i need microtonal glissandi on live input (accordion) for a composition.
simple usage of pvscale sounds like small steps:

instr test
   ;aSound = poscil:a(.2,400) //this is most obvious
   aSound = vco2(.2,400) //less obvious but still not good
   fSound = pvsanal(aSound,2056,512,2056,1)
   kGliss = cent(linseg:k(0,5,100))
   fGliss = pvscale(fSound,kGliss)
   aGliss = pvsynth(fGliss)
   outall(aGliss)
endin
schedule("test",0,5)

how can this be improved?  pvsmooth?
or should granular synthesis be used for this purpose?

i remember a discussion here on the list years ago, but i don't remember 
the results.
perhaps someone did some experimenting in this field and can share some 
tips.

cheers -
	joachim

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Unrelated but why 2056? It's not a power of two and 512 does not divide it evenly. Should you not use 2048?


Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Maynooth University
Ireland

> On 12 Oct 2024, at 19:02, joachim heintz  wrote:
> 
> i need microtonal glissandi on live input (accordion) for a composition.
> simple usage of pvscale sounds like small steps:
> 
> instr test
>  ;aSound = poscil:a(.2,400) //this is most obvious
>  aSound = vco2(.2,400) //less obvious but still not good
>  fSound = pvsanal(aSound,2056,512,2056,1)
>  kGliss = cent(linseg:k(0,5,100))
>  fGliss = pvscale(fSound,kGliss)
>  aGliss = pvsynth(fGliss)
>  outall(aGliss)
> endin
> schedule("test",0,5)
> 
> how can this be improved?  pvsmooth?
> or should granular synthesis be used for this purpose?
> 
> i remember a discussion here on the list years ago, but i don't remember the results.
> perhaps someone did some experimenting in this field and can share some tips.
> 
> cheers -
>    joachim
> 
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>       https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

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yes good idea --- i always forget about this old technique although it 
is very useful for many use cases ...
thanks!
	j


On 12/10/2024 21:02, Tarmo Johannes wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> Depending on how much control need,  perhaps for the effect, an old good 
> changing delay time like vdelay would do?
> 
> Just a guess...
> 
> Tarmo
> 
> 
> L, 12. oktoober 2024 21:02 joachim heintz  > kirjutas:
> 
>     i need microtonal glissandi on live input (accordion) for a composition.
>     simple usage of pvscale sounds like small steps:
> 
>     instr test
>         ;aSound = poscil:a(.2,400) //this is most obvious
>         aSound = vco2(.2,400) //less obvious but still not good
>         fSound = pvsanal(aSound,2056,512,2056,1)
>         kGliss = cent(linseg:k(0,5,100))
>         fGliss = pvscale(fSound,kGliss)
>         aGliss = pvsynth(fGliss)
>         outall(aGliss)
>     endin
>     schedule("test",0,5)
> 
>     how can this be improved?  pvsmooth?
>     or should granular synthesis be used for this purpose?
> 
>     i remember a discussion here on the list years ago, but i don't
>     remember
>     the results.
>     perhaps someone did some experimenting in this field and can share some
>     tips.
> 
>     cheers -
>              joachim
> 
>     Csound mailing list
>     Csound@listserv.heanet.ie 
>     https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>     
>     Send bugs reports to
>     https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>     
>     Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> 
> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie 
>  
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND 
>  Send bugs reports to 
> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues 
>  Discussions of bugs and 
> features can be posted here

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yes right --- this was my mistake.
it does not affect the sound output; i guess pvsanal always round to the 
next power of two.

On 12/10/2024 22:15, vlz wrote:
> Unrelated but why 2056? It's not a power of two and 512 does not divide it evenly. Should you not use 2048?
> 
> 
> Prof. Victor Lazzarini
> Maynooth University
> Ireland
> 
>> On 12 Oct 2024, at 19:02, joachim heintz  wrote:
>>
>> i need microtonal glissandi on live input (accordion) for a composition.
>> simple usage of pvscale sounds like small steps:
>>
>> instr test
>>   ;aSound = poscil:a(.2,400) //this is most obvious
>>   aSound = vco2(.2,400) //less obvious but still not good
>>   fSound = pvsanal(aSound,2056,512,2056,1)
>>   kGliss = cent(linseg:k(0,5,100))
>>   fGliss = pvscale(fSound,kGliss)
>>   aGliss = pvsynth(fGliss)
>>   outall(aGliss)
>> endin
>> schedule("test",0,5)
>>
>> how can this be improved?  pvsmooth?
>> or should granular synthesis be used for this purpose?
>>
>> i remember a discussion here on the list years ago, but i don't remember the results.
>> perhaps someone did some experimenting in this field and can share some tips.
>>
>> cheers -
>>     joachim
>>
>> Csound mailing list
>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> Send bugs reports to
>>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> 
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>          https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
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It just uses a non-pow-of-two FFT, so it's not so efficient.

You can try using additive synthesis (eg pvadd or partials/tradsyn), maybe with port on the control signal.

Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Maynooth University
Ireland

> On 13 Oct 2024, at 07:04, joachim heintz  wrote:
>
> *Warning*
>
> This email originated from outside of Maynooth University's Mail System. Do not reply, click links or open attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe.
>
> yes right --- this was my mistake.
> it does not affect the sound output; i guess pvsanal always round to the
> next power of two.
>
>> On 12/10/2024 22:15, vlz wrote:
>> Unrelated but why 2056? It's not a power of two and 512 does not divide it evenly. Should you not use 2048?
>>
>>
>> Prof. Victor Lazzarini
>> Maynooth University
>> Ireland
>>
>>>> On 12 Oct 2024, at 19:02, joachim heintz  wrote:
>>>
>>> i need microtonal glissandi on live input (accordion) for a composition.
>>> simple usage of pvscale sounds like small steps:
>>>
>>> instr test
>>>  ;aSound = poscil:a(.2,400) //this is most obvious
>>>  aSound = vco2(.2,400) //less obvious but still not good
>>>  fSound = pvsanal(aSound,2056,512,2056,1)
>>>  kGliss = cent(linseg:k(0,5,100))
>>>  fGliss = pvscale(fSound,kGliss)
>>>  aGliss = pvsynth(fGliss)
>>>  outall(aGliss)
>>> endin
>>> schedule("test",0,5)
>>>
>>> how can this be improved?  pvsmooth?
>>> or should granular synthesis be used for this purpose?
>>>
>>> i remember a discussion here on the list years ago, but i don't remember the results.
>>> perhaps someone did some experimenting in this field and can share some tips.
>>>
>>> cheers -
>>>    joachim
>>>
>>> Csound mailing list
>>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>>> Send bugs reports to
>>>       https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>
>> Csound mailing list
>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> Send bugs reports to
>>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>
> Csound mailing list
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thanks to tarmo's suggestion i remembered that i already worked some 
time ago on a UDO for live transposition (pitch-shifting) via delay. 
there was a good comment by jeanette at this time, too, so i looked 
closer now and came to a new version.

the main improvement is the use a hamming window for the cross-fade of 
the two delay lines.  i am surprised how well this works; but most 
probably this is actually the description of what the hamming window is 
about ...

the side effect of this window is that there is not need to move the 
delay time (as i thought in my first version) to avoid AM artifacts when 
using delay times < 1/20 second.

as far as i see, there is no problem to use a delay time (= latency) of 
1/100 (0.01) seconds.  if i did not overlook anything, this is really a 
dream for live applications ...

i know here on this list are many who have much more knowledge than me 
in this field.  so i would appreciate falsification of my big 
self-advertisement (only the "donate now!" button is missing ... =).  i 
would even claim that it sounds much better than the "transpose" object 
in max (which because of the AM issue does noc allow latencies lower 
than 0.125 seconds!).

the UDO code and examples are here: 
https://github.com/csudo/csudo/blob/master/misc/DelTp.csd

cheers -
	joachim


On 13/10/2024 08:03, joachim heintz wrote:
> yes good idea --- i always forget about this old technique although it 
> is very useful for many use cases ...
> thanks!
>      j
> 
> 
> On 12/10/2024 21:02, Tarmo Johannes wrote:
>> Hi!
>>
>> Depending on how much control need,  perhaps for the effect, an old 
>> good changing delay time like vdelay would do?
>>
>> Just a guess...
>>
>> Tarmo
>>
>>
>> L, 12. oktoober 2024 21:02 joachim heintz > > kirjutas:
>>
>>     i need microtonal glissandi on live input (accordion) for a 
>> composition.
>>     simple usage of pvscale sounds like small steps:
>>
>>     instr test
>>         ;aSound = poscil:a(.2,400) //this is most obvious
>>         aSound = vco2(.2,400) //less obvious but still not good
>>         fSound = pvsanal(aSound,2056,512,2056,1)
>>         kGliss = cent(linseg:k(0,5,100))
>>         fGliss = pvscale(fSound,kGliss)
>>         aGliss = pvsynth(fGliss)
>>         outall(aGliss)
>>     endin
>>     schedule("test",0,5)
>>
>>     how can this be improved?  pvsmooth?
>>     or should granular synthesis be used for this purpose?
>>
>>     i remember a discussion here on the list years ago, but i don't
>>     remember
>>     the results.
>>     perhaps someone did some experimenting in this field and can share 
>> some
>>     tips.
>>
>>     cheers -
>>              joachim
>>
>>     Csound mailing list
>>     Csound@listserv.heanet.ie 
>>     https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>>     
>>     Send bugs reports to
>>     https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>     
>>     Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>
>> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie 
>>  
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND 
>>  Send bugs reports to 
>> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues 
>>  Discussions of bugs and 
>> features can be posted here
> 
> Csound mailing list
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thanks for diving into it and pointing to the faust implementation!
and also for the interesting example / comparision.
your plugins collection is really "krass" (german).  i am already using 
csound7 develop: can i use risset for it, too?  or do you need to do 
changes?


On 03/11/2024 22:57, Eduardo Moguillansky wrote:
> This approach sounds surprisingly good for stationary sounds and small 
> transposition intervals. It has the known drawbacks of many delay based 
> pitchshifters, particularly short percussive sounds can break into 
> multiple attacks because of windowing, but compared to faust's transpose 
> it has better quality delay. A nice detail about the faust 
> implementation is the possibility to customize the crossfade duration 
> which can help in certain cases. There is a csound native implementation 
> here: 
> https://github.com/csound-plugins/csound-plugins/blob/master/src/else/src/else.c#L5802 , docs: https://csound-plugins.github.io/csound-plugins/opcodes/transpose.html . It is surprisingly efficient, probably due to the delay being just linearly interpolated
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 7:47 PM joachim heintz  > wrote:
> 
>     thanks to tarmo's suggestion i remembered that i already worked some
>     time ago on a UDO for live transposition (pitch-shifting) via delay.
>     there was a good comment by jeanette at this time, too, so i looked
>     closer now and came to a new version.
> 
>     the main improvement is the use a hamming window for the cross-fade of
>     the two delay lines.  i am surprised how well this works; but most
>     probably this is actually the description of what the hamming window is
>     about ...
> 
>     the side effect of this window is that there is not need to move the
>     delay time (as i thought in my first version) to avoid AM artifacts
>     when
>     using delay times < 1/20 second.
> 
>     as far as i see, there is no problem to use a delay time (= latency) of
>     1/100 (0.01) seconds.  if i did not overlook anything, this is really a
>     dream for live applications ...
> 
>     i know here on this list are many who have much more knowledge than me
>     in this field.  so i would appreciate falsification of my big
>     self-advertisement (only the "donate now!" button is missing ... =).  i
>     would even claim that it sounds much better than the "transpose" object
>     in max (which because of the AM issue does noc allow latencies lower
>     than 0.125 seconds!).
> 
>     the UDO code and examples are here:
>     https://github.com/csudo/csudo/blob/master/misc/DelTp.csd
>     
> 
>     cheers -
>              joachim
> 
> 
>     On 13/10/2024 08:03, joachim heintz wrote:
>      > yes good idea --- i always forget about this old technique
>     although it
>      > is very useful for many use cases ...
>      > thanks!
>      >      j
>      >
>      >
>      > On 12/10/2024 21:02, Tarmo Johannes wrote:
>      >> Hi!
>      >>
>      >> Depending on how much control need,  perhaps for the effect, an old
>      >> good changing delay time like vdelay would do?
>      >>
>      >> Just a guess...
>      >>
>      >> Tarmo
>      >>
>      >>
>      >> L, 12. oktoober 2024 21:02 joachim heintz      
>      >> >> kirjutas:
>      >>
>      >>     i need microtonal glissandi on live input (accordion) for a
>      >> composition.
>      >>     simple usage of pvscale sounds like small steps:
>      >>
>      >>     instr test
>      >>         ;aSound = poscil:a(.2,400) //this is most obvious
>      >>         aSound = vco2(.2,400) //less obvious but still not good
>      >>         fSound = pvsanal(aSound,2056,512,2056,1)
>      >>         kGliss = cent(linseg:k(0,5,100))
>      >>         fGliss = pvscale(fSound,kGliss)
>      >>         aGliss = pvsynth(fGliss)
>      >>         outall(aGliss)
>      >>     endin
>      >>     schedule("test",0,5)
>      >>
>      >>     how can this be improved?  pvsmooth?
>      >>     or should granular synthesis be used for this purpose?
>      >>
>      >>     i remember a discussion here on the list years ago, but i don't
>      >>     remember
>      >>     the results.
>      >>     perhaps someone did some experimenting in this field and can
>     share
>      >> some
>      >>     tips.
>      >>
>      >>     cheers -
>      >>              joachim
>      >>
>      >>     Csound mailing list
>      >> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie 
>     >
>      >> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>     
>      >>          >
>      >>     Send bugs reports to
>      >> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>     
>      >>          >
>      >>     Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>      >>
>      >> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>     
>      >>      >
>      >> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>     
>      >>      > Send bugs reports to
>      >> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>     
>      >>      > Discussions of bugs and
>      >> features can be posted here
>      >
>      > Csound mailing list
>      > Csound@listserv.heanet.ie 
>      > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
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>      > Send bugs reports to
>      > https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
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>      > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
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