I also prefer 44100.

Victor

>
>
> Anthony Kozar  writes:
>
> > I don't mean to be difficult, but I would personally
> > rather have sr = 44100 and ksmps = 16 than this.  (And I
> > like the current defaults the most).
> > The issue here for me is that the Macintosh world has a
> > long history of built-in sound hardware with drivers
> > that support ONLY 44100, 22050, and 11025 sampling
> rates.  I don't know if this is true of machines within
> > the last few years, but it was from the early '90s
> > through probably '01 or so.
>
> I wasn't aware of that. Sorry. Myself, I only use linux,
> and never use the default sr/ksmps, rarely the default -b
> -B. I don't want to be difficult either. My concern over
> this only arises because I wrote a couple of example
> instruments for rt audio in/out, and when I started to
> document them, realised that the defaults wouldn't work.
> It seems necessary that there be defaults, but it also
> seems necessary that the defaults work. For my personal
> use of csound, none of this matters in the slightest, if
> the defaults became problematic for me I could just change
> them before compiling. It's often said that csound is
> difficult to learn, but easy to use once you've grasped
> the basics, and I think that that's valid. I'd just like
> to make it easier for people to get over that first big
> hurdle, so that they can get on with making great music.
> I'm not a developer, so all of this is really out of my
> hands anyway. The request to find a better compromise in
> terms of the default settings is only that, a request,
> regardless of how grumpy and uptight I may have sounded at
> times. Sure that you'll all appreciate it if I shut up at
> this point, so that's that. If there's a change it'll be
> posted, otherwise I'll present some information as best I
> can regardless.
>
> Jonathan.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
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I prefer 44100

On Dec 14, 2006, at 4:16 AM, Victor Lazzarini wrote:

> I also prefer 44100.
>
> Victor
>
>>
>>
>> Anthony Kozar  writes:
>>
>>> I don't mean to be difficult, but I would personally
>>> rather have sr = 44100 and ksmps = 16 than this.  (And I
>>> like the current defaults the most).
>>> The issue here for me is that the Macintosh world has a
>>> long history of built-in sound hardware with drivers
>>> that support ONLY 44100, 22050, and 11025 sampling
>> rates.  I don't know if this is true of machines within
>>> the last few years, but it was from the early '90s
>>> through probably '01 or so.
>>
>> I wasn't aware of that. Sorry. Myself, I only use linux,
>> and never use the default sr/ksmps, rarely the default -b
>> -B. I don't want to be difficult either. My concern over
>> this only arises because I wrote a couple of example
>> instruments for rt audio in/out, and when I started to
>> document them, realised that the defaults wouldn't work.
>> It seems necessary that there be defaults, but it also
>> seems necessary that the defaults work. For my personal
>> use of csound, none of this matters in the slightest, if
>> the defaults became problematic for me I could just change
>> them before compiling. It's often said that csound is
>> difficult to learn, but easy to use once you've grasped
>> the basics, and I think that that's valid. I'd just like
>> to make it easier for people to get over that first big
>> hurdle, so that they can get on with making great music.
>> I'm not a developer, so all of this is really out of my
>> hands anyway. The request to find a better compromise in
>> terms of the default settings is only that, a request,
>> regardless of how grumpy and uptight I may have sounded at
>> times. Sure that you'll all appreciate it if I shut up at
>> this point, so that's that. If there's a change it'll be
>> posted, otherwise I'll present some information as best I
>> can regardless.
>>
>> Jonathan.
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
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>> Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and
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If 48k is faster, that's news to me and I would be happy to choose  
the faster rate as a default.

Are there issues with 48k on the mac?

-dB
On Dec 14, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Steven Yi wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I tend to use 48000 for realtime and 44100 for wav.  For me, I've
> found that because 48000 is the native resolution on the audio devices
> I use (the laptops builtin sound card and a USB sound card I use),
> I've gotten better performance with that due to no translation.  Also,
> more importantly, I've found that the sound of the audio I was working
> with when rendering 44.1 on a 48k device was colored so that it wasn't
> representative of what I heard when rendering 44.1 to CD and playing
> on a stereo.  Rendering at 48k works though for me.
>
> Just to add a little more fuel to the debate. :P
>
> steven
>
>
>
> On 12/14/06, Victor Lazzarini  wrote:
>> I also prefer 44100.
>>
>> Victor
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anthony Kozar  writes:
>>>
>>>> I don't mean to be difficult, but I would personally
>>>> rather have sr = 44100 and ksmps = 16 than this.  (And I
>>>> like the current defaults the most).
>>>> The issue here for me is that the Macintosh world has a
>>>> long history of built-in sound hardware with drivers
>>>> that support ONLY 44100, 22050, and 11025 sampling
>>> rates.  I don't know if this is true of machines within
>>>> the last few years, but it was from the early '90s
>>>> through probably '01 or so.
>>>
>>> I wasn't aware of that. Sorry. Myself, I only use linux,
>>> and never use the default sr/ksmps, rarely the default -b
>>> -B. I don't want to be difficult either. My concern over
>>> this only arises because I wrote a couple of example
>>> instruments for rt audio in/out, and when I started to
>>> document them, realised that the defaults wouldn't work.
>>> It seems necessary that there be defaults, but it also
>>> seems necessary that the defaults work. For my personal
>>> use of csound, none of this matters in the slightest, if
>>> the defaults became problematic for me I could just change
>>> them before compiling. It's often said that csound is
>>> difficult to learn, but easy to use once you've grasped
>>> the basics, and I think that that's valid. I'd just like
>>> to make it easier for people to get over that first big
>>> hurdle, so that they can get on with making great music.
>>> I'm not a developer, so all of this is really out of my
>>> hands anyway. The request to find a better compromise in
>>> terms of the default settings is only that, a request,
>>> regardless of how grumpy and uptight I may have sounded at
>>> times. Sure that you'll all appreciate it if I shut up at
>>> this point, so that's that. If there's a change it'll be
>>> posted, otherwise I'll present some information as best I
>>> can regardless.
>>>
>>> Jonathan.
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>> --------------- Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the
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Hi Dr. B,

48k will only be faster if 44.1k is not directly supported by the audio
interface. This is the case with many USB soundcards, which have to do a
sample rate conversion in the driver (software). But this is particular
to Usb interfaces, all other cards will not benefit from this.
This makes me think that defaults should work, but not be optimized for
a particular setup, they would probably produce high latency and be
inefficient, but I think what's important is that the work without
stuttering in all systems (if that's possible... maybe it isn't?)

Cheers,
Andrés

Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
> If 48k is faster, that's news to me and I would be happy to choose  
> the faster rate as a default.
>
> Are there issues with 48k on the mac?
>
> -dB
> On Dec 14, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Steven Yi wrote:
>
>   
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I tend to use 48000 for realtime and 44100 for wav.  For me, I've
>> found that because 48000 is the native resolution on the audio devices
>> I use (the laptops builtin sound card and a USB sound card I use),
>> I've gotten better performance with that due to no translation.  Also,
>> more importantly, I've found that the sound of the audio I was working
>> with when rendering 44.1 on a 48k device was colored so that it wasn't
>> representative of what I heard when rendering 44.1 to CD and playing
>> on a stereo.  Rendering at 48k works though for me.
>>
>> Just to add a little more fuel to the debate. :P
>>
>> steven
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/14/06, Victor Lazzarini  wrote:
>>     
>>> I also prefer 44100.
>>>
>>> Victor
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Anthony Kozar  writes:
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> I don't mean to be difficult, but I would personally
>>>>> rather have sr = 44100 and ksmps = 16 than this.  (And I
>>>>> like the current defaults the most).
>>>>> The issue here for me is that the Macintosh world has a
>>>>> long history of built-in sound hardware with drivers
>>>>> that support ONLY 44100, 22050, and 11025 sampling
>>>>>           
>>>> rates.  I don't know if this is true of machines within
>>>>         
>>>>> the last few years, but it was from the early '90s
>>>>> through probably '01 or so.
>>>>>           
>>>> I wasn't aware of that. Sorry. Myself, I only use linux,
>>>> and never use the default sr/ksmps, rarely the default -b
>>>> -B. I don't want to be difficult either. My concern over
>>>> this only arises because I wrote a couple of example
>>>> instruments for rt audio in/out, and when I started to
>>>> document them, realised that the defaults wouldn't work.
>>>> It seems necessary that there be defaults, but it also
>>>> seems necessary that the defaults work. For my personal
>>>> use of csound, none of this matters in the slightest, if
>>>> the defaults became problematic for me I could just change
>>>> them before compiling. It's often said that csound is
>>>> difficult to learn, but easy to use once you've grasped
>>>> the basics, and I think that that's valid. I'd just like
>>>> to make it easier for people to get over that first big
>>>> hurdle, so that they can get on with making great music.
>>>> I'm not a developer, so all of this is really out of my
>>>> hands anyway. The request to find a better compromise in
>>>> terms of the default settings is only that, a request,
>>>> regardless of how grumpy and uptight I may have sounded at
>>>> times. Sure that you'll all appreciate it if I shut up at
>>>> this point, so that's that. If there's a change it'll be
>>>> posted, otherwise I'll present some information as best I
>>>> can regardless.
>>>>
>>>> Jonathan.
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --------------- Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the
>>>> Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and
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I would place my vote for 44.1 kHz if, for no other reason, that the  
Red Book CD-Audio standard defines this as the nominal sampling rate  
for playback.

One could argue that using 48 kHz would coincide with the DVD medium,  
but as it is, Csound is configured to work also using 16 bits of  
dynamic range, with 8 bit or 24 bit as optional flags. The latter of  
course coinciding with the DVD/48 kHz camp.

In general it seems that for the moment using Red Book CD audio as a  
preferred delivery media is both cheap and practical for the general  
user of Csound. Obviously if the delivery media is some kind of hard  
disk or bandwidth using the internet, higher sampling rates and bit  
depths for dynamic range could be preferred, but if you consider the  
Red Book CD audio paradigm, you'd have to use some kind of dithering  
and sample rate conversion which could adversely affect your  
synthesized sound.

This is of course a discussion on the *defaults*, any user with minimal  
Csound experience should be able to grasp the idea of changing the  
sampling rate with the sr opcode or using the -c/-8 or -3 arguments...

Which brings me to a question: clearly libsndfile supports rendering 32  
bit float audio files but there isn't really a commandline flag that  
makes rendering a file of this type clear. I see only the

"-f      float sound samples"

in the output of csound --help. How might one render a 32 bit float  
.wav file for example? What flags would be needed?



-David

On Dec 15, 2006, at 9:40 AM, Steven Yi wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I found that it's not just USB, but also at least the built-in Intel
> AC97 sound chip in my laptop (and I would many other laptops).  More
> importantly than the latency though was the coloration of the sound,
> which I found to be a bigger issue.  Perhaps it was just a non-optimal
> upsampling algorithm used somewhere in the signal chain, but it was
> enough to bother me to switch to 48kHz.
>
> The problem with 48kHz though is that it doesn't play well with 44.1
> sampled wave files or files related to that.  It's also a reason why I
> don't use fluidsynth so much because soundfonts tend to be 44.1 and
> they get pictched up when used in a 48k sr project.
>
> For Mac's, it looks like 48k is fine, as-is 96khz:
>
> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Conceptual/ 
> HWTech_Audio/Articles/Audio_implementation.html
>
> So... doesn't seem to be a very clear winner in this to me.
>
> steven
>
>
> On 12/15/06, Andres Cabrera  wrote:
>> Hi Dr. B,
>>
>> 48k will only be faster if 44.1k is not directly supported by the  
>> audio
>> interface. This is the case with many USB soundcards, which have to  
>> do a
>> sample rate conversion in the driver (software). But this is  
>> particular
>> to Usb interfaces, all other cards will not benefit from this.
>> This makes me think that defaults should work, but not be optimized  
>> for
>> a particular setup, they would probably produce high latency and be
>> inefficient, but I think what's important is that the work without
>> stuttering in all systems (if that's possible... maybe it isn't?)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Andrés
>>
>> Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
>>> If 48k is faster, that's news to me and I would be happy to choose
>>> the faster rate as a default.
>>>
>>> Are there issues with 48k on the mac?
>>>
>>> -dB
>>> On Dec 14, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Steven Yi wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> I tend to use 48000 for realtime and 44100 for wav.  For me, I've
>>>> found that because 48000 is the native resolution on the audio  
>>>> devices
>>>> I use (the laptops builtin sound card and a USB sound card I use),
>>>> I've gotten better performance with that due to no translation.   
>>>> Also,
>>>> more importantly, I've found that the sound of the audio I was  
>>>> working
>>>> with when rendering 44.1 on a 48k device was colored so that it  
>>>> wasn't
>>>> representative of what I heard when rendering 44.1 to CD and playing
>>>> on a stereo.  Rendering at 48k works though for me.
>>>>
>>>> Just to add a little more fuel to the debate. :P
>>>>
>>>> steven
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/14/06, Victor Lazzarini  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I also prefer 44100.
>>>>>
>>>>> Victor
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Anthony Kozar  writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't mean to be difficult, but I would personally
>>>>>>> rather have sr = 44100 and ksmps = 16 than this.  (And I
>>>>>>> like the current defaults the most).
>>>>>>> The issue here for me is that the Macintosh world has a
>>>>>>> long history of built-in sound hardware with drivers
>>>>>>> that support ONLY 44100, 22050, and 11025 sampling
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> rates.  I don't know if this is true of machines within
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the last few years, but it was from the early '90s
>>>>>>> through probably '01 or so.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wasn't aware of that. Sorry. Myself, I only use linux,
>>>>>> and never use the default sr/ksmps, rarely the default -b
>>>>>> -B. I don't want to be difficult either. My concern over
>>>>>> this only arises because I wrote a couple of example
>>>>>> instruments for rt audio in/out, and when I started to
>>>>>> document them, realised that the defaults wouldn't work.
>>>>>> It seems necessary that there be defaults, but it also
>>>>>> seems necessary that the defaults work. For my personal
>>>>>> use of csound, none of this matters in the slightest, if
>>>>>> the defaults became problematic for me I could just change
>>>>>> them before compiling. It's often said that csound is
>>>>>> difficult to learn, but easy to use once you've grasped
>>>>>> the basics, and I think that that's valid. I'd just like
>>>>>> to make it easier for people to get over that first big
>>>>>> hurdle, so that they can get on with making great music.
>>>>>> I'm not a developer, so all of this is really out of my
>>>>>> hands anyway. The request to find a better compromise in
>>>>>> terms of the default settings is only that, a request,
>>>>>> regardless of how grumpy and uptight I may have sounded at
>>>>>> times. Sure that you'll all appreciate it if I shut up at
>>>>>> this point, so that's that. If there's a change it'll be
>>>>>> posted, otherwise I'll present some information as best I
>>>>>> can regardless.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jonathan.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> --------------- Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the
>>>>>> Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and
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Interesting Steven. I have to try my laptop (which has AC97) at 48000k.

Cheers,
Andrés

Steven Yi wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I found that it's not just USB, but also at least the built-in Intel
> AC97 sound chip in my laptop (and I would many other laptops).  More
> importantly than the latency though was the coloration of the sound,
> which I found to be a bigger issue.  Perhaps it was just a non-optimal
> upsampling algorithm used somewhere in the signal chain, but it was
> enough to bother me to switch to 48kHz.
>
> The problem with 48kHz though is that it doesn't play well with 44.1
> sampled wave files or files related to that.  It's also a reason why I
> don't use fluidsynth so much because soundfonts tend to be 44.1 and
> they get pictched up when used in a 48k sr project.
>
> For Mac's, it looks like 48k is fine, as-is 96khz:
>
> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Conceptual/HWTech_Audio/Articles/Audio_implementation.html
>
> So... doesn't seem to be a very clear winner in this to me.
>
> steven
>
>
> On 12/15/06, Andres Cabrera  wrote:
>   
>> Hi Dr. B,
>>
>> 48k will only be faster if 44.1k is not directly supported by the audio
>> interface. This is the case with many USB soundcards, which have to do a
>> sample rate conversion in the driver (software). But this is particular
>> to Usb interfaces, all other cards will not benefit from this.
>> This makes me think that defaults should work, but not be optimized for
>> a particular setup, they would probably produce high latency and be
>> inefficient, but I think what's important is that the work without
>> stuttering in all systems (if that's possible... maybe it isn't?)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Andrés
>>
>> Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
>>     
>>> If 48k is faster, that's news to me and I would be happy to choose
>>> the faster rate as a default.
>>>
>>> Are there issues with 48k on the mac?
>>>
>>> -dB
>>> On Dec 14, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Steven Yi wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> I tend to use 48000 for realtime and 44100 for wav.  For me, I've
>>>> found that because 48000 is the native resolution on the audio devices
>>>> I use (the laptops builtin sound card and a USB sound card I use),
>>>> I've gotten better performance with that due to no translation.  Also,
>>>> more importantly, I've found that the sound of the audio I was working
>>>> with when rendering 44.1 on a 48k device was colored so that it wasn't
>>>> representative of what I heard when rendering 44.1 to CD and playing
>>>> on a stereo.  Rendering at 48k works though for me.
>>>>
>>>> Just to add a little more fuel to the debate. :P
>>>>
>>>> steven
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/14/06, Victor Lazzarini  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> I also prefer 44100.
>>>>>
>>>>> Victor
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Anthony Kozar  writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> I don't mean to be difficult, but I would personally
>>>>>>> rather have sr = 44100 and ksmps = 16 than this.  (And I
>>>>>>> like the current defaults the most).
>>>>>>> The issue here for me is that the Macintosh world has a
>>>>>>> long history of built-in sound hardware with drivers
>>>>>>> that support ONLY 44100, 22050, and 11025 sampling
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> rates.  I don't know if this is true of machines within
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> the last few years, but it was from the early '90s
>>>>>>> through probably '01 or so.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> I wasn't aware of that. Sorry. Myself, I only use linux,
>>>>>> and never use the default sr/ksmps, rarely the default -b
>>>>>> -B. I don't want to be difficult either. My concern over
>>>>>> this only arises because I wrote a couple of example
>>>>>> instruments for rt audio in/out, and when I started to
>>>>>> document them, realised that the defaults wouldn't work.
>>>>>> It seems necessary that there be defaults, but it also
>>>>>> seems necessary that the defaults work. For my personal
>>>>>> use of csound, none of this matters in the slightest, if
>>>>>> the defaults became problematic for me I could just change
>>>>>> them before compiling. It's often said that csound is
>>>>>> difficult to learn, but easy to use once you've grasped
>>>>>> the basics, and I think that that's valid. I'd just like
>>>>>> to make it easier for people to get over that first big
>>>>>> hurdle, so that they can get on with making great music.
>>>>>> I'm not a developer, so all of this is really out of my
>>>>>> hands anyway. The request to find a better compromise in
>>>>>> terms of the default settings is only that, a request,
>>>>>> regardless of how grumpy and uptight I may have sounded at
>>>>>> times. Sure that you'll all appreciate it if I shut up at
>>>>>> this point, so that's that. If there's a change it'll be
>>>>>> posted, otherwise I'll present some information as best I
>>>>>> can regardless.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jonathan.
>>>>>>
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