It seems a great solution! Thank you

Il 10/01/2025 00:41 CET Eduardo Moguillansky <eduardo.moguillansky@gmail.com> ha scritto:

 

 

Seeing that this got mentioned due to some naming confusion, let me share 'libcsound', python bindings forked from ctcsound (https://github.com/csound-plugins/libcsound)

 

Differences with ctcsound

* Supports any version of csound. At import time the correct API is loaded.  This makes it possible to decouple the csound version installed from the version of libcsound.

* Supports both csound 7 and csound 6 with the same source. libcsound is aware of the changes made to the API from csound 6 to csound 7 and provides methods to write code compatible with both versions.

* can be installed via pip. This makes it possible to integrate into a normal python workflow, allowing to declare libcsound as a dependency of other projects.

* nice documentation! https://libcsound.readthedocs.io/en/latest/index.html

* makes some bureaucracy of the API not needed and does some type checking to prevent obvious errors.

* libcsound implements an optional process callback to make accessing the API when using a performance thread more efficient

* libcsound is tested against csound 6 and csound 7 via github actions on all major desktop platforms

 

cheers

Eduardo

 

 

Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Thanks!



*Warning*

This email originated from outside of Maynooth University's Mail System. Do not reply, click links or open attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe.

Seeing that this got mentioned due to some naming confusion, let me share 'libcsound', python bindings forked from ctcsound (https://github.com/csound-plugins/libcsound)

Differences with ctcsound

* Supports any version of csound. At import time the correct API is loaded.  This makes it possible to decouple the csound version installed from the version of libcsound.

* Supports both csound 7 and csound 6 with the same source. libcsound is aware of the changes made to the API from csound 6 to csound 7 and provides methods to write code compatible with both versions.

* can be installed via pip. This makes it possible to integrate into a normal python workflow, allowing to declare libcsound as a dependency of other projects.

* nice documentation! https://libcsound.readthedocs.io/en/latest/index.html

* makes some bureaucracy of the API not needed and does some type checking to prevent obvious errors.

* libcsound implements an optional process callback to make accessing the API when using a performance thread more efficient

* libcsound is tested against csound 6 and csound 7 via github actions on all major desktop platforms

cheers

Eduardo

Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

i am also ot happy about this lack of discussion and collaboration.  and 
i don't think that putting things into pip solves everything.  i just 
tried to install on a mac, and it complaints about a numpy version 
required which conflicts with a numpy version used for mediapipe.  (of 
course it can be solved but the ctcsound version i have on this computer 
runs without issues.)

another difference is that françois changed the function names for the 
CS7 version to snake case to comply with python style guide.  this is 
not the case in edurado's wrapper, so we will have two different 
languages in using the csound api from python.


On 10/01/2025 11:36, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
> I think it may be a good idea to discuss with François whether this is a 
> better way forward.
> 
> We don't need to distribute the bindings, only host the upstream sources.
> 
> 
> Prof. Victor Lazzarini
> Maynooth University
> Ireland
> 
>> On 10 Jan 2025, at 09:33, Eduardo Moguillansky 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> 
>> One incompatible difference is how these bindings are distributed. 
>> libcsound is conceived to be external to csound in order to be 
>> installed as a normal python package. It supports different python 
>> versions, virtual environments, etc. and  can be updated independently 
>> and receive bug fixes independent of csound's own release cycle.For 
>> this to work it needs to be independent of the csound version 
>> installed in the host system and thus needs to support all csound 
>> versions >= 6.18. It also makes an effort to enable code to target 
>> both csound 6 and csound 7 without changes. In this sense it deviates 
>> from ctcsound, which explicitly follows the csound API verbatim.
>>
>> I would be happy to incorporate any contributions or share ideas back 
>> to ctcsound, but I also think that these two bindings can happily coexist.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 9:54 AM Victor Lazzarini <000010b17ddd988e- 
>> dmarc-request@listserv.heanet.ie > request@listserv.heanet.ie>> wrote:
>>
>>     Should these things not be incorporated into ctcsound so we avoid
>>     the confusion of forks?
>>
>>     In my view, if the ideas are good, then it would be best to bring
>>     them together instead of keeping separate forks.
>>
>>     Prof. Victor Lazzarini
>>     Maynooth University
>>     Ireland
>>
>>>     On 9 Jan 2025, at 23:43, Eduardo Moguillansky
>>>     >>     > wrote:
>>>
>>>     
>>>
>>>
>>>       *Warning*
>>>
>>>     This email originated from outside of Maynooth University's Mail
>>>     System. Do not reply, click links or open attachments unless you
>>>     recognise the sender and know the content is safe.
>>>
>>>     Seeing that this got mentioned due to some naming confusion, let
>>>     me share 'libcsound', python bindings forked from ctcsound
>>>     (https://github.com/csound-plugins/libcsound >>     csound-plugins/libcsound>)
>>>
>>>     Differences with ctcsound
>>>     * Supports any version of csound. At import time the correct API
>>>     is loaded.  This makes it possible to decouple the csound version
>>>     installed from the version of libcsound.
>>>     * Supports both csound 7 and csound 6 with the same source.
>>>     libcsound is aware of the changes made to the API from csound 6
>>>     to csound 7 and provides methods to write code compatible with
>>>     both versions.
>>>     * can be installed via pip. This makes it possible to integrate
>>>     into a normal python workflow, allowing to declare libcsound as a
>>>     dependency of other projects.
>>>     * nice documentation! https://libcsound.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
>>>     index.html 
>>>     * makes some bureaucracy of the API not needed and does some type
>>>     checking to prevent obvious errors.
>>>     * libcsound implements an optional process callback to make
>>>     accessing the API when using a performance thread more efficient
>>>     * libcsound is tested against csound 6 and csound 7 via github
>>>     actions on all major desktop platforms
>>>
>>>     cheers
>>>     Eduardo
>>>
>>>
>>>     Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>>>      https://listserv.heanet.ie/
>>>     cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND >>     A0=CSOUND> Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/
>>>     issues  Discussions of
>>>     bugs and features can be posted here
>>     Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>>      https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-
>>     bin/wa?A0=CSOUND 
>>     Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>      Discussions of bugs and
>>     features can be posted here 
>>
>> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie 
>>  https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/ 
>> wa?A0=CSOUND  Send 
>> bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues > github.com/csound/csound/issues> Discussions of bugs and features can 
>> be posted here
> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie 
>  https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/ 
> wa?A0=CSOUND  Send bugs 
> reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues  csound/csound/issues> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
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Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

I've been involved in Csound dev for a while now, and even longer as a user. There was a time when forks were flying left, right, and centre. It wasn't conducive to a great community experience.

Since 5.0, things have stabilised significantly, I think last time we had a situation was when Istvan left in a huff because his code had been reformatted by a script, and attempted his own C++ fork which failed miserably.

I am not against forking code per se, but I think in some cases this is more beneficial as a short-term measure to test the viability of ideas, eventually leading to a contribution to the codebase. 

Joachim has pointed out a key issue in this: if there are parallel versions it can be confusing for users. The fact that this conversation started from a conflation of two sets of bindings is a good indicator.

If we can work together in merging the best ideas of the two projects, I think it would be ideal. Generally, that's how we are trying to proceed with the development of the system.

On a general unrelated note, I think the new processes have helped us a lot, we have had some great contributions from people who have stepped in with their expertise in specific areas.

Python is a very important element in the Csound ecosystem. It would be great to put it in a firm ground so that Csound can be leveraged in areas like scientific research (e.g. ML, tensorflow, etc).

Victor

> On 10 Jan 2025, at 13:26, joachim heintz  wrote:
> 
> i am also ot happy about this lack of discussion and collaboration.  and i don't think that putting things into pip solves everything.  i just tried to install on a mac, and it complaints about a numpy version required which conflicts with a numpy version used for mediapipe.  (of course it can be solved but the ctcsound version i have on this computer runs without issues.)
> 
> another difference is that françois changed the function names for the CS7 version to snake case to comply with python style guide.  this is not the case in edurado's wrapper, so we will have two different languages in using the csound api from python.
> 
> 
>> On 10/01/2025 11:36, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
>> I think it may be a good idea to discuss with François whether this is a better way forward.
>> We don't need to distribute the bindings, only host the upstream sources.
>> Prof. Victor Lazzarini
>> Maynooth University
>> Ireland
>>>> On 10 Jan 2025, at 09:33, Eduardo Moguillansky  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One incompatible difference is how these bindings are distributed. libcsound is conceived to be external to csound in order to be installed as a normal python package. It supports different python versions, virtual environments, etc. and  can be updated independently and receive bug fixes independent of csound's own release cycle.For this to work it needs to be independent of the csound version installed in the host system and thus needs to support all csound versions >= 6.18. It also makes an effort to enable code to target both csound 6 and csound 7 without changes. In this sense it deviates from ctcsound, which explicitly follows the csound API verbatim.
>>> 
>>> I would be happy to incorporate any contributions or share ideas back to ctcsound, but I also think that these two bindings can happily coexist.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 9:54 AM Victor Lazzarini <000010b17ddd988e- dmarc-request@listserv.heanet.ie > wrote:
>>> 
>>>    Should these things not be incorporated into ctcsound so we avoid
>>>    the confusion of forks?
>>> 
>>>    In my view, if the ideas are good, then it would be best to bring
>>>    them together instead of keeping separate forks.
>>> 
>>>    Prof. Victor Lazzarini
>>>    Maynooth University
>>>    Ireland
>>> 
>>>>    On 9 Jan 2025, at 23:43, Eduardo Moguillansky
>>>>    >>>    > wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>    
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>      *Warning*
>>>> 
>>>>    This email originated from outside of Maynooth University's Mail
>>>>    System. Do not reply, click links or open attachments unless you
>>>>    recognise the sender and know the content is safe.
>>>> 
>>>>    Seeing that this got mentioned due to some naming confusion, let
>>>>    me share 'libcsound', python bindings forked from ctcsound
>>>>    (https://github.com/csound-plugins/libcsound >>>    csound-plugins/libcsound>)
>>>> 
>>>>    Differences with ctcsound
>>>>    * Supports any version of csound. At import time the correct API
>>>>    is loaded.  This makes it possible to decouple the csound version
>>>>    installed from the version of libcsound.
>>>>    * Supports both csound 7 and csound 6 with the same source.
>>>>    libcsound is aware of the changes made to the API from csound 6
>>>>    to csound 7 and provides methods to write code compatible with
>>>>    both versions.
>>>>    * can be installed via pip. This makes it possible to integrate
>>>>    into a normal python workflow, allowing to declare libcsound as a
>>>>    dependency of other projects.
>>>>    * nice documentation! https://libcsound.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
>>>>    index.html 
>>>>    * makes some bureaucracy of the API not needed and does some type
>>>>    checking to prevent obvious errors.
>>>>    * libcsound implements an optional process callback to make
>>>>    accessing the API when using a performance thread more efficient
>>>>    * libcsound is tested against csound 6 and csound 7 via github
>>>>    actions on all major desktop platforms
>>>> 
>>>>    cheers
>>>>    Eduardo
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>    Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>>>>     https://listserv.heanet.ie/
>>>>    cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND >>>    A0=CSOUND> Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/
>>>>    issues  Discussions of
>>>>    bugs and features can be posted here
>>>    Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>>>     https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-
>>>    bin/wa?A0=CSOUND 
>>>    Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>>     Discussions of bugs and
>>>    features can be posted here
>>> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie  https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/ wa?A0=CSOUND  Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues  Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie  https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/ wa?A0=CSOUND  Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues  Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> 
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>       https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here