You are being excessively defensive. As I tried to make clear in my complaint, I value your work very highly. You need to be able to tell the difference between a complaint about a specific action, and an attitude about you and your work. I want you to know, I am angry about what you did, but I value you and you contributions to Csound very highly. I hope this is clear. I am quite sure that Csound 5 is a year or so ahead of where it would be if you had not become involved.

>From my point of view, all you need to do is lay off messing with other people's contributions without discussing what you propose in advance. You may not understand another developer's reasons for doing things, which may then look stupid or unmotivated to you, but that is not necessarily the case. In any event, IT IS NOT YOUR DECISION.

I sincerely hope you do not quit contributing to Csound!

Best regards,
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Istvan Varga 
Sent: Oct 18, 2005 5:07 AM
To: csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] Tampering with other people's work

I changed csound.lisp in an attempt to update it for changes made to
some API functions, but it appears that I should not have tampered
with it.
Your new API functions are redundant, do not add new functionality,
are very limited (do not allow for additional arguments or even compiling
an orc/sco pair instead of a csd), and are not useful for anything other
than saving two lines of code in a host application. I think the API is
better kept clean and minimal without spamming it with redundant functions.
You also broke the binary layout of the CSOUND structure.
I do not really care, though, as I decided not to commit any more code
to the csound5 CVS module for one year or when Csound5 is released,
whichever is later. If people think that I became an old relic that
only holds back the work of others, now there is a chance to do everything
on your own, I will not interfere. Feel free to add anything, rewrite
Csound in C++, integrate wrappers, or whatever you want.
I will still update the manual, and answer questions not related to
development on the lists, but it is time to take another long break
so that I have time to other things.

Michael Gogins wrote:

> I note that Istvan Varga took it upon himself, without discussion or 
> consultation, to remove some functions that I recently contributed to 
> the Csound API.
> 
> He also edited the csound.lisp file so that it is no longer usable, 
> leaving me to fix up his mistakes.
> 
> I have, of course, immediately restored the code and I will restore it 
> again if I have to, though I am willing to discuss what I am doing, as I 
> have been discussing it all along.
> 
> It is not proper for one developer, no matter how talented they are or 
> how useful their work has proven -- and I freely acknowledge Istvan's 
> worth on both counts -- on an open source project such as Csound to 
> unilaterally remove or greatly modify the work of other developers.
> 
> It also is not proper to work on code without testing it.
> 
> The purpose of the work I am now doing, as I have discussed previously 
> here, is to expose the Csound API to LISP. I will extend this to expose 
> the API to Python, Java, and possibly Lua as well. This code may be 
> built into the Csound shared library, or it may be built as a separate 
> shared library, as we decide.
> 
> As part of this work, I have found that calling functions of the form 
> (int, char**) for example in csoundCompile(int argc, char** argv) is not 
> always the most convenient from the standpoint of the user of the API 
> and not always the easiest to call from a foreign function. Therefore, I 
> added
> 
> int csoundCompileCsd(CSOUND* csound, char *filename)
> int csoundPerformCsd(CSOUND * csound, char *filename)
> 
> With these changes the Csound API is now easily usable directly from 
> CLISP, and this binding should work on all CLISP-supported platforms 
> including Linux, WIndows, and the Macintosh. Once this is working, I 
> plan to change it from CLISP FFI to CFFI or UFFI, which should be usable 
> with other implementations of LISP as well.
> 
> I also have contributed a set of functions to enable users of the API to 
> programmatically build up a CSD file in memory, and especially, to 
> append 'i' events to the Csound score a line at a time, either as 
> strings, or as floating-point pfields.
> 
> The purpose of these functions is so that the composer can 'embed' the 
> Csound instruments and command-line options directly in the LISP, 
> Python, or whatever file that constitutes a pieces. In my experience, 
> this makes it harder to lose pieces of what one is working on, and 
> speeds up the working process.


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Michael Gogins wrote:

 > I am quite sure that Csound 5 is a year or so ahead of where it
 > would be if you had not become involved.

I think I should have started my own branch of Csound back then.
After all, there were only a few contributions to the library and
API this year that are not mine, so I could have been able to achieve
the same results alone. Unfortunately I made the wrong decision.

> From my point of view, all you need to do is lay off messing with
 > other people's contributions without discussing what you propose
 > in advance.

You already got that. I will no longer mess with anything at all.

> I sincerely hope you do not quit contributing to Csound!

I already did quit as explained in the previous messages.


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So do I,
why quit now ? , csound's future seems brighter than ever.
Oeyvind




> From: Michael Gogins [gogins@pipeline.com]
> 
> I sincerely hope you do not quit contributing to Csound!
> 
> Best regards,
> Mike

Oeyvind Brandtsegg wrote:

>So do I,
>why quit now ? , csound's future seems brighter than ever.
>Oeyvind
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>>From: Michael Gogins [gogins@pipeline.com]
>>
>>I sincerely hope you do not quit contributing to Csound!
>>
>>Best regards,
>>Mike
>>    
>>
just when i was seriously getting excited abount an open source 
alternative to commercial software, reaktor live kontakt.

istvan, you have immense talent and drive.  plaese stay with it, i envy 
your abilities.  you are basically driving the project, so you are on 
your own in a sense...




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Ken wrote:

> just when i was seriously getting excited abount an open source 
> alternative to commercial software, reaktor live kontakt.
> 
> istvan, you have immense talent and drive.  plaese stay with it, i envy 
> your abilities.  you are basically driving the project, so you are on 
> your own in a sense...

I may continue working on Csound 5, just not the canonical CVS sources,
but rather by creating a new project on SourceForge from the last clean
version, so that I can change it as I like without running into angry
complaints from some other people.


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Having dropped out of active Csound design some years ago now precisely because 
I was also fed up with angry complaints from "some people", may I say I fully 
understand how you feel. I have always understood that you wanted full editorial 
control of Csound (which is of course incompatible with a collaborative approach 
generally, which is what we have enjoyed for so long), so I wonder whether 
SourceForge is a suitable environment, as this is still nominally predicated on 
facilitating collaboration.

The strategic issue your plans raise is that with a modular structure based on 
plugins, and given that you clearly want free scope to modify the host-plugin 
interface, the likelihood of ending up with two mutually incompatible Csound 
plugin APIs seems very strong. I suspect many plugin developers will not want to 
deal with supporting two incompatible APIs to ostensibly the same product, so to 
ensure sole juristiction over the code, and also avoid this problem, you may 
find it expedient to return to the 4.x monolithic model and abandon the API 
altogether. Or you will have to somehow support both APIs and have some means 
for disambiguating the two. What users will make of all that of course remains 
to be seen. So I think you have a tough job on your hands!


Richard Dobson


Istvan Varga wrote:
> Ken wrote:
> 
>> just when i was seriously getting excited abount an open source 
>> alternative to commercial software, reaktor live kontakt.
>>
>> istvan, you have immense talent and drive.  plaese stay with it, i 
>> envy your abilities.  you are basically driving the project, so you 
>> are on your own in a sense...
> 
> 
> I may continue working on Csound 5, just not the canonical CVS sources,
> but rather by creating a new project on SourceForge from the last clean
> version, so that I can change it as I like without running into angry
> complaints from some other people.
> 



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On Oct 19, 2005, at 12:13 PM, Richard Dobson wrote:

> so I wonder whether SourceForge is a suitable environment, as this is 
> still nominally predicated on facilitating collaboration.

Of course, any and all development efforts related to Csound are always 
welcomed and encouraged at cSounds.com.



-David



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dakbari@csounds.comI, for one, will only bother developing plugins for the 'canonical' csound 
5, whatever
it is and whoever is heading the developer team.

At 17:13 19/10/2005, you wrote:
>The strategic issue your plans raise is that with a modular structure 
>based on plugins, and given that you clearly want free scope to modify the 
>host-plugin interface, the likelihood of ending up with two mutually 
>incompatible Csound plugin APIs seems very strong. I suspect many plugin 
>developers will not want to deal with supporting two incompatible APIs to 
>ostensibly the same product,

Victor Lazzarini
Music Technology Laboratory
Music Department
National University of Ireland, Maynooth 



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dakbari@csounds.comOn Oct 19, 2005, at 12:37 PM, Victor Lazzarini wrote:

> I, for one, will only bother developing plugins for the 'canonical' 
> csound 5, whatever
> it is and whoever is heading the developer team.

I didn't mean to offend anyone by endorsing a split from the canonical 
code base. I just mean that I don't think we as a community should turn 
our back to individuals who wish to express their own realization of 
Csound. Take MacCsound, for example. I think it makes Csound accessible 
to a wider base of consumers than it would otherwise be.

Of course it's always better when you have things like csoundapi~ or a 
version of Cecilia with a Csound4.23f13.gbs0 build that syncs with the 
canonical CVS module and things are cohesive.

Ultimately though, I believe there is the need to reserve a right to 
unilaterally alter the code base without prior consent; I believe that 
right should belong solely to John ffitch.

Apologies if these comments are out of line.


-David



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dakbari@csounds.comCertainly there is. My comment was on Richard Dobson's remarks, not on
your highly important endeavours to support all flavours of Csound.

Victor
At 23:43 19/10/2005, you wrote:
>Ultimately though, I believe there is the need to reserve a right to 
>unilaterally alter the code base without prior consent; I believe that 
>right should belong solely to John ffitch.

Victor Lazzarini
Music Technology Laboratory
Music Department
National University of Ireland, Maynooth 



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On Oct 20, 2005, at 4:05 AM, Victor Lazzarini wrote:

> dakbari@csounds.comCertainly there is. My comment was on Richard 
> Dobson's remarks, not on
> your highly important endeavours to support all flavours of Csound.
>
> Victor

My mistake!

I got confused because for some reason my email address is getting 
prepended to these emails!



-David



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>>>>> "David" == David Akbari  writes:


 David> I got confused because for some reason my email address is getting 
 David> prepended to these emails!

It is my day for apologising; you posted a message to csound-devel
from the dakbari@csound.com address and I had to deal with it.  I then
attempted to add the csounds.com address to the mailing list as
no-mail so you could post from either address, but somehow I managed
to change the wrong thing -- hence you address appearing.

I realised the state this morning and eventually found the problem
and fixed it.  Was intending sending an apology but got caught up in
looping structures in stead.

Apologies to David especially, and to all I confused (including me)

==John ffitch


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On Oct 20, 2005, at 12:06 PM, jpff@cs.bath.ac.uk wrote:
> Was intending sending an apology but got caught up in
> looping structures in stead.

It's very nice you're doing that for Erik. It's definitely something 
all of us benefit from!


-David



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