Hi Jonathan, I find Wiki's are great for certain things, and other things I find better suited to other formats. This one in particular seems to me to be more Manual material as it's something you need to know out of the box these days when using Csound on (any) Linux. It's not something I imagine would change much unless dmix changes, and there's already an information page in the manual about realtime audio output on Linux. Otherwise, I'm mostly with you regarding wiki's and have enjoyed seeing the Csound wiki take shape. =) steven On 1/18/07, Jonathan Murphy wrote: > > Hi Steven, > > Thanks for your patience and forbearance. > > > BTW: Should I write something about this in the manual? > > I've been thinking about this kind of thing a lot lately. When I first > started to use Csound, sometime late 2005, there was little online > information regarding installation of Csound5 on Linux. There was a > great article by Dave Phillips, but the focus was primarily on new > features, rather than on how to get things working. If nothing else, I'm > stubborn, so I googled for a week or so and managed to compile from > CVS, and promptly wrote a brief howto on the Csound5 forums page. For > a while, it was quite popular, and people wrote in regarding > problems/complications. I was watching the post, and so was Istvan, so > by and large readers got informed (Istvan) and simple (self) > explanations. The major problem was that it was geared towards > then current versions of software such as alsa, jack, python, > fluidsynth, and also particular distributions (at the time I was using > Ubuntu, Istvan was using Planet CCRMA). Eventually it disappeared > (which is good). The thing is, although I no longer use Ubuntu, nor > (for that matter) any of the mainstream Linux distributions, I still > use csound5 CVS, and install it in much the same manner described, and > the bare bones of the installation method still apply. The core of > that experience could have been retained, and would still prove useful > to others. > > It seems to me that the Canonical Csound Reference Manual should deal > primarily with the aspects of Csound that change relatively rarely. It > should be as Canonical as possible. Installation and configuration > instructions for the various platforms will change rapidly, and are > only ever going to be a major PITA for developers in general and > Andres in particular, if they are to be constantly updated in the > manual. Every couple of days someone is going to write to the user > list saying "I followed the instructions to the letter but blah isn't > working." The rate of change of the manual is not such that it can > keep pace with the change in development of every strand of every > platform that Csound can be compiled upon, and it should not be > expected to be able to do so. > > On the other hand, the wiki can, and is in fact specifically designed > to be able to do this sort of thing. If someone finds that information > is outdated, they can simply change it, or add a note to the effect > that "I tried this but foobar.deb is no longer available. I had to do > this to get things working." If a developer or experienced Csounder > was the original author of the page in question, this would improve > things hundredfold. They could subscribe to the page (all you need to > do is click on a button), then when any changes to the page are made, > they will be notified via email, and they can check the veracity of > the information, add notes as required and so on, all this without the > requirement of any party having CVS write access. The wiki has the > potential to harness all of the energy of all of the people who use > Csound, not just the developers, who (I imagine) are already > overextended by their jobs, musical output, relationships and so > forth. If it reaches a certain critical mass, then it will become > almost self-maintaining. As an example of this possibility, although > not a Csound developer, nor associated with the OLPC project, I have > just added a link to the Csound page on the OLPC Wiki on the > CsoundWiki. > > http://tobiah.org/csoundwiki/ExternalLinks#head-b232301da10556a7340c794705628f4139a59aec > > Anyone with an interest in these projects could have done so, provided > that they have internet access and a browser. On the other hand, if > someone had wanted to add similar information to the manual (from the > above it should be apparent that I don't think it would necessarily be > a good idea), they would have either had to have had CVS write access, > or written persuasively to one of the lists. The wiki is a fluid > informatic zone, with enormous potential. The manual is by comparison > static, but this is precisely the task of a manual, except when new > circumstances arise, or it is generally recognised that an > improvement be made. > > When Mike posted to the user list saying that he was going to write up > his experiences and suggestions regarding compiling Csound on Ubuntu, > and add them to the manual, my feelings were mixed, as follows: > > 1. Fantastic. I admire, respect, and seek to emulate the dedication > of (all) developers, (but) particularly when they take the time to > provide documentation for newcomers. > > 2. That's exactly what I did a year and a half ago, and I found that > it needed to be updated every couple of weeks, as the distribution > packages changed. I tried to do this, but found that other tasks > were more pressing, and that I was unable to do so. > > 3. I really hope that he puts it up on the wiki instead. > > The wiki really needs the support of Csound developers. The wiki > format is particularly good for some kinds of information, such as > that which you have provided regarding dmix. I know that you will do > as you think best, and that is one of the reasons that you have my > utmost respect. The foregoing is merely my opinion regarding desirable > methods for propagating differing types of information. > > Sincerely, > Jonathan. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Take Surveys. Earn Cash. 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