see what their general structure looks like.

2017-10-16 3:36 GMT-03:00 Andreas Bergsland <andreas.bergsland@ntnu.no>:

Hi,
and thanks for doing this enquiry. I've been teaching csound over a number of years and I have tried out a number of things to get the students to learn better. I am far from the perfect course but the feedback from the students indicate that some things tend to work well:
- short video lessons combined with lectures and assignments
- moderate progression
- examples and assignments that the students can find musically useful
Also, the last few times I have had the course I have chosen one (often the simplest) way of doing things instead of explaining the N number of ways that a concept can be implemented. Even if this approach has some negative aspects to it, it tends to be less confusing, I think.

Hi,

Regarding a new Csound online course, I would appreciate if the ones
teaching Csound on this mailing list could lend me a few minutes of
their time to answer this brief questionnaire. They are mostly Yes or No
questions, but any insight shared would be useful!


1. Could a Csound online course benefit the Csound project?

Yes, I think a number of good learning resources is definitely useful.

2. If Yes, should we include a preliminary chapter on digital audio?

Yes, I would consider it a part of the introduction if the students are not already familiar with it.

3. What is your opinion on learning through Videos?

I've made about 70 videos to go with my course (in Norwegian) and it has been a resource that the students have been very positive about. They seem to use it a lot to repeat techniques from classes and when they do assignments.

4. Do you think using an embedded interpreter in the browser would work
for teaching the fundamentals of the language?

I don't have so much experience with this but it sounds like a good idea.

         4.1. If No, which frontend should we ask them to download
(including the command-line frontend and plugins for text editors)?

I agree with Rory on this: WinXound works very well on win and osx and rarely crashes.

5. What’s your teaching strategy regarding the fundamentals of the language:
         5.1. Do you use live-coding?

No. I almost always code in class, but not like a live-coding type of performance.

         5.2. Do you use visual slides?

Yes, both in class and when I make videos - especially when explaining concepts and showing figures.

         5.3. Do you present new topics by explaining them conceptually
first and then showing a code example OR do you present a new example
that shows the use case for something that then triggers the need for a
conceptual explanation?

Yes, usually concepts first and then csound implementation after.

         5.4. Are all the examples used in class related to audio OR do
you sometimes teach concepts treating Csound like a general-purpose
programming language (i.e., you don’t need audio to teach what
expressions are)?

I have just a few examples in the very beginning of my course that do not involve audio.

         5.5. Do you use complete working examples to demonstrate
specific concepts OR do you use the minimal amount of code possible that
also encapsulates what you want to prove?

I usually prefer shorter examples that include just a few concepts.

         5.6. Do you have a semester-long project in which you
incrementally build something starting from scratch?

No, I have several shorter projects. Some are even group based. Even if those aren't the most effective in terms of learning to code, they can be very motivating.

Best,
Andreas

Thanks in advance!

Csound mailing list
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https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

--
Andreas Bergsland

Associate professor - førsteamanuensis
Study Programme Leader - studieprogramleder
Music Technology Programme - Musikkteknologiseksjonen
Department of Music - Institutt for musikk
Olavskvartalet
NTNU (Norwegian University of Science and Technology)
7491 Trondheim
NORWAY

Visiting address/besøksadresse: Fjordgt.1 (3.etg.)
e-mail: andreas.bergsland@ntnu.no
Web: http://folk.ntnu.no/andbe
Office phone: 7359 0096
Mobile:       4566 3316

Csound mailing list
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https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
       https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

-- 
Andreas Bergsland

Associate professor - førsteamanuensis
Study Programme Leader - studieprogramleder
Music Technology Programme - Musikkteknologiseksjonen
Department of Music - Institutt for musikk
Olavskvartalet
NTNU (Norwegian University of Science and Technology)
7491 Trondheim
NORWAY

Visiting address/besøksadresse: Fjordgt.1 (3.etg.)
e-mail: andreas.bergsland@ntnu.no
Web: http://folk.ntnu.no/andbe
Office phone: 7359 0096
Mobile:       4566 3316

On 20/10/17 02:12, Guillermo Senna wrote:
> although Joachim taught us that in Germany you have to say “cream
> cheese” when someone sneezes

well, i get the impression that my german lessons were not really 
successful.  i will try next year again ... =)

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"Cream cheese".  In English?  Rather than "Gesundheit", I suppose.
How did this come about?

On 10/20/2017 05:36 AM, joachim heintz wrote:
> On 20/10/17 02:12, Guillermo Senna wrote:
>> although Joachim taught us that in Germany you have to say “cream
>> cheese” when someone sneezes
>
> well, i get the impression that my german lessons were not really
> successful.  i will try next year again ... =)
>
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>

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I was just teasing him because in the workshop he sneezed, I said
Gesundheit and a student said it sounded very similar to "queso untable"
said fast, which I think would be cream cheese in English.


On 20/10/17 18:53, PMA wrote:
> "Cream cheese".  In English?  Rather than "Gesundheit", I suppose.
> How did this come about?
>
> On 10/20/2017 05:36 AM, joachim heintz wrote:
>> On 20/10/17 02:12, Guillermo Senna wrote:
>>> although Joachim taught us that in Germany you have to say “cream
>>> cheese” when someone sneezes
>>
>> well, i get the impression that my german lessons were not really
>> successful.  i will try next year again ... =)
>>
>> Csound mailing list
>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> Send bugs reports to
>>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>
>
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

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el 2017-10-20 a las 09:20 Rory Walsh escribió:

> Those videos look really useful Andreas. Perhaps someday you might get a
> chance to overdub them in English ;)

or perhaps simply add english subtitles?



---

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Well, sure sounds better than "Gawd bless you"!

On 10/20/2017 05:57 PM, Guillermo Senna wrote:
> I was just teasing him because in the workshop he sneezed, I said
> Gesundheit and a student said it sounded very similar to "queso untable"
> said fast, which I think would be cream cheese in English.
>
>
> On 20/10/17 18:53, PMA wrote:
>> "Cream cheese".  In English?  Rather than "Gesundheit", I suppose.
>> How did this come about?
>>
>> On 10/20/2017 05:36 AM, joachim heintz wrote:
>>> On 20/10/17 02:12, Guillermo Senna wrote:
>>>> although Joachim taught us that in Germany you have to say “cream
>>>> cheese” when someone sneezes
>>>
>>> well, i get the impression that my german lessons were not really
>>> successful.  i will try next year again ... =)
>>>
>>> Csound mailing list
>>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>>> Send bugs reports to
>>>          https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>>
>>
>> Csound mailing list
>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> Send bugs reports to
>>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>          https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>

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Just wanted to chime in that I really enjoyed these videos.  Although
I don't speak Norwegian, it was easy for me to see how the material
was being taught and presented and I found it very inspiring.

Thanks!
steven

On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:07 PM, luis jure  wrote:
> el 2017-10-20 a las 09:20 Rory Walsh escribió:
>
>> Those videos look really useful Andreas. Perhaps someday you might get a
>> chance to overdub them in English ;)
>
> or perhaps simply add english subtitles?
>
>
>
> ---
>
> Csound mailing list
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> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

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Thanks, Steven, Rory and Luis for your comments! I will definitely 
consider doing either subtitles or making English versions if I will be 
revisiting this.
Best,
Andreas
> Just wanted to chime in that I really enjoyed these videos.  Although
> I don't speak Norwegian, it was easy for me to see how the material
> was being taught and presented and I found it very inspiring.
>
> Thanks!
> steven
>
> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:07 PM, luis jure  wrote:
>> el 2017-10-20 a las 09:20 Rory Walsh escribió:
>>
>>> Those videos look really useful Andreas. Perhaps someday you might get a
>>> chance to overdub them in English ;)
>> or perhaps simply add english subtitles?
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Csound mailing list
>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> Send bugs reports to
>>          https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>          https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here


-- 
Andreas Bergsland

Associate professor - førsteamanuensis
Study Programme Leader - studieprogramleder
Music Technology Programme - Musikkteknologiseksjonen
Department of Music - Institutt for musikk
Olavskvartalet
NTNU (Norwegian University of Science and Technology)
7491 Trondheim
NORWAY

Visiting address/besøksadresse: Fjordgt.1 (3.etg.)
e-mail: andreas.bergsland@ntnu.no
Web: http://folk.ntnu.no/andbe
Office phone: 7359 0096
Mobile:       4566 3316


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