[Cs-dev] Proposal: add ! no-carry operator to score language
| Date | 2007-12-03 09:02 |
| From | Anthony Kozar |
| Subject | [Cs-dev] Proposal: add ! no-carry operator to score language |
With the advent of the pcount and pindex opcodes in the orchestra, it is now possible for instruments to easily handle a variable number of p-fields. An example of an application for this is an envelope with a variable number of segments specified from the score. One thing stands in the way of effectively using this technique though: the automatic carrying of i event parameters when one i event has fewer pfields than a previous one. In some other Music N languages, you must explicitly carry extra pfields like this: i1 0 1 1.0 2.0 3.0 ; 6 pfields i1 1 1 & ; 6 pfields i1 1 1 ; 3 pfields only Since we cannot change Csound to work this way without breaking backwards compatibility, I am instead suggesting that we add a score operator for explicitly telling the score parser to NOT carry any additional pfields: i1 0 1 1.0 2.0 3.0 ; 6 pfields i1 1 1 ; 6 pfields i1 2 1 2.0 ! ; 4 pfields only i1 3 1 ; 4 fields I've already located where the changes need to be made to add this new operator and I think that it will be easy to do. Is it OK to add this? Additionally, to avoid warnings from rdscor() during performance, it would be useful to have an optional orchestra opcode that defines the minimum and maximum pfields that each instrument will accept without complaint. (The defaults would be the number of pfields explicitly referenced by the orchestra code, as it is now). Anthony Kozar anthonykozar AT sbcglobal DOT net http://anthonykozar.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 _______________________________________________ Csound-devel mailing list Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net |
| Date | 2007-12-03 14:40 |
| From | "Dr. Richard Boulanger" |
| Subject | Re: [Cs-dev] Proposal: add ! no-carry operator to score language |
Anthony, This sounds like an excellent plan - a new score feature that would turn off this very very important and very very much used historical feature. -dB On Dec 3, 2007, at 4:02 AM, Anthony Kozar wrote: > With the advent of the pcount and pindex opcodes in the orchestra, > it is now > possible for instruments to easily handle a variable number of p- > fields. An > example of an application for this is an envelope with a variable > number of > segments specified from the score. One thing stands in the way of > effectively using this technique though: the automatic carrying of > i event > parameters when one i event has fewer pfields than a previous one. > > In some other Music N languages, you must explicitly carry extra > pfields > like this: > > i1 0 1 1.0 2.0 3.0 ; 6 pfields > i1 1 1 & ; 6 pfields > i1 1 1 ; 3 pfields only > > Since we cannot change Csound to work this way without breaking > backwards > compatibility, I am instead suggesting that we add a score operator > for > explicitly telling the score parser to NOT carry any additional > pfields: > > i1 0 1 1.0 2.0 3.0 ; 6 pfields > i1 1 1 ; 6 pfields > i1 2 1 2.0 ! ; 4 pfields only > i1 3 1 ; 4 fields > > I've already located where the changes need to be made to add this new > operator and I think that it will be easy to do. > > Is it OK to add this? > > Additionally, to avoid warnings from rdscor() during performance, > it would > be useful to have an optional orchestra opcode that defines the > minimum and > maximum pfields that each instrument will accept without > complaint. (The > defaults would be the number of pfields explicitly referenced by the > orchestra code, as it is now). > > Anthony Kozar > anthonykozar AT sbcglobal DOT net > http://anthonykozar.net/ > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper > from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going > mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. > http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 > _______________________________________________ > Csound-devel mailing list > Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel ------------------------------------------------------------------------- SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 _______________________________________________ Csound-devel mailing list Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net |
| Date | 2007-12-05 02:34 |
| From | Anthony Kozar |
| Subject | Re: [Cs-dev] Proposal: add ! no-carry operator to score language |
I've finished implementing this "no-carry" operator using the proposed symbol '!'. Any objections to my committing the changes? Anthony Anthony Kozar wrote on 12/3/07 4:02 AM: > I am instead suggesting that we add a score operator for > explicitly telling the score parser to NOT carry any additional pfields: > > i1 0 1 1.0 2.0 3.0 ; 6 pfields > i1 1 1 ; 6 pfields > i1 2 1 2.0 ! ; 4 pfields only > i1 3 1 ; 4 fields > Is it OK to add this? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 _______________________________________________ Csound-devel mailing list Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net |
| Date | 2007-12-05 03:35 |
| From | Jacob Joaquin |
| Subject | Re: [Cs-dev] Proposal: add ! no-carry operator to score language |
Hey Anthony, Would it be possible to see some orchestra instrument examples to go along with the "no-carry" operator? I might have a few suggestions, but I want to know a little more about what you're proposing. For the record, I really like this idea of a "no-carry" operator. Best, Jake ---- The Csound Blog http://www.thumbuki.com/csound/blog Anthony Kozar wrote: > > I've finished implementing this "no-carry" operator using the proposed > symbol '!'. Any objections to my committing the changes? > > Anthony > -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Proposal%3A-add-%21-no-carry-operator-to-score-language-tf4935133.html#a14164643 Sent from the Csound - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 _______________________________________________ Csound-devel mailing list Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net |
| Date | 2007-12-05 04:39 |
| From | Anthony Kozar |
| Subject | Re: [Cs-dev] Proposal: add ! no-carry operator to score language |
Jacob Joaquin wrote on 12/4/07 10:35 PM: > Would it be possible to see some orchestra instrument examples to go along > with the "no-carry" operator? I might have a few suggestions, but I want to > know a little more about what you're proposing. > > For the record, I really like this idea of a "no-carry" operator. Thanks. Here is the example that I was using to test it. several of the events intentionally contain errors to provoke the code that is supposed to catch them. The ! should always come at the end of a line containing an 'i' event. Anthony ; flexenv.csd ; An instrument that reads a flexible number of envelope ; parameters as pfields. |
| Date | 2007-12-05 20:08 |
| From | Jacob Joaquin |
| Subject | Re: [Cs-dev] Proposal: add ! no-carry operator to score language |
Anthony,
Here's some pseudo code that explains some thoughts I've had:
--------
instr 1
iamp pfieldgrab p4, 1.0 ; Get amplitude. If no p4 exists, use default
value of 1.0
ifreq pfieldgrab cpspch( p5 ), 440 ; Get pch, convert to frequency. If
no p5 exists, use 440.
a1 oscil iamp, ifreq, 1
out a1 * 0dbfs
endin
...
f1 0 8192 10 1
i1 0 1 1 8.00
i1 + . . 8.02
i1 + . . ! ; p5 uses default value of 440
i1 + . ! ; p4 & p5 use default values 1.0 and 440
i1 + . ? 8.04 ; p4 uses default value, and uses cpspch( 8.04 )
--------
There are two things I've added.
First is the opcode pfieldgrab. The first parameter is the pfield it tries
to grab a value from. If it exists, it uses it. However, if no value
exists, it will use the value in the second parameter.
The second thing I introduced is "?" in the score. The idea is to be able
to skip a p-field in the score, while still being able to enter in values
for p-fields beyond the skipped p-field. Alternatively, I guess we could
re-use the "!" glyph for skipping p-fields. For example (assume there are 6
p-fields):
--------
; all of these are valid
i2 0 1 1 8.00 0.5
i2 1 1 1 8.00 !
i2 2 1 1 !
i2 3 1 !
i2 4 1 1 ! 0.5 ; skip p5, and still grab the value in p6
i2 5 1 ! ! 0.5; skip p4 and p5
--------
Basically, if there are no more p-fields after "!", then use default values
for all proceeding p-fields. If there are more values after "!", then use
these specified values.
Just some ideas I had. Hopefully useful. The name pfieldgrab and the score
glyph "?" are completely temporary.
Best,
Jake
----
The Csound Blog
http://www.thumbuki.com/csound/blog
Anthony Kozar wrote:
>
> Thanks. Here is the example that I was using to test it. several of the
> events intentionally contain errors to provoke the code that is supposed
> to
> catch them. The ! should always come at the end of a line containing an
> 'i'
> event.
>
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Proposal%3A-add-%21-no-carry-operator-to-score-language-tf4935133.html#a14179526
Sent from the Csound - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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| Date | 2007-12-05 21:19 |
| From | Anthony Kozar |
| Subject | Re: [Cs-dev] Proposal: add ! no-carry operator to score language |
Jacob Joaquin wrote on 12/5/07 3:08 PM: > -------- > instr 1 > iamp pfieldgrab p4, 1.0 ; Get amplitude. If no p4 exists, use default > value of 1.0 > ifreq pfieldgrab cpspch( p5 ), 440 ; Get pch, convert to frequency. If > no p5 exists, use 440. pfieldgrab could be implemented rather easily as an UDO -- almost identical to the mypvalue UDO in the example that I posted. But you would have to use "4" instead of "p4". "p4" will just try to pass the _value_ of p4 to the UDO. Your semantics in the second example (cpspch(p5) affecting the output instead of the input to the UDO) are also problematic. I see no easy way to make either of these semantic changes for a parameter to any opcode. > i1 0 1 1 8.00 > i1 + . . 8.02 > i1 + . . ! ; p5 uses default value of 440 > i1 + . ! ; p4 & p5 use default values 1.0 and 440 The above score lines should all work with ! as I have implemented it and an UDO pfieldgrab. > i1 + . ? 8.04 ; p4 uses default value, and uses cpspch( 8.04 ) This is very problematic. The score parser maintains a count of the pfields associated with each score event and assumes they are in order p1, p2, etc. Trying to allow for non-existent fields in the middle of the array would (IMHO) be horribly complicated. You could probably achieve a similar result by assigning your own semantics to certain values. For example, since neither amplitude nor pitch make much sense when negative, your orchestra code could interpret a -1 value as "use the default". > Just some ideas I had. Hopefully useful. The name pfieldgrab and the score > glyph "?" are completely temporary. Using ! to prevent carrying so that an instrument can infer default values is a fine example of its intended applications. But I personally do not see how we can reasonably implement your proposed extension for skipping arbitrary p-fields. Sorry. Anthony Kozar anthonykozar AT sbcglobal DOT net http://anthonykozar.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 _______________________________________________ Csound-devel mailing list Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net |
| Date | 2007-12-05 22:10 |
| From | Jacob Joaquin |
| Subject | Re: [Cs-dev] Proposal: add ! no-carry operator to score language |
Don't worry about. I understand that Csound coded itself into a corner over the years, and that it's not really all that flexible internally, as just about every recommendation I've ever posted has been shot down for "technical" reasons. Like the old adage goes, "A girl can dream, can't she?" :) Best, Jake ---- The Csound Blog http://www.thumbuki.com/csound/blog Anthony Kozar wrote: > > Using ! to prevent carrying so that an instrument can infer default values > is a fine example of its intended applications. But I personally do not > see > how we can reasonably implement your proposed extension for skipping > arbitrary p-fields. Sorry. > -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Proposal%3A-add-%21-no-carry-operator-to-score-language-tf4935133.html#a14181190 Sent from the Csound - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 _______________________________________________ Csound-devel mailing list Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net |
| Date | 2007-12-12 02:53 |
| From | Anthony Kozar |
| Subject | [Cs-dev] Added ! no-carry operator to score language |
I have committed the no-carry operator (!) changes. It can be reverted if there are problems. Anthony Anthony Kozar wrote on 12/4/07 9:34 PM: > I've finished implementing this "no-carry" operator using the proposed symbol > '!'. Any objections to my committing the changes? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace. It's the best place to buy or sell services for just about anything Open Source. http://sourceforge.net/services/buy/index.php _______________________________________________ Csound-devel mailing list Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net |