We could default to 48 KHz for real-time audio,  and 44.1 KHz for soundfile rendering, no?

Regards,
Mike

-----Original Message-----
>From: David Akbari 
>Sent: Dec 15, 2006 10:52 AM
>To: Developer discussions 
>Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] sensekey
>
>I would place my vote for 44.1 kHz if, for no other reason, that the  
>Red Book CD-Audio standard defines this as the nominal sampling rate  
>for playback.
>
>One could argue that using 48 kHz would coincide with the DVD medium,  
>but as it is, Csound is configured to work also using 16 bits of  
>dynamic range, with 8 bit or 24 bit as optional flags. The latter of  
>course coinciding with the DVD/48 kHz camp.
>
>In general it seems that for the moment using Red Book CD audio as a  
>preferred delivery media is both cheap and practical for the general  
>user of Csound. Obviously if the delivery media is some kind of hard  
>disk or bandwidth using the internet, higher sampling rates and bit  
>depths for dynamic range could be preferred, but if you consider the  
>Red Book CD audio paradigm, you'd have to use some kind of dithering  
>and sample rate conversion which could adversely affect your  
>synthesized sound.
>
>This is of course a discussion on the *defaults*, any user with minimal  
>Csound experience should be able to grasp the idea of changing the  
>sampling rate with the sr opcode or using the -c/-8 or -3 arguments...
>
>Which brings me to a question: clearly libsndfile supports rendering 32  
>bit float audio files but there isn't really a commandline flag that  
>makes rendering a file of this type clear. I see only the
>
>"-f      float sound samples"
>
>in the output of csound --help. How might one render a 32 bit float  
>.wav file for example? What flags would be needed?
>
>
>
>-David
>
>On Dec 15, 2006, at 9:40 AM, Steven Yi wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I found that it's not just USB, but also at least the built-in Intel
>> AC97 sound chip in my laptop (and I would many other laptops).  More
>> importantly than the latency though was the coloration of the sound,
>> which I found to be a bigger issue.  Perhaps it was just a non-optimal
>> upsampling algorithm used somewhere in the signal chain, but it was
>> enough to bother me to switch to 48kHz.
>>
>> The problem with 48kHz though is that it doesn't play well with 44.1
>> sampled wave files or files related to that.  It's also a reason why I
>> don't use fluidsynth so much because soundfonts tend to be 44.1 and
>> they get pictched up when used in a 48k sr project.
>>
>> For Mac's, it looks like 48k is fine, as-is 96khz:
>>
>> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Conceptual/ 
>> HWTech_Audio/Articles/Audio_implementation.html
>>
>> So... doesn't seem to be a very clear winner in this to me.
>>
>> steven
>>
>>
>> On 12/15/06, Andres Cabrera  wrote:
>>> Hi Dr. B,
>>>
>>> 48k will only be faster if 44.1k is not directly supported by the  
>>> audio
>>> interface. This is the case with many USB soundcards, which have to  
>>> do a
>>> sample rate conversion in the driver (software). But this is  
>>> particular
>>> to Usb interfaces, all other cards will not benefit from this.
>>> This makes me think that defaults should work, but not be optimized  
>>> for
>>> a particular setup, they would probably produce high latency and be
>>> inefficient, but I think what's important is that the work without
>>> stuttering in all systems (if that's possible... maybe it isn't?)
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andr??s
>>>
>>> Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
>>>> If 48k is faster, that's news to me and I would be happy to choose
>>>> the faster rate as a default.
>>>>
>>>> Are there issues with 48k on the mac?
>>>>
>>>> -dB
>>>> On Dec 14, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Steven Yi wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>> I tend to use 48000 for realtime and 44100 for wav.  For me, I've
>>>>> found that because 48000 is the native resolution on the audio  
>>>>> devices
>>>>> I use (the laptops builtin sound card and a USB sound card I use),
>>>>> I've gotten better performance with that due to no translation.   
>>>>> Also,
>>>>> more importantly, I've found that the sound of the audio I was  
>>>>> working
>>>>> with when rendering 44.1 on a 48k device was colored so that it  
>>>>> wasn't
>>>>> representative of what I heard when rendering 44.1 to CD and playing
>>>>> on a stereo.  Rendering at 48k works though for me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just to add a little more fuel to the debate. :P
>>>>>
>>>>> steven
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/14/06, Victor Lazzarini  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I also prefer 44100.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Victor
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anthony Kozar  writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't mean to be difficult, but I would personally
>>>>>>>> rather have sr = 44100 and ksmps = 16 than this.  (And I
>>>>>>>> like the current defaults the most).
>>>>>>>> The issue here for me is that the Macintosh world has a
>>>>>>>> long history of built-in sound hardware with drivers
>>>>>>>> that support ONLY 44100, 22050, and 11025 sampling
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> rates.  I don't know if this is true of machines within
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the last few years, but it was from the early '90s
>>>>>>>> through probably '01 or so.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wasn't aware of that. Sorry. Myself, I only use linux,
>>>>>>> and never use the default sr/ksmps, rarely the default -b
>>>>>>> -B. I don't want to be difficult either. My concern over
>>>>>>> this only arises because I wrote a couple of example
>>>>>>> instruments for rt audio in/out, and when I started to
>>>>>>> document them, realised that the defaults wouldn't work.
>>>>>>> It seems necessary that there be defaults, but it also
>>>>>>> seems necessary that the defaults work. For my personal
>>>>>>> use of csound, none of this matters in the slightest, if
>>>>>>> the defaults became problematic for me I could just change
>>>>>>> them before compiling. It's often said that csound is
>>>>>>> difficult to learn, but easy to use once you've grasped
>>>>>>> the basics, and I think that that's valid. I'd just like
>>>>>>> to make it easier for people to get over that first big
>>>>>>> hurdle, so that they can get on with making great music.
>>>>>>> I'm not a developer, so all of this is really out of my
>>>>>>> hands anyway. The request to find a better compromise in
>>>>>>> terms of the default settings is only that, a request,
>>>>>>> regardless of how grumpy and uptight I may have sounded at
>>>>>>> times. Sure that you'll all appreciate it if I shut up at
>>>>>>> this point, so that's that. If there's a change it'll be
>>>>>>> posted, otherwise I'll present some information as best I
>>>>>>> can regardless.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jonathan.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> --------------- Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the
>>>>>>> Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and
>>>>>>> you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT &
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>> page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
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>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Csound-devel mailing list
>>>>>>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- 
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>>>>>> ----
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>>>>
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>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
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It seems that most people prefer 44100. In which case, there is
another option, which would be to change ksmps to 4 (highest power of
two which is a divisor of 44100), kr to 11025. In most cases this
would be an improvement. I'm attaching the test instruments that I
wrote (they're kind of dumb instruments, the idea is just to chew up
some cpu cycles). These run fine under linux with default -b & -B. If
they could be tested on the other platforms that would be great, but I
can't see that there should be any problem. The first is just ins with
some fx, the second is similar but requires rtmidi input. 

Anyone foresee any problems with sr = 44100, kr = 11025, ksmps = 4?

J.

Michael Gogins  writes:

> We could default to 48 KHz for real-time audio,  and 44.1 KHz for soundfile rendering, no?
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: David Akbari 
>>Sent: Dec 15, 2006 10:52 AM
>>To: Developer discussions 
>>Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] sensekey
>>
>>I would place my vote for 44.1 kHz if, for no other reason, that the  
>>Red Book CD-Audio standard defines this as the nominal sampling rate  
>>for playback.
>>
>>One could argue that using 48 kHz would coincide with the DVD medium,  
>>but as it is, Csound is configured to work also using 16 bits of  
>>dynamic range, with 8 bit or 24 bit as optional flags. The latter of  
>>course coinciding with the DVD/48 kHz camp.
>>
>>In general it seems that for the moment using Red Book CD audio as a  
>>preferred delivery media is both cheap and practical for the general  
>>user of Csound. Obviously if the delivery media is some kind of hard  
>>disk or bandwidth using the internet, higher sampling rates and bit  
>>depths for dynamic range could be preferred, but if you consider the  
>>Red Book CD audio paradigm, you'd have to use some kind of dithering  
>>and sample rate conversion which could adversely affect your  
>>synthesized sound.
>>
>>This is of course a discussion on the *defaults*, any user with minimal  
>>Csound experience should be able to grasp the idea of changing the  
>>sampling rate with the sr opcode or using the -c/-8 or -3 arguments...
>>
>>Which brings me to a question: clearly libsndfile supports rendering 32  
>>bit float audio files but there isn't really a commandline flag that  
>>makes rendering a file of this type clear. I see only the
>>
>>"-f      float sound samples"
>>
>>in the output of csound --help. How might one render a 32 bit float  
>>.wav file for example? What flags would be needed?
>>
>>
>>
>>-David
>>
>>On Dec 15, 2006, at 9:40 AM, Steven Yi wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I found that it's not just USB, but also at least the built-in Intel
>>> AC97 sound chip in my laptop (and I would many other laptops).  More
>>> importantly than the latency though was the coloration of the sound,
>>> which I found to be a bigger issue.  Perhaps it was just a non-optimal
>>> upsampling algorithm used somewhere in the signal chain, but it was
>>> enough to bother me to switch to 48kHz.
>>>
>>> The problem with 48kHz though is that it doesn't play well with 44.1
>>> sampled wave files or files related to that.  It's also a reason why I
>>> don't use fluidsynth so much because soundfonts tend to be 44.1 and
>>> they get pictched up when used in a 48k sr project.
>>>
>>> For Mac's, it looks like 48k is fine, as-is 96khz:
>>>
>>> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Conceptual/ 
>>> HWTech_Audio/Articles/Audio_implementation.html
>>>
>>> So... doesn't seem to be a very clear winner in this to me.
>>>
>>> steven
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/15/06, Andres Cabrera  wrote:
>>>> Hi Dr. B,
>>>>
>>>> 48k will only be faster if 44.1k is not directly supported by the  
>>>> audio
>>>> interface. This is the case with many USB soundcards, which have to  
>>>> do a
>>>> sample rate conversion in the driver (software). But this is  
>>>> particular
>>>> to Usb interfaces, all other cards will not benefit from this.
>>>> This makes me think that defaults should work, but not be optimized  
>>>> for
>>>> a particular setup, they would probably produce high latency and be
>>>> inefficient, but I think what's important is that the work without
>>>> stuttering in all systems (if that's possible... maybe it isn't?)
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Andr??s
>>>>
>>>> Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
>>>>> If 48k is faster, that's news to me and I would be happy to choose
>>>>> the faster rate as a default.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are there issues with 48k on the mac?
>>>>>
>>>>> -dB
>>>>> On Dec 14, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Steven Yi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I tend to use 48000 for realtime and 44100 for wav.  For me, I've
>>>>>> found that because 48000 is the native resolution on the audio  
>>>>>> devices
>>>>>> I use (the laptops builtin sound card and a USB sound card I use),
>>>>>> I've gotten better performance with that due to no translation.   
>>>>>> Also,
>>>>>> more importantly, I've found that the sound of the audio I was  
>>>>>> working
>>>>>> with when rendering 44.1 on a 48k device was colored so that it  
>>>>>> wasn't
>>>>>> representative of what I heard when rendering 44.1 to CD and playing
>>>>>> on a stereo.  Rendering at 48k works though for me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just to add a little more fuel to the debate. :P
>>>>>>
>>>>>> steven
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/14/06, Victor Lazzarini  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also prefer 44100.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Victor
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anthony Kozar  writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to be difficult, but I would personally
>>>>>>>>> rather have sr = 44100 and ksmps = 16 than this.  (And I
>>>>>>>>> like the current defaults the most).
>>>>>>>>> The issue here for me is that the Macintosh world has a
>>>>>>>>> long history of built-in sound hardware with drivers
>>>>>>>>> that support ONLY 44100, 22050, and 11025 sampling
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> rates.  I don't know if this is true of machines within
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the last few years, but it was from the early '90s
>>>>>>>>> through probably '01 or so.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wasn't aware of that. Sorry. Myself, I only use linux,
>>>>>>>> and never use the default sr/ksmps, rarely the default -b
>>>>>>>> -B. I don't want to be difficult either. My concern over
>>>>>>>> this only arises because I wrote a couple of example
>>>>>>>> instruments for rt audio in/out, and when I started to
>>>>>>>> document them, realised that the defaults wouldn't work.
>>>>>>>> It seems necessary that there be defaults, but it also
>>>>>>>> seems necessary that the defaults work. For my personal
>>>>>>>> use of csound, none of this matters in the slightest, if
>>>>>>>> the defaults became problematic for me I could just change
>>>>>>>> them before compiling. It's often said that csound is
>>>>>>>> difficult to learn, but easy to use once you've grasped
>>>>>>>> the basics, and I think that that's valid. I'd just like
>>>>>>>> to make it easier for people to get over that first big
>>>>>>>> hurdle, so that they can get on with making great music.
>>>>>>>> I'm not a developer, so all of this is really out of my
>>>>>>>> hands anyway. The request to find a better compromise in
>>>>>>>> terms of the default settings is only that, a request,
>>>>>>>> regardless of how grumpy and uptight I may have sounded at
>>>>>>>> times. Sure that you'll all appreciate it if I shut up at
>>>>>>>> this point, so that's that. If there's a change it'll be
>>>>>>>> posted, otherwise I'll present some information as best I
>>>>>>>> can regardless.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jonathan.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> --------------- Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the
>>>>>>>> Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and
>>>>>>>> you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT &
>>>>>>>> business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.techsay.com/default.php?
>>>>>>> page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Csound-devel mailing list
>>>>>>>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
>>>>>>> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to
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>>>>>>> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn
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>>>>>>> Csound-devel mailing list
>>>>>>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
>>>>>> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to
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>>>>>> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn  
>>>>>> cash
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Csound-devel mailing list
>>>>>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>> ----
>>>>> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
>>>>> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to  
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>>>>> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn  
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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Might help if I really attached the files...

J.

That kr is way too high for the default.

-dB

On Dec 17, 2006, at 12:47 AM, Jonathan Murphy wrote:

>
> It seems that most people prefer 44100. In which case, there is
> another option, which would be to change ksmps to 4 (highest power of
> two which is a divisor of 44100), kr to 11025. In most cases this
> would be an improvement. I'm attaching the test instruments that I
> wrote (they're kind of dumb instruments, the idea is just to chew up
> some cpu cycles). These run fine under linux with default -b & -B. If
> they could be tested on the other platforms that would be great, but I
> can't see that there should be any problem. The first is just ins with
> some fx, the second is similar but requires rtmidi input.
>
> Anyone foresee any problems with sr = 44100, kr = 11025, ksmps = 4?
>
> J.
>
> Michael Gogins  writes:
>
>> We could default to 48 KHz for real-time audio,  and 44.1 KHz for  
>> soundfile rendering, no?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: David Akbari 
>>> Sent: Dec 15, 2006 10:52 AM
>>> To: Developer discussions 
>>> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] sensekey
>>>
>>> I would place my vote for 44.1 kHz if, for no other reason, that the
>>> Red Book CD-Audio standard defines this as the nominal sampling rate
>>> for playback.
>>>
>>> One could argue that using 48 kHz would coincide with the DVD  
>>> medium,
>>> but as it is, Csound is configured to work also using 16 bits of
>>> dynamic range, with 8 bit or 24 bit as optional flags. The latter of
>>> course coinciding with the DVD/48 kHz camp.
>>>
>>> In general it seems that for the moment using Red Book CD audio as a
>>> preferred delivery media is both cheap and practical for the general
>>> user of Csound. Obviously if the delivery media is some kind of hard
>>> disk or bandwidth using the internet, higher sampling rates and bit
>>> depths for dynamic range could be preferred, but if you consider the
>>> Red Book CD audio paradigm, you'd have to use some kind of dithering
>>> and sample rate conversion which could adversely affect your
>>> synthesized sound.
>>>
>>> This is of course a discussion on the *defaults*, any user with  
>>> minimal
>>> Csound experience should be able to grasp the idea of changing the
>>> sampling rate with the sr opcode or using the -c/-8 or -3  
>>> arguments...
>>>
>>> Which brings me to a question: clearly libsndfile supports  
>>> rendering 32
>>> bit float audio files but there isn't really a commandline flag that
>>> makes rendering a file of this type clear. I see only the
>>>
>>> "-f      float sound samples"
>>>
>>> in the output of csound --help. How might one render a 32 bit float
>>> .wav file for example? What flags would be needed?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -David
>>>
>>> On Dec 15, 2006, at 9:40 AM, Steven Yi wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> I found that it's not just USB, but also at least the built-in  
>>>> Intel
>>>> AC97 sound chip in my laptop (and I would many other laptops).   
>>>> More
>>>> importantly than the latency though was the coloration of the  
>>>> sound,
>>>> which I found to be a bigger issue.  Perhaps it was just a non- 
>>>> optimal
>>>> upsampling algorithm used somewhere in the signal chain, but it was
>>>> enough to bother me to switch to 48kHz.
>>>>
>>>> The problem with 48kHz though is that it doesn't play well with  
>>>> 44.1
>>>> sampled wave files or files related to that.  It's also a reason  
>>>> why I
>>>> don't use fluidsynth so much because soundfonts tend to be 44.1 and
>>>> they get pictched up when used in a 48k sr project.
>>>>
>>>> For Mac's, it looks like 48k is fine, as-is 96khz:
>>>>
>>>> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Conceptual/
>>>> HWTech_Audio/Articles/Audio_implementation.html
>>>>
>>>> So... doesn't seem to be a very clear winner in this to me.
>>>>
>>>> steven
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/15/06, Andres Cabrera  wrote:
>>>>> Hi Dr. B,
>>>>>
>>>>> 48k will only be faster if 44.1k is not directly supported by the
>>>>> audio
>>>>> interface. This is the case with many USB soundcards, which  
>>>>> have to
>>>>> do a
>>>>> sample rate conversion in the driver (software). But this is
>>>>> particular
>>>>> to Usb interfaces, all other cards will not benefit from this.
>>>>> This makes me think that defaults should work, but not be  
>>>>> optimized
>>>>> for
>>>>> a particular setup, they would probably produce high latency  
>>>>> and be
>>>>> inefficient, but I think what's important is that the work without
>>>>> stuttering in all systems (if that's possible... maybe it isn't?)
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Andr??s
>>>>>
>>>>> Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
>>>>>> If 48k is faster, that's news to me and I would be happy to  
>>>>>> choose
>>>>>> the faster rate as a default.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are there issues with 48k on the mac?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -dB
>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Steven Yi wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I tend to use 48000 for realtime and 44100 for wav.  For me,  
>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>>> found that because 48000 is the native resolution on the audio
>>>>>>> devices
>>>>>>> I use (the laptops builtin sound card and a USB sound card I  
>>>>>>> use),
>>>>>>> I've gotten better performance with that due to no translation.
>>>>>>> Also,
>>>>>>> more importantly, I've found that the sound of the audio I was
>>>>>>> working
>>>>>>> with when rendering 44.1 on a 48k device was colored so that it
>>>>>>> wasn't
>>>>>>> representative of what I heard when rendering 44.1 to CD and  
>>>>>>> playing
>>>>>>> on a stereo.  Rendering at 48k works though for me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just to add a little more fuel to the debate. :P
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> steven
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 12/14/06, Victor Lazzarini  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also prefer 44100.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Victor
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anthony Kozar  writes:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to be difficult, but I would personally
>>>>>>>>>> rather have sr = 44100 and ksmps = 16 than this.  (And I
>>>>>>>>>> like the current defaults the most).
>>>>>>>>>> The issue here for me is that the Macintosh world has a
>>>>>>>>>> long history of built-in sound hardware with drivers
>>>>>>>>>> that support ONLY 44100, 22050, and 11025 sampling
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> rates.  I don't know if this is true of machines within
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> the last few years, but it was from the early '90s
>>>>>>>>>> through probably '01 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wasn't aware of that. Sorry. Myself, I only use linux,
>>>>>>>>> and never use the default sr/ksmps, rarely the default -b
>>>>>>>>> -B. I don't want to be difficult either. My concern over
>>>>>>>>> this only arises because I wrote a couple of example
>>>>>>>>> instruments for rt audio in/out, and when I started to
>>>>>>>>> document them, realised that the defaults wouldn't work.
>>>>>>>>> It seems necessary that there be defaults, but it also
>>>>>>>>> seems necessary that the defaults work. For my personal
>>>>>>>>> use of csound, none of this matters in the slightest, if
>>>>>>>>> the defaults became problematic for me I could just change
>>>>>>>>> them before compiling. It's often said that csound is
>>>>>>>>> difficult to learn, but easy to use once you've grasped
>>>>>>>>> the basics, and I think that that's valid. I'd just like
>>>>>>>>> to make it easier for people to get over that first big
>>>>>>>>> hurdle, so that they can get on with making great music.
>>>>>>>>> I'm not a developer, so all of this is really out of my
>>>>>>>>> hands anyway. The request to find a better compromise in
>>>>>>>>> terms of the default settings is only that, a request,
>>>>>>>>> regardless of how grumpy and uptight I may have sounded at
>>>>>>>>> times. Sure that you'll all appreciate it if I shut up at
>>>>>>>>> this point, so that's that. If there's a change it'll be
>>>>>>>>> posted, otherwise I'll present some information as best I
>>>>>>>>> can regardless.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jonathan.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> --------------- Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the
>>>>>>>>> Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and
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I agree.  Also, wasn't it discussed on this list that it is NOT 
necessary for kr to be an integer?  I don't see any reason to change the 
defaults; if we did it might be more reasonable to set the defaults to 
sr=44100 and kr=16 or 32.

Please correct me if I am wrong about kr.

Thanks,
Julian Peterson


Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
> That kr is way too high for the default.
>
> -dB
>
> On Dec 17, 2006, at 12:47 AM, Jonathan Murphy wrote:
>
>   
>> It seems that most people prefer 44100. In which case, there is
>> another option, which would be to change ksmps to 4 (highest power of
>> two which is a divisor of 44100), kr to 11025. In most cases this
>> would be an improvement. I'm attaching the test instruments that I
>> wrote (they're kind of dumb instruments, the idea is just to chew up
>> some cpu cycles). These run fine under linux with default -b & -B. If
>> they could be tested on the other platforms that would be great, but I
>> can't see that there should be any problem. The first is just ins with
>> some fx, the second is similar but requires rtmidi input.
>>
>> Anyone foresee any problems with sr = 44100, kr = 11025, ksmps = 4?
>>
>> J.
>>
>> Michael Gogins  writes:
>>
>>     
>>> We could default to 48 KHz for real-time audio,  and 44.1 KHz for  
>>> soundfile rendering, no?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>       
>>>> From: David Akbari 
>>>> Sent: Dec 15, 2006 10:52 AM
>>>> To: Developer discussions 
>>>> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] sensekey
>>>>
>>>> I would place my vote for 44.1 kHz if, for no other reason, that the
>>>> Red Book CD-Audio standard defines this as the nominal sampling rate
>>>> for playback.
>>>>
>>>> One could argue that using 48 kHz would coincide with the DVD  
>>>> medium,
>>>> but as it is, Csound is configured to work also using 16 bits of
>>>> dynamic range, with 8 bit or 24 bit as optional flags. The latter of
>>>> course coinciding with the DVD/48 kHz camp.
>>>>
>>>> In general it seems that for the moment using Red Book CD audio as a
>>>> preferred delivery media is both cheap and practical for the general
>>>> user of Csound. Obviously if the delivery media is some kind of hard
>>>> disk or bandwidth using the internet, higher sampling rates and bit
>>>> depths for dynamic range could be preferred, but if you consider the
>>>> Red Book CD audio paradigm, you'd have to use some kind of dithering
>>>> and sample rate conversion which could adversely affect your
>>>> synthesized sound.
>>>>
>>>> This is of course a discussion on the *defaults*, any user with  
>>>> minimal
>>>> Csound experience should be able to grasp the idea of changing the
>>>> sampling rate with the sr opcode or using the -c/-8 or -3  
>>>> arguments...
>>>>
>>>> Which brings me to a question: clearly libsndfile supports  
>>>> rendering 32
>>>> bit float audio files but there isn't really a commandline flag that
>>>> makes rendering a file of this type clear. I see only the
>>>>
>>>> "-f      float sound samples"
>>>>
>>>> in the output of csound --help. How might one render a 32 bit float
>>>> .wav file for example? What flags would be needed?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -David
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 15, 2006, at 9:40 AM, Steven Yi wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>> I found that it's not just USB, but also at least the built-in  
>>>>> Intel
>>>>> AC97 sound chip in my laptop (and I would many other laptops).   
>>>>> More
>>>>> importantly than the latency though was the coloration of the  
>>>>> sound,
>>>>> which I found to be a bigger issue.  Perhaps it was just a non- 
>>>>> optimal
>>>>> upsampling algorithm used somewhere in the signal chain, but it was
>>>>> enough to bother me to switch to 48kHz.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem with 48kHz though is that it doesn't play well with  
>>>>> 44.1
>>>>> sampled wave files or files related to that.  It's also a reason  
>>>>> why I
>>>>> don't use fluidsynth so much because soundfonts tend to be 44.1 and
>>>>> they get pictched up when used in a 48k sr project.
>>>>>
>>>>> For Mac's, it looks like 48k is fine, as-is 96khz:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Conceptual/
>>>>> HWTech_Audio/Articles/Audio_implementation.html
>>>>>
>>>>> So... doesn't seem to be a very clear winner in this to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> steven
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/15/06, Andres Cabrera  wrote:
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Hi Dr. B,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 48k will only be faster if 44.1k is not directly supported by the
>>>>>> audio
>>>>>> interface. This is the case with many USB soundcards, which  
>>>>>> have to
>>>>>> do a
>>>>>> sample rate conversion in the driver (software). But this is
>>>>>> particular
>>>>>> to Usb interfaces, all other cards will not benefit from this.
>>>>>> This makes me think that defaults should work, but not be  
>>>>>> optimized
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> a particular setup, they would probably produce high latency  
>>>>>> and be
>>>>>> inefficient, but I think what's important is that the work without
>>>>>> stuttering in all systems (if that's possible... maybe it isn't?)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Andr??s
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> If 48k is faster, that's news to me and I would be happy to  
>>>>>>> choose
>>>>>>> the faster rate as a default.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are there issues with 48k on the mac?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -dB
>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Steven Yi wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I tend to use 48000 for realtime and 44100 for wav.  For me,  
>>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>>>> found that because 48000 is the native resolution on the audio
>>>>>>>> devices
>>>>>>>> I use (the laptops builtin sound card and a USB sound card I  
>>>>>>>> use),
>>>>>>>> I've gotten better performance with that due to no translation.
>>>>>>>> Also,
>>>>>>>> more importantly, I've found that the sound of the audio I was
>>>>>>>> working
>>>>>>>> with when rendering 44.1 on a 48k device was colored so that it
>>>>>>>> wasn't
>>>>>>>> representative of what I heard when rendering 44.1 to CD and  
>>>>>>>> playing
>>>>>>>> on a stereo.  Rendering at 48k works though for me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just to add a little more fuel to the debate. :P
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> steven
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 12/14/06, Victor Lazzarini  wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>> I also prefer 44100.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Victor
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> Anthony Kozar  writes:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to be difficult, but I would personally
>>>>>>>>>>> rather have sr = 44100 and ksmps = 16 than this.  (And I
>>>>>>>>>>> like the current defaults the most).
>>>>>>>>>>> The issue here for me is that the Macintosh world has a
>>>>>>>>>>> long history of built-in sound hardware with drivers
>>>>>>>>>>> that support ONLY 44100, 22050, and 11025 sampling
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>> rates.  I don't know if this is true of machines within
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>>> the last few years, but it was from the early '90s
>>>>>>>>>>> through probably '01 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>> I wasn't aware of that. Sorry. Myself, I only use linux,
>>>>>>>>>> and never use the default sr/ksmps, rarely the default -b
>>>>>>>>>> -B. I don't want to be difficult either. My concern over
>>>>>>>>>> this only arises because I wrote a couple of example
>>>>>>>>>> instruments for rt audio in/out, and when I started to
>>>>>>>>>> document them, realised that the defaults wouldn't work.
>>>>>>>>>> It seems necessary that there be defaults, but it also
>>>>>>>>>> seems necessary that the defaults work. For my personal
>>>>>>>>>> use of csound, none of this matters in the slightest, if
>>>>>>>>>> the defaults became problematic for me I could just change
>>>>>>>>>> them before compiling. It's often said that csound is
>>>>>>>>>> difficult to learn, but easy to use once you've grasped
>>>>>>>>>> the basics, and I think that that's valid. I'd just like
>>>>>>>>>> to make it easier for people to get over that first big
>>>>>>>>>> hurdle, so that they can get on with making great music.
>>>>>>>>>> I'm not a developer, so all of this is really out of my
>>>>>>>>>> hands anyway. The request to find a better compromise in
>>>>>>>>>> terms of the default settings is only that, a request,
>>>>>>>>>> regardless of how grumpy and uptight I may have sounded at
>>>>>>>>>> times. Sure that you'll all appreciate it if I shut up at
>>>>>>>>>> this point, so that's that. If there's a change it'll be
>>>>>>>>>> posted, otherwise I'll present some information as best I
>>>>>>>>>> can regardless.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jonathan.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> --------------- Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the
>>>>>>>>>> Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and
>>>>>>>>>> you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT &
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>>>>>>>>>>                     
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>>>>>>>>>                   
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>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
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Err... I meant ksmps = 16 or 32.

*cough*

JP




Julian Peterson wrote:
> I agree.  Also, wasn't it discussed on this list that it is NOT 
> necessary for kr to be an integer?  I don't see any reason to change the 
> defaults; if we did it might be more reasonable to set the defaults to 
> sr=44100 and kr=16 or 32.
>
> Please correct me if I am wrong about kr.
>
> Thanks,
> Julian Peterson
>
>
> Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
>   
>> That kr is way too high for the default.
>>
>> -dB
>>
>> On Dec 17, 2006, at 12:47 AM, Jonathan Murphy wrote:
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> It seems that most people prefer 44100. In which case, there is
>>> another option, which would be to change ksmps to 4 (highest power of
>>> two which is a divisor of 44100), kr to 11025. In most cases this
>>> would be an improvement. I'm attaching the test instruments that I
>>> wrote (they're kind of dumb instruments, the idea is just to chew up
>>> some cpu cycles). These run fine under linux with default -b & -B. If
>>> they could be tested on the other platforms that would be great, but I
>>> can't see that there should be any problem. The first is just ins with
>>> some fx, the second is similar but requires rtmidi input.
>>>
>>> Anyone foresee any problems with sr = 44100, kr = 11025, ksmps = 4?
>>>
>>> J.
>>>
>>> Michael Gogins  writes:
>>>
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> We could default to 48 KHz for real-time audio,  and 44.1 KHz for  
>>>> soundfile rendering, no?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> From: David Akbari 
>>>>> Sent: Dec 15, 2006 10:52 AM
>>>>> To: Developer discussions 
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] sensekey
>>>>>
>>>>> I would place my vote for 44.1 kHz if, for no other reason, that the
>>>>> Red Book CD-Audio standard defines this as the nominal sampling rate
>>>>> for playback.
>>>>>
>>>>> One could argue that using 48 kHz would coincide with the DVD  
>>>>> medium,
>>>>> but as it is, Csound is configured to work also using 16 bits of
>>>>> dynamic range, with 8 bit or 24 bit as optional flags. The latter of
>>>>> course coinciding with the DVD/48 kHz camp.
>>>>>
>>>>> In general it seems that for the moment using Red Book CD audio as a
>>>>> preferred delivery media is both cheap and practical for the general
>>>>> user of Csound. Obviously if the delivery media is some kind of hard
>>>>> disk or bandwidth using the internet, higher sampling rates and bit
>>>>> depths for dynamic range could be preferred, but if you consider the
>>>>> Red Book CD audio paradigm, you'd have to use some kind of dithering
>>>>> and sample rate conversion which could adversely affect your
>>>>> synthesized sound.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is of course a discussion on the *defaults*, any user with  
>>>>> minimal
>>>>> Csound experience should be able to grasp the idea of changing the
>>>>> sampling rate with the sr opcode or using the -c/-8 or -3  
>>>>> arguments...
>>>>>
>>>>> Which brings me to a question: clearly libsndfile supports  
>>>>> rendering 32
>>>>> bit float audio files but there isn't really a commandline flag that
>>>>> makes rendering a file of this type clear. I see only the
>>>>>
>>>>> "-f      float sound samples"
>>>>>
>>>>> in the output of csound --help. How might one render a 32 bit float
>>>>> .wav file for example? What flags would be needed?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 15, 2006, at 9:40 AM, Steven Yi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I found that it's not just USB, but also at least the built-in  
>>>>>> Intel
>>>>>> AC97 sound chip in my laptop (and I would many other laptops).   
>>>>>> More
>>>>>> importantly than the latency though was the coloration of the  
>>>>>> sound,
>>>>>> which I found to be a bigger issue.  Perhaps it was just a non- 
>>>>>> optimal
>>>>>> upsampling algorithm used somewhere in the signal chain, but it was
>>>>>> enough to bother me to switch to 48kHz.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem with 48kHz though is that it doesn't play well with  
>>>>>> 44.1
>>>>>> sampled wave files or files related to that.  It's also a reason  
>>>>>> why I
>>>>>> don't use fluidsynth so much because soundfonts tend to be 44.1 and
>>>>>> they get pictched up when used in a 48k sr project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For Mac's, it looks like 48k is fine, as-is 96khz:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Conceptual/
>>>>>> HWTech_Audio/Articles/Audio_implementation.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So... doesn't seem to be a very clear winner in this to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> steven
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/15/06, Andres Cabrera  wrote:
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> Hi Dr. B,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 48k will only be faster if 44.1k is not directly supported by the
>>>>>>> audio
>>>>>>> interface. This is the case with many USB soundcards, which  
>>>>>>> have to
>>>>>>> do a
>>>>>>> sample rate conversion in the driver (software). But this is
>>>>>>> particular
>>>>>>> to Usb interfaces, all other cards will not benefit from this.
>>>>>>> This makes me think that defaults should work, but not be  
>>>>>>> optimized
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> a particular setup, they would probably produce high latency  
>>>>>>> and be
>>>>>>> inefficient, but I think what's important is that the work without
>>>>>>> stuttering in all systems (if that's possible... maybe it isn't?)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Andr??s
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>> If 48k is faster, that's news to me and I would be happy to  
>>>>>>>> choose
>>>>>>>> the faster rate as a default.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Are there issues with 48k on the mac?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -dB
>>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Steven Yi wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I tend to use 48000 for realtime and 44100 for wav.  For me,  
>>>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>>>>> found that because 48000 is the native resolution on the audio
>>>>>>>>> devices
>>>>>>>>> I use (the laptops builtin sound card and a USB sound card I  
>>>>>>>>> use),
>>>>>>>>> I've gotten better performance with that due to no translation.
>>>>>>>>> Also,
>>>>>>>>> more importantly, I've found that the sound of the audio I was
>>>>>>>>> working
>>>>>>>>> with when rendering 44.1 on a 48k device was colored so that it
>>>>>>>>> wasn't
>>>>>>>>> representative of what I heard when rendering 44.1 to CD and  
>>>>>>>>> playing
>>>>>>>>> on a stereo.  Rendering at 48k works though for me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just to add a little more fuel to the debate. :P
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> steven
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 12/14/06, Victor Lazzarini  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> I also prefer 44100.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Victor
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>>> Anthony Kozar  writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to be difficult, but I would personally
>>>>>>>>>>>> rather have sr = 44100 and ksmps = 16 than this.  (And I
>>>>>>>>>>>> like the current defaults the most).
>>>>>>>>>>>> The issue here for me is that the Macintosh world has a
>>>>>>>>>>>> long history of built-in sound hardware with drivers
>>>>>>>>>>>> that support ONLY 44100, 22050, and 11025 sampling
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
>>>>>>>>>>> rates.  I don't know if this is true of machines within
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>> the last few years, but it was from the early '90s
>>>>>>>>>>>> through probably '01 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
>>>>>>>>>>> I wasn't aware of that. Sorry. Myself, I only use linux,
>>>>>>>>>>> and never use the default sr/ksmps, rarely the default -b
>>>>>>>>>>> -B. I don't want to be difficult either. My concern over
>>>>>>>>>>> this only arises because I wrote a couple of example
>>>>>>>>>>> instruments for rt audio in/out, and when I started to
>>>>>>>>>>> document them, realised that the defaults wouldn't work.
>>>>>>>>>>> It seems necessary that there be defaults, but it also
>>>>>>>>>>> seems necessary that the defaults work. For my personal
>>>>>>>>>>> use of csound, none of this matters in the slightest, if
>>>>>>>>>>> the defaults became problematic for me I could just change
>>>>>>>>>>> them before compiling. It's often said that csound is
>>>>>>>>>>> difficult to learn, but easy to use once you've grasped
>>>>>>>>>>> the basics, and I think that that's valid. I'd just like
>>>>>>>>>>> to make it easier for people to get over that first big
>>>>>>>>>>> hurdle, so that they can get on with making great music.
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not a developer, so all of this is really out of my
>>>>>>>>>>> hands anyway. The request to find a better compromise in
>>>>>>>>>>> terms of the default settings is only that, a request,
>>>>>>>>>>> regardless of how grumpy and uptight I may have sounded at
>>>>>>>>>>> times. Sure that you'll all appreciate it if I shut up at
>>>>>>>>>>> this point, so that's that. If there's a change it'll be
>>>>>>>>>>> posted, otherwise I'll present some information as best I
>>>>>>>>>>> can regardless.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jonathan.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> --------------- Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the
>>>>>>>>>>> Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and
>>>>>>>>>>> you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT &
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>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.techsay.com/default.php?
>>>>>>>>>> page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Csound-devel mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>>>>>>>>>>
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The reason that I suggested changing the defaults is that the
current defaults will not work for realtime audio-in under linux or
windows. Anthony pointed out a problem with non-integral kr, so it
appears that there is no solution that will please everyone. In which
case it seems unlikely that the defaults will change. So to punctuate
an overlong thread, here is a basic summation of the current defaults,
and a digression on a polyphony. I hope that it will be useful to
Andres, and that in combination with the example instruments (I'm
attaching revised versions, apologies to anyone forced to listen to
them again), it satisfies most of the requirements put forward by Art
and Dr B a week or so ago.

J.



The current defaults for the variables and flags under discussion are
as follows:

All platforms:

sr    = 44100
kr    = 4410
ksmps = 10

Linux:

-b 256
-B 1024

Macintosh:

-b 1024
-B 4096

Windows:

-b 4096
-B 16384

If you have read the command-line flags section of the manual, you
will observe that there is a problem with the aforementioned
defaults. To whit, when realtime audio input is required, the value
assigned to -b must be an integer multiple of ksmps. This is further
complicated by the fact that many soundcards are incapable of working
with frame-sizes that are not powers of two greater than the bitrate
of the soundcard in question. For this reason, it is highly
recommended, where at all possible, to use a sample rate such as 48000,
96000, or 192000, both for the increased audio quality provided and
in order to use audio in with an integral control rate. A ksmps of 16
provides an (in most cases) adequate compromise between audio quality
and performance. If it is impossible to work with a sample rate other
than 44100, but realtime audio input is required, it is recommended to
change the value of ksmps to a power of two greater than or equal to
16. This is not strictly speaking desirable, as one is left with a
non-integral value for kr, which may prove problematic. For the sake
of simplicity, the accompanying examples assume that users are able to
alter the sample rate to 48000Hz. It is unneccesary to provide values
for more than two of the global variables sr, kr and ksmps, the
remaining variable will be calculated as the quotient or product of the
specified two.
 

Latency Time

As far as Csound is concerned, latency time is determined by dividing
the hardware buffer size by the sample rate. Thus, for sr = 48000, the
defaults are as follows:

Linux:

0.021333333 seconds, % 21 ms

Macintosh:

0.085333333 seconds, % 85 ms

Windows:

0.34133333 seconds, % 341 ms

Under Linux, using the ALSA driver or JACK server, this will be the
actual latency time. When using the PortAudio server (regardless of
operating system), this value is passed to the server as a suggested
time, the actual latency time is beyond the control of Csound. An
additional command-line flag is available to Macintosh users,
-+buffnos, the default is 2, in which case, and when using the
Core Audio driver, latency time should be as defined above, however if
the value assigned to this flag is changed, latency time will
differ. In all situations where an audio driver or server requires the
user to set a value for latency time, it is essential that the value
match that specified as Csound's buffer size.

It is hoped that the defaults will provide ample buffer sizes for most
users, most of the time. It is obvious that they will not provide
desirable realtime performance. A simple method for reducing buffer
sizes is outlined in . Running the
example instruments repeatedly, altering the values as described,
should give you a rough indication of the realtime capabilities of your
system. These are simple instruments, more demanding instruments will
require higher values for ksmps and/or -b, and perhaps also -B.


Realtime, ksmps & Polyphony

Csound supports virtually unlimited polyphony. Unfortunately your
processor does not. If you are using a realtime controller, and are
generating many simultaneous note events (playing quickly), it is
likely that you will encounter some problems (sound breakup). There
are a couple of ways to deal with this.

1.     Limit polyphony with the maxalloc opcode. This is a hard limit.
       More sophisticated methods like note stealing are currently
       left to the user's ingenuity. 

2.     Increase the value of ksmps. This is at the expense of audio
       quality.

Often a combination of the above methods will result in the closest
approximation to the desired effect. The amount of active notes, in
the kind of situation under discussion, is affected primarily by the
duration of envelopes. If a short release time is given, notes will
terminate quickly, and so rapid playing is possible. If envelopes have
a longer release time, or a device such as a hold pedal is employed,
then many notes may be simultaneously active. In the case of the "r"
family of envelopes, the maximum release time is equal to((2^32/2) -
1)/kr in seconds. This is already a much longer release time than it
would ever be practical to use, the important thing to note is that
decreasing the value of kr (increasing ksmps) will allow the use of
longer release times. Doubling ksmps will double the effective maximum
release time, but it will also halve the audio quality. For small
values of ksmps this may not be noticeable, however a muted tone and
the presence of artifacts will become apparent when larger values of
ksmps are used. If you want "unlimited" polyphony and long note
release times, it will probably be necessary to use a reverb
instrument. This is much more efficient, as one always-on instrument
can handle all of the extended note-releases. Obviously this is not
exactly the same thing as a long envelope release, however it is often
the next best thing. Csound was originally designed as an
uncompromising, deferred time application. Realtime introduces a first
compromise, and from there it becomes a delicate balancing act, with
imagination on the one hand and hardware on the other.





Julian Peterson  writes:

> Err... I meant ksmps = 16 or 32.
>
> *cough*
>
> JP
>
>
>
>
> Julian Peterson wrote:
>> I agree.  Also, wasn't it discussed on this list that it is NOT 
>> necessary for kr to be an integer?  I don't see any reason to change the 
>> defaults; if we did it might be more reasonable to set the defaults to 
>> sr=44100 and kr=16 or 32.
>>
>> Please correct me if I am wrong about kr.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Julian Peterson
>>
>>
>> Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
>>   
>>> That kr is way too high for the default.
>>>
>>> -dB
>>>
>>> On Dec 17, 2006, at 12:47 AM, Jonathan Murphy wrote:
>>>
>>>   
>>>     
>>>> It seems that most people prefer 44100. In which case, there is
>>>> another option, which would be to change ksmps to 4 (highest power of
>>>> two which is a divisor of 44100), kr to 11025. In most cases this
>>>> would be an improvement. I'm attaching the test instruments that I
>>>> wrote (they're kind of dumb instruments, the idea is just to chew up
>>>> some cpu cycles). These run fine under linux with default -b & -B. If
>>>> they could be tested on the other platforms that would be great, but I
>>>> can't see that there should be any problem. The first is just ins with
>>>> some fx, the second is similar but requires rtmidi input.
>>>>
>>>> Anyone foresee any problems with sr = 44100, kr = 11025, ksmps = 4?
>>>>
>>>> J.
>>>>
>>>> Michael Gogins  writes:
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>> We could default to 48 KHz for real-time audio,  and 44.1 KHz for  
>>>>> soundfile rendering, no?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>> From: David Akbari 
>>>>>> Sent: Dec 15, 2006 10:52 AM
>>>>>> To: Developer discussions 
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] sensekey
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would place my vote for 44.1 kHz if, for no other reason, that the
>>>>>> Red Book CD-Audio standard defines this as the nominal sampling rate
>>>>>> for playback.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One could argue that using 48 kHz would coincide with the DVD  
>>>>>> medium,
>>>>>> but as it is, Csound is configured to work also using 16 bits of
>>>>>> dynamic range, with 8 bit or 24 bit as optional flags. The latter of
>>>>>> course coinciding with the DVD/48 kHz camp.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In general it seems that for the moment using Red Book CD audio as a
>>>>>> preferred delivery media is both cheap and practical for the general
>>>>>> user of Csound. Obviously if the delivery media is some kind of hard
>>>>>> disk or bandwidth using the internet, higher sampling rates and bit
>>>>>> depths for dynamic range could be preferred, but if you consider the
>>>>>> Red Book CD audio paradigm, you'd have to use some kind of dithering
>>>>>> and sample rate conversion which could adversely affect your
>>>>>> synthesized sound.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is of course a discussion on the *defaults*, any user with  
>>>>>> minimal
>>>>>> Csound experience should be able to grasp the idea of changing the
>>>>>> sampling rate with the sr opcode or using the -c/-8 or -3  
>>>>>> arguments...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which brings me to a question: clearly libsndfile supports  
>>>>>> rendering 32
>>>>>> bit float audio files but there isn't really a commandline flag that
>>>>>> makes rendering a file of this type clear. I see only the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "-f      float sound samples"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> in the output of csound --help. How might one render a 32 bit float
>>>>>> .wav file for example? What flags would be needed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Dec 15, 2006, at 9:40 AM, Steven Yi wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I found that it's not just USB, but also at least the built-in  
>>>>>>> Intel
>>>>>>> AC97 sound chip in my laptop (and I would many other laptops).   
>>>>>>> More
>>>>>>> importantly than the latency though was the coloration of the  
>>>>>>> sound,
>>>>>>> which I found to be a bigger issue.  Perhaps it was just a non- 
>>>>>>> optimal
>>>>>>> upsampling algorithm used somewhere in the signal chain, but it was
>>>>>>> enough to bother me to switch to 48kHz.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The problem with 48kHz though is that it doesn't play well with  
>>>>>>> 44.1
>>>>>>> sampled wave files or files related to that.  It's also a reason  
>>>>>>> why I
>>>>>>> don't use fluidsynth so much because soundfonts tend to be 44.1 and
>>>>>>> they get pictched up when used in a 48k sr project.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For Mac's, it looks like 48k is fine, as-is 96khz:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Conceptual/
>>>>>>> HWTech_Audio/Articles/Audio_implementation.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So... doesn't seem to be a very clear winner in this to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> steven
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 12/15/06, Andres Cabrera  wrote:
>>>>>>>           
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>> Hi Dr. B,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 48k will only be faster if 44.1k is not directly supported by the
>>>>>>>> audio
>>>>>>>> interface. This is the case with many USB soundcards, which  
>>>>>>>> have to
>>>>>>>> do a
>>>>>>>> sample rate conversion in the driver (software). But this is
>>>>>>>> particular
>>>>>>>> to Usb interfaces, all other cards will not benefit from this.
>>>>>>>> This makes me think that defaults should work, but not be  
>>>>>>>> optimized
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> a particular setup, they would probably produce high latency  
>>>>>>>> and be
>>>>>>>> inefficient, but I think what's important is that the work without
>>>>>>>> stuttering in all systems (if that's possible... maybe it isn't?)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> Andr??s
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
>>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>> If 48k is faster, that's news to me and I would be happy to  
>>>>>>>>> choose
>>>>>>>>> the faster rate as a default.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Are there issues with 48k on the mac?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -dB
>>>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Steven Yi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I tend to use 48000 for realtime and 44100 for wav.  For me,  
>>>>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>>>>>> found that because 48000 is the native resolution on the audio
>>>>>>>>>> devices
>>>>>>>>>> I use (the laptops builtin sound card and a USB sound card I  
>>>>>>>>>> use),
>>>>>>>>>> I've gotten better performance with that due to no translation.
>>>>>>>>>> Also,
>>>>>>>>>> more importantly, I've found that the sound of the audio I was
>>>>>>>>>> working
>>>>>>>>>> with when rendering 44.1 on a 48k device was colored so that it
>>>>>>>>>> wasn't
>>>>>>>>>> representative of what I heard when rendering 44.1 to CD and  
>>>>>>>>>> playing
>>>>>>>>>> on a stereo.  Rendering at 48k works though for me.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Just to add a little more fuel to the debate. :P
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> steven
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 12/14/06, Victor Lazzarini  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>> I also prefer 44100.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Victor
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>>>> Anthony Kozar  writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to be difficult, but I would personally
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather have sr = 44100 and ksmps = 16 than this.  (And I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like the current defaults the most).
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The issue here for me is that the Macintosh world has a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> long history of built-in sound hardware with drivers
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that support ONLY 44100, 22050, and 11025 sampling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
>>>>>>>>>>>> rates.  I don't know if this is true of machines within
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the last few years, but it was from the early '90s
>>>>>>>>>>>>> through probably '01 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
>>>>>>>>>>>> I wasn't aware of that. Sorry. Myself, I only use linux,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and never use the default sr/ksmps, rarely the default -b
>>>>>>>>>>>> -B. I don't want to be difficult either. My concern over
>>>>>>>>>>>> this only arises because I wrote a couple of example
>>>>>>>>>>>> instruments for rt audio in/out, and when I started to
>>>>>>>>>>>> document them, realised that the defaults wouldn't work.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems necessary that there be defaults, but it also
>>>>>>>>>>>> seems necessary that the defaults work. For my personal
>>>>>>>>>>>> use of csound, none of this matters in the slightest, if
>>>>>>>>>>>> the defaults became problematic for me I could just change
>>>>>>>>>>>> them before compiling. It's often said that csound is
>>>>>>>>>>>> difficult to learn, but easy to use once you've grasped
>>>>>>>>>>>> the basics, and I think that that's valid. I'd just like
>>>>>>>>>>>> to make it easier for people to get over that first big
>>>>>>>>>>>> hurdle, so that they can get on with making great music.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not a developer, so all of this is really out of my
>>>>>>>>>>>> hands anyway. The request to find a better compromise in
>>>>>>>>>>>> terms of the default settings is only that, a request,
>>>>>>>>>>>> regardless of how grumpy and uptight I may have sounded at
>>>>>>>>>>>> times. Sure that you'll all appreciate it if I shut up at
>>>>>>>>>>>> this point, so that's that. If there's a change it'll be
>>>>>>>>>>>> posted, otherwise I'll present some information as best I
>>>>>>>>>>>> can regardless.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jonathan.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>>>>                       
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
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