I've been looking at the  Csound based apps on the iOS App Store
   and their developers'
websites and I've not found any links to source code or object files.
Everything appears to me to be standard, commercial, closed source software.
Could anyone point me to an example of how one of these apps or any other
are properly honoring the CSound/libsndfile LGPL license? Are they doing it
in-app somewhere?

Thanks!



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I guess you need to ask each developer/vendor. The developers of Csound have no formal links to
any third-party iOS developers.

========================
Dr Victor Lazzarini
Senior Lecturer
NUI Maynooth, Ireland
victor dot lazzarini at nuim dot ie




On 6 Aug 2014, at 22:47, discohead  wrote:

> I've been looking at the  Csound based apps on the iOS App Store
>    and their developers'
> websites and I've not found any links to source code or object files.
> Everything appears to me to be standard, commercial, closed source software.
> Could anyone point me to an example of how one of these apps or any other
> are properly honoring the CSound/libsndfile LGPL license? Are they doing it
> in-app somewhere?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/CSound-iOS-LGPL-Examples-tp5736661.html
> Sent from the Csound - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
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I guess they are, but I will not be able to tell for sure for every case. Anyone is free to pick up Csound and build their own SDK for whatever
platform they want. However, since there is no dynamic linking on OSX, according to the LGPL any software using Csound is a derivative and
has the LGPL conditions imposed on it (at least that is my read of the licence). You will need to take this on with the third-party developers,
as I explained, we have no formal links with anyone publishing at the Apple Store.

With Android the situation is probably different, as Csound is a dynamic library. But, as with iOS, we do not have any formal links to
third-party developers there either.

========================
Dr Victor Lazzarini
Senior Lecturer
NUI Maynooth, Ireland
victor dot lazzarini at nuim dot ie




On 6 Aug 2014, at 23:27, discohead  wrote:

> Victor,
> 
> To be clear though, all of those apps are supposed to be making available either their full source code or all of the object files necessary to re-link their application, if in fact they are using the Csound iOS SDK, is that correct?
> 
> Thanks,
> Jared
> 
> 
> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Victor Lazzarini [via Csound] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I guess you need to ask each developer/vendor. The developers of Csound have no formal links to 
> any third-party iOS developers. 
> 
> ======================== 
> Dr Victor Lazzarini 
> Senior Lecturer 
> NUI Maynooth, Ireland 
> victor dot lazzarini at nuim dot ie 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 6 Aug 2014, at 22:47, discohead <[hidden email]> wrote: 
> 
> > I've been looking at the  Csound based apps on the iOS App Store 
> >    and their developers' 
> > websites and I've not found any links to source code or object files. 
> > Everything appears to me to be standard, commercial, closed source software. 
> > Could anyone point me to an example of how one of these apps or any other 
> > are properly honoring the CSound/libsndfile LGPL license? Are they doing it 
> > in-app somewhere? 
> > 
> > Thanks! 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > View this message in context: http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/CSound-iOS-LGPL-Examples-tp5736661.html
> > Sent from the Csound - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com. 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
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> > [hidden email] 
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
> 
> 
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I am going to vent here a moment.  Jump to the end if you want the
shorter version of what I think you need to do if you're going to use
Csound in your applications.

My primary concern regarding the LGPL is that anything anyone changes
related to Csound or Csound for iOS classes themselves (i.e.
CsoundObj) should be published.  It's already happened where I've
spent an hour or two looking at a problem someone reported, only to
hear from someone else that they had already done something similar
and tested it (and ultimately had done it better than what I first
tried).  That pissed me off to no end that I wasted my time. (I'm not
kidding when I say pissed, as in it made me VERY, VERY angry.)

I would like to say people like Aure who *are* making contributions
back to Csound for iOS are an incredible example of how to be a good
citizen in an open source community, and we're all the better off
because of it. It's people like him who see better ways to do things
and communicate and contribute changes back that helps to move this
all forward.

People can and should use Csound for their works. I think it's a great
solution for many music projects' needs. On the other hand, they
should also be mindful that using Csound means you're reusing the
works of generations of composers and programmers. Those very same
people helped to make Csound what it is today by their contributions
back to the community and to the code itself.

As for application code (code outside of Csound for iOS's SDK classes
and Csound itself), I personally don't mind if people want to publish
that part of their code or not. I personally think open source is in
the best interest of everyone, including the authors of projects, but
if someone wants to keep that to themselves, that doesn't really
bother me so much.  (I think it's their loss in the grand scheme of
things and the long historical view, but I can live with it if they
can.)

[The summary and shorter version below]

Even though the LGPL is more specific than this, my own take is this:
I want people to use Csound for iOS because it's a great way to build
music applications. It is also is one part of a larger ecosystem,
where one can use Csound to build musical works and musical
applications across many platforms. I want to see this all continue to
grow. If people want to open source their own applications based on
Csound, awesome, if not, oh well.  If however you make any significant
changes to things that were given to you (say, fix a bug or modify
CsoundObj's design, modify Csound in some significant way), I think
you need to contribute that back somehow.  It's really that line I
think between what was given to you and what you created yourself, and
what parts you change, that I think really needs to be respected.

That said, that is only my own personal view. Other Csound developers
may have their own thoughts on this.  Also to note, Csound for iOS
depends on libsndfile; you would also have to contact Erik about
licensing issues related to that. I'm personally uninterested in
getting into any kind of legal issues of any sort; if I find out
someone is not respecting the license, all that will happen from my
end is that I will think a great deal less of them as people.



On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 7:11 PM, discohead  wrote:
> Thanks Victor I have reached out to some of the developers. Though my
> concern, ultimately, is not with them. I am considering developing an iOS
> app myself using the Csound SDK and was curious as to what satisfying the
> terms of the license looks like.
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 3:39 PM, Victor Lazzarini [via Csound] <[hidden
> email]> wrote:
>>
>> I guess they are, but I will not be able to tell for sure for every case.
>> Anyone is free to pick up Csound and build their own SDK for whatever
>> platform they want. However, since there is no dynamic linking on OSX,
>> according to the LGPL any software using Csound is a derivative and
>> has the LGPL conditions imposed on it (at least that is my read of the
>> licence). You will need to take this on with the third-party developers,
>> as I explained, we have no formal links with anyone publishing at the
>> Apple Store.
>>
>> With Android the situation is probably different, as Csound is a dynamic
>> library. But, as with iOS, we do not have any formal links to
>> third-party developers there either.
>>
>> ========================
>> Dr Victor Lazzarini
>> Senior Lecturer
>> NUI Maynooth, Ireland
>> victor dot lazzarini at nuim dot ie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6 Aug 2014, at 23:27, discohead <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > Victor,
>> >
>> > To be clear though, all of those apps are supposed to be making
>> > available either their full source code or all of the object files necessary
>> > to re-link their application, if in fact they are using the Csound iOS SDK,
>> > is that correct?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Jared
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Victor Lazzarini [via Csound] <[hidden
>> > email]> wrote:
>>
>> > I guess you need to ask each developer/vendor. The developers of Csound
>> > have no formal links to
>> > any third-party iOS developers.
>> >
>> > ========================
>> > Dr Victor Lazzarini
>> > Senior Lecturer
>> > NUI Maynooth, Ireland
>> > victor dot lazzarini at nuim dot ie
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 6 Aug 2014, at 22:47, discohead <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > > I've been looking at the  Csound based apps on the iOS App Store
>> > >    and their developers'
>> > > websites and I've not found any links to source code or object files.
>> > > Everything appears to me to be standard, commercial, closed source
>> > > software.
>> > > Could anyone point me to an example of how one of these apps or any
>> > > other
>> > > are properly honoring the CSound/libsndfile LGPL license? Are they
>> > > doing it
>> > > in-app somewhere?
>> > >
>> > > Thanks!
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > View this message in context:
>> > > http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/CSound-iOS-LGPL-Examples-tp5736661.html
>> > > Sent from the Csound - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> > >
>> > >
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>> > > _______________________________________________
>>
>> > > Csound-devel mailing list
>> > > [hidden email]
>> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> >
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I agree almost completely with Steven here. The only ways I differ are that I think I am more concerned about the actual laws and contracts, as a codification of the integrity we want to see, and that I think that Apple has contributed to this mess by trying to control their system and app store in a more proprietary way. That's their right, but that's why I avoid Apple.

Regards,
Mike