Hi all,
i sat down and took a moment to reflect on how to get a more transparent manual index; what is shown to the user when looking at the Csound Manual.
So, continuing the path of the present beta Csound7 manual https://csound.com/manual/, i came up with re-distributing of some chapters and simplifying the start screen . The tree of the manual has a max depth of 3.

I can not attach anything in this list, so i hope the copy-paste of my .odt is without error.

Feedback appreciated.

==============================


Introduction
		What’s new
		Historical
				Preface
				Manual
						Nomenclature
		Copyright/ Links		
Csound System
		How Csound Works
		Configuring
		Real-Time Audio
		The ‘csound’ Command
		The ‘csd’ File Format
		Csound Options (flags)
				Alphabetically
				By Category
		Guard Point in Tables
		Environment Variables
		Order of Precedence
		UDP Server
		Syntax of the Orchestra
				Header Statements and Global Space
				Instruments
				Data Types and Variables
				Macros
				User Defined Opcodes (UDO)
				Traditional and Functional Code
		Syntax of the Score
				Parameter Fileds
				Durations in Instrument Events
				Amplitude Values
				Preprocessing
				List of Statements
				Macros
				Included Files
				Expressions
				Scripts
				Csbeats
Opcodes Overview
		Signal Generators
		Signal Input/Output
		Signal Modifiers
		Instrument Control
		Functional Table Control
		Mathematical Operations
		Pitch Converters
		Real-Time MIDI 
		Spectral Processing
		Strings
		Vectorial Opcodes
		Zak Patch System
		OSC, Network and non-MIDI deveices
		Signal Flow Graph Opcodes
		Mixer Opcodes
		Miscellaneous Opcodes
GEN Routine Overview
Utility Programs
		About
		Analysis File Generation
		File Queries
		File Conversion
		Other Csound Utilities
Opcodes Index
Opcodes Quick Reference
GEN Routine Index
Appendices
		List of Examples
		Pitch Conversion
		Sound Intensity Values
		Formant Values
		Modal Frequency Ratios
		Window Functions

hi menno -

i am a bit puzzled how this does or does not refer to what we have 
currently in https://csound.com/manual/

what i like in your overview is that the main sections are more clear.
i am wondering whether we can also put Opcodes Index, Opcodes Quick 
Reference and GEN Routine Index in another big section called "Index and 
Quick Reference".  then it would be:

Introduction
Csound System
Opcode Overview
GEN Routine Overview
Utility Programs
Index and Quick Reference
Appendix

ciao -
	joachim


On 16/04/2025 11:01, Menno Knevel wrote:
> Hi all,
> i sat down and took a moment to reflect on how to get a more transparent manual index; what is shown to the user when looking at the Csound Manual.
> So, continuing the path of the present beta Csound7 manual https://csound.com/manual/, i came up with re-distributing of some chapters and simplifying the start screen . The tree of the manual has a max depth of 3.
> 
> I can not attach anything in this list, so i hope the copy-paste of my .odt is without error.
> 
> Feedback appreciated.
> 
> ==============================
> 
> 
> Introduction
> 		What’s new
> 		Historical
> 				Preface
> 				Manual
> 						Nomenclature
> 		Copyright/ Links		
> Csound System
> 		How Csound Works
> 		Configuring
> 		Real-Time Audio
> 		The ‘csound’ Command
> 		The ‘csd’ File Format
> 		Csound Options (flags)
> 				Alphabetically
> 				By Category
> 		Guard Point in Tables
> 		Environment Variables
> 		Order of Precedence
> 		UDP Server
> 		Syntax of the Orchestra
> 				Header Statements and Global Space
> 				Instruments
> 				Data Types and Variables
> 				Macros
> 				User Defined Opcodes (UDO)
> 				Traditional and Functional Code
> 		Syntax of the Score
> 				Parameter Fileds
> 				Durations in Instrument Events
> 				Amplitude Values
> 				Preprocessing
> 				List of Statements
> 				Macros
> 				Included Files
> 				Expressions
> 				Scripts
> 				Csbeats
> Opcodes Overview
> 		Signal Generators
> 		Signal Input/Output
> 		Signal Modifiers
> 		Instrument Control
> 		Functional Table Control
> 		Mathematical Operations
> 		Pitch Converters
> 		Real-Time MIDI
> 		Spectral Processing
> 		Strings
> 		Vectorial Opcodes
> 		Zak Patch System
> 		OSC, Network and non-MIDI deveices
> 		Signal Flow Graph Opcodes
> 		Mixer Opcodes
> 		Miscellaneous Opcodes
> GEN Routine Overview
> Utility Programs
> 		About
> 		Analysis File Generation
> 		File Queries
> 		File Conversion
> 		Other Csound Utilities
> Opcodes Index
> Opcodes Quick Reference
> GEN Routine Index
> Appendices
> 		List of Examples
> 		Pitch Conversion
> 		Sound Intensity Values
> 		Formant Values
> 		Modal Frequency Ratios
> 		Window Functions

thanks menno.
then i put my question in another way:
is your outline based on what we have now as develop manual in 
csound.com/manual, or do you go back to the old manual as base?

i was not sure about it; this was what i meant by "puzzled".

	joachim

On 17/04/2025 09:42, tjingboem wrote:
> Hi Joachim,
> 
> wonderful!
> This means the Main Chapter counter has gone down from *13* to*7*. 
> Without losing any information and a better organization of this 
> information.
> 
> (I am puzzled why you are puzzled....which puzzle do you mean?)
> 
> Menno
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2025 at 11:08 PM joachim heintz  > wrote:
> 
>     hi menno -
> 
>     i am a bit puzzled how this does or does not refer to what we have
>     currently in https://csound.com/manual/ 
> 
>     what i like in your overview is that the main sections are more clear.
>     i am wondering whether we can also put Opcodes Index, Opcodes Quick
>     Reference and GEN Routine Index in another big section called "Index
>     and
>     Quick Reference".  then it would be:
> 
>     Introduction
>     Csound System
>     Opcode Overview
>     GEN Routine Overview
>     Utility Programs
>     Index and Quick Reference
>     Appendix
> 
>     ciao -
>              joachim
> 
> 
>     On 16/04/2025 11:01, Menno Knevel wrote:
>      > Hi all,
>      > i sat down and took a moment to reflect on how to get a more
>     transparent manual index; what is shown to the user when looking at
>     the Csound Manual.
>      > So, continuing the path of the present beta Csound7 manual
>     https://csound.com/manual/ , i came up
>     with re-distributing of some chapters and simplifying the start
>     screen . The tree of the manual has a max depth of 3.
>      >
>      > I can not attach anything in this list, so i hope the copy-paste
>     of my .odt is without error.
>      >
>      > Feedback appreciated.
>      >
>      > ==============================
>      >
>      >
>      > Introduction
>      >               What’s new
>      >               Historical
>      >                               Preface
>      >                               Manual
>      >                                               Nomenclature
>      >               Copyright/ Links
>      > Csound System
>      >               How Csound Works
>      >               Configuring
>      >               Real-Time Audio
>      >               The ‘csound’ Command
>      >               The ‘csd’ File Format
>      >               Csound Options (flags)
>      >                               Alphabetically
>      >                               By Category
>      >               Guard Point in Tables
>      >               Environment Variables
>      >               Order of Precedence
>      >               UDP Server
>      >               Syntax of the Orchestra
>      >                               Header Statements and Global Space
>      >                               Instruments
>      >                               Data Types and Variables
>      >                               Macros
>      >                               User Defined Opcodes (UDO)
>      >                               Traditional and Functional Code
>      >               Syntax of the Score
>      >                               Parameter Fileds
>      >                               Durations in Instrument Events
>      >                               Amplitude Values
>      >                               Preprocessing
>      >                               List of Statements
>      >                               Macros
>      >                               Included Files
>      >                               Expressions
>      >                               Scripts
>      >                               Csbeats
>      > Opcodes Overview
>      >               Signal Generators
>      >               Signal Input/Output
>      >               Signal Modifiers
>      >               Instrument Control
>      >               Functional Table Control
>      >               Mathematical Operations
>      >               Pitch Converters
>      >               Real-Time MIDI
>      >               Spectral Processing
>      >               Strings
>      >               Vectorial Opcodes
>      >               Zak Patch System
>      >               OSC, Network and non-MIDI deveices
>      >               Signal Flow Graph Opcodes
>      >               Mixer Opcodes
>      >               Miscellaneous Opcodes
>      > GEN Routine Overview
>      > Utility Programs
>      >               About
>      >               Analysis File Generation
>      >               File Queries
>      >               File Conversion
>      >               Other Csound Utilities
>      > Opcodes Index
>      > Opcodes Quick Reference
>      > GEN Routine Index
>      > Appendices
>      >               List of Examples
>      >               Pitch Conversion
>      >               Sound Intensity Values
>      >               Formant Values
>      >               Modal Frequency Ratios
>      >               Window Functions
> 

ok good.  let's continue on this path.
and then we should check whether nothing was lost from the old manual 
(there was 
https://github.com/csound/manual/blob/csound7/overview/server.xml which 
was not transferred i think).
	j

On 17/04/2025 21:12, tjingboem wrote:
> ah i see
> no i think the old manual has done its service and i thank it very much 
> for that.
> The manual for Csound7 is indeed https://csound.com/manual/  csound.com/manual/> but i am looking to improve and continue on that path.
> 
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2025 at 8:58 PM joachim heintz  > wrote:
> 
>     thanks menno.
>     then i put my question in another way:
>     is your outline based on what we have now as develop manual in
>     csound.com/manual , or do you go back to
>     the old manual as base?
> 
>     i was not sure about it; this was what i meant by "puzzled".
> 
>              joachim
> 
>     On 17/04/2025 09:42, tjingboem wrote:
>      > Hi Joachim,
>      >
>      > wonderful!
>      > This means the Main Chapter counter has gone down from *13* to*7*.
>      > Without losing any information and a better organization of this
>      > information.
>      >
>      > (I am puzzled why you are puzzled....which puzzle do you mean?)
>      >
>      > Menno
>      >
>      >
>      > On Wed, Apr 16, 2025 at 11:08 PM joachim heintz
>     
>      > >> wrote:
>      >
>      >     hi menno -
>      >
>      >     i am a bit puzzled how this does or does not refer to what we
>     have
>      >     currently in https://csound.com/manual/      manual/> >
>      >
>      >     what i like in your overview is that the main sections are
>     more clear.
>      >     i am wondering whether we can also put Opcodes Index, Opcodes
>     Quick
>      >     Reference and GEN Routine Index in another big section called
>     "Index
>      >     and
>      >     Quick Reference".  then it would be:
>      >
>      >     Introduction
>      >     Csound System
>      >     Opcode Overview
>      >     GEN Routine Overview
>      >     Utility Programs
>      >     Index and Quick Reference
>      >     Appendix
>      >
>      >     ciao -
>      >              joachim
>      >
>      >
>      >     On 16/04/2025 11:01, Menno Knevel wrote:
>      >      > Hi all,
>      >      > i sat down and took a moment to reflect on how to get a more
>      >     transparent manual index; what is shown to the user when
>     looking at
>      >     the Csound Manual.
>      >      > So, continuing the path of the present beta Csound7 manual
>      > https://csound.com/manual/       csound.com/manual/ >, i came up
>      >     with re-distributing of some chapters and simplifying the start
>      >     screen . The tree of the manual has a max depth of 3.
>      >      >
>      >      > I can not attach anything in this list, so i hope the
>     copy-paste
>      >     of my .odt is without error.
>      >      >
>      >      > Feedback appreciated.
>      >      >
>      >      > ==============================
>      >      >
>      >      >
>      >      > Introduction
>      >      >               What’s new
>      >      >               Historical
>      >      >                               Preface
>      >      >                               Manual
>      >      >                                               Nomenclature
>      >      >               Copyright/ Links
>      >      > Csound System
>      >      >               How Csound Works
>      >      >               Configuring
>      >      >               Real-Time Audio
>      >      >               The ‘csound’ Command
>      >      >               The ‘csd’ File Format
>      >      >               Csound Options (flags)
>      >      >                               Alphabetically
>      >      >                               By Category
>      >      >               Guard Point in Tables
>      >      >               Environment Variables
>      >      >               Order of Precedence
>      >      >               UDP Server
>      >      >               Syntax of the Orchestra
>      >      >                               Header Statements and Global
>     Space
>      >      >                               Instruments
>      >      >                               Data Types and Variables
>      >      >                               Macros
>      >      >                               User Defined Opcodes (UDO)
>      >      >                               Traditional and Functional Code
>      >      >               Syntax of the Score
>      >      >                               Parameter Fileds
>      >      >                               Durations in Instrument Events
>      >      >                               Amplitude Values
>      >      >                               Preprocessing
>      >      >                               List of Statements
>      >      >                               Macros
>      >      >                               Included Files
>      >      >                               Expressions
>      >      >                               Scripts
>      >      >                               Csbeats
>      >      > Opcodes Overview
>      >      >               Signal Generators
>      >      >               Signal Input/Output
>      >      >               Signal Modifiers
>      >      >               Instrument Control
>      >      >               Functional Table Control
>      >      >               Mathematical Operations
>      >      >               Pitch Converters
>      >      >               Real-Time MIDI
>      >      >               Spectral Processing
>      >      >               Strings
>      >      >               Vectorial Opcodes
>      >      >               Zak Patch System
>      >      >               OSC, Network and non-MIDI deveices
>      >      >               Signal Flow Graph Opcodes
>      >      >               Mixer Opcodes
>      >      >               Miscellaneous Opcodes
>      >      > GEN Routine Overview
>      >      > Utility Programs
>      >      >               About
>      >      >               Analysis File Generation
>      >      >               File Queries
>      >      >               File Conversion
>      >      >               Other Csound Utilities
>      >      > Opcodes Index
>      >      > Opcodes Quick Reference
>      >      > GEN Routine Index
>      >      > Appendices
>      >      >               List of Examples
>      >      >               Pitch Conversion
>      >      >               Sound Intensity Values
>      >      >               Formant Values
>      >      >               Modal Frequency Ratios
>      >      >               Window Functions
>      >
> 

It’s great work from all of you. Thanks a lot.
========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Maynooth University
Ireland

> On 17 Apr 2025, at 20:12, tjingboem  wrote:
> 
> ah i see
> no i think the old manual has done its service and i thank it very much for that.
> The manual for Csound7 is indeed https://csound.com/manual/ but i am looking to improve and continue on that path.
> 
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2025 at 8:58 PM joachim heintz  wrote:
> thanks menno.
> then i put my question in another way:
> is your outline based on what we have now as develop manual in 
> csound.com/manual, or do you go back to the old manual as base?
> 
> i was not sure about it; this was what i meant by "puzzled".
> 
>         joachim
> 
> On 17/04/2025 09:42, tjingboem wrote:
> > Hi Joachim,
> > 
> > wonderful!
> > This means the Main Chapter counter has gone down from *13* to*7*. 
> > Without losing any information and a better organization of this 
> > information.
> > 
> > (I am puzzled why you are puzzled....which puzzle do you mean?)
> > 
> > Menno
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, Apr 16, 2025 at 11:08 PM joachim heintz  > > wrote:
> > 
> >     hi menno -
> > 
> >     i am a bit puzzled how this does or does not refer to what we have
> >     currently in https://csound.com/manual/ 
> > 
> >     what i like in your overview is that the main sections are more clear.
> >     i am wondering whether we can also put Opcodes Index, Opcodes Quick
> >     Reference and GEN Routine Index in another big section called "Index
> >     and
> >     Quick Reference".  then it would be:
> > 
> >     Introduction
> >     Csound System
> >     Opcode Overview
> >     GEN Routine Overview
> >     Utility Programs
> >     Index and Quick Reference
> >     Appendix
> > 
> >     ciao -
> >              joachim
> > 
> > 
> >     On 16/04/2025 11:01, Menno Knevel wrote:
> >      > Hi all,
> >      > i sat down and took a moment to reflect on how to get a more
> >     transparent manual index; what is shown to the user when looking at
> >     the Csound Manual.
> >      > So, continuing the path of the present beta Csound7 manual
> >     https://csound.com/manual/ , i came up
> >     with re-distributing of some chapters and simplifying the start
> >     screen . The tree of the manual has a max depth of 3.
> >      >
> >      > I can not attach anything in this list, so i hope the copy-paste
> >     of my .odt is without error.
> >      >
> >      > Feedback appreciated.
> >      >
> >      > ==============================
> >      >
> >      >
> >      > Introduction
> >      >               What’s new
> >      >               Historical
> >      >                               Preface
> >      >                               Manual
> >      >                                               Nomenclature
> >      >               Copyright/ Links
> >      > Csound System
> >      >               How Csound Works
> >      >               Configuring
> >      >               Real-Time Audio
> >      >               The ‘csound’ Command
> >      >               The ‘csd’ File Format
> >      >               Csound Options (flags)
> >      >                               Alphabetically
> >      >                               By Category
> >      >               Guard Point in Tables
> >      >               Environment Variables
> >      >               Order of Precedence
> >      >               UDP Server
> >      >               Syntax of the Orchestra
> >      >                               Header Statements and Global Space
> >      >                               Instruments
> >      >                               Data Types and Variables
> >      >                               Macros
> >      >                               User Defined Opcodes (UDO)
> >      >                               Traditional and Functional Code
> >      >               Syntax of the Score
> >      >                               Parameter Fileds
> >      >                               Durations in Instrument Events
> >      >                               Amplitude Values
> >      >                               Preprocessing
> >      >                               List of Statements
> >      >                               Macros
> >      >                               Included Files
> >      >                               Expressions
> >      >                               Scripts
> >      >                               Csbeats
> >      > Opcodes Overview
> >      >               Signal Generators
> >      >               Signal Input/Output
> >      >               Signal Modifiers
> >      >               Instrument Control
> >      >               Functional Table Control
> >      >               Mathematical Operations
> >      >               Pitch Converters
> >      >               Real-Time MIDI
> >      >               Spectral Processing
> >      >               Strings
> >      >               Vectorial Opcodes
> >      >               Zak Patch System
> >      >               OSC, Network and non-MIDI deveices
> >      >               Signal Flow Graph Opcodes
> >      >               Mixer Opcodes
> >      >               Miscellaneous Opcodes
> >      > GEN Routine Overview
> >      > Utility Programs
> >      >               About
> >      >               Analysis File Generation
> >      >               File Queries
> >      >               File Conversion
> >      >               Other Csound Utilities
> >      > Opcodes Index
> >      > Opcodes Quick Reference
> >      > GEN Routine Index
> >      > Appendices
> >      >               List of Examples
> >      >               Pitch Conversion
> >      >               Sound Intensity Values
> >      >               Formant Values
> >      >               Modal Frequency Ratios
> >      >               Window Functions
> >

hi menno, and all -

i am back to this suggestion, and there is one point i am missing.

we had in the csound6 manual a prominent section "Reference" (it was the 
third section after "Overview" and "Opcodes Overview").

actually, for daily usage i mostly looked at this Reference.  it was 
good that it was not only the alphabetic opcode index, but showed the 
short description, too.  for instance:

"sandpaper — Semi-physical model of a sandpaper sound."

@françois: is it possible to have this kind of overview?  so
- alphabetically as in https://csound.com/manual/opcodesIndex/
- but one line per opcode and
- with the short description

and i think this Reference section needs a prominent place in the 
manual, so i would suggest this outline:

Introduction (detailed as in menno's list)
Csound System (as in menno's list)
Overview
- Opcodes (detailed as in menno's list)
- GEN Routines
- Utilities
Reference
- Opcodes
- Score Statements
- GEN Routines
- Utilities
- Deprecated Opcodes
- Deprecated GEN Routines
Appendices
- Opcodes Quick Reference
- and then as in menno's list

thoughts?
	joachim


On 16/04/2025 11:01, Menno Knevel wrote:
> Hi all,
> i sat down and took a moment to reflect on how to get a more transparent manual index; what is shown to the user when looking at the Csound Manual.
> So, continuing the path of the present beta Csound7 manual https://csound.com/manual/, i came up with re-distributing of some chapters and simplifying the start screen . The tree of the manual has a max depth of 3.
> 
> I can not attach anything in this list, so i hope the copy-paste of my .odt is without error.
> 
> Feedback appreciated.
> 
> ==============================
> 
> 
> Introduction
> 		What’s new
> 		Historical
> 				Preface
> 				Manual
> 						Nomenclature
> 		Copyright/ Links		
> Csound System
> 		How Csound Works
> 		Configuring
> 		Real-Time Audio
> 		The ‘csound’ Command
> 		The ‘csd’ File Format
> 		Csound Options (flags)
> 				Alphabetically
> 				By Category
> 		Guard Point in Tables
> 		Environment Variables
> 		Order of Precedence
> 		UDP Server
> 		Syntax of the Orchestra
> 				Header Statements and Global Space
> 				Instruments
> 				Data Types and Variables
> 				Macros
> 				User Defined Opcodes (UDO)
> 				Traditional and Functional Code
> 		Syntax of the Score
> 				Parameter Fileds
> 				Durations in Instrument Events
> 				Amplitude Values
> 				Preprocessing
> 				List of Statements
> 				Macros
> 				Included Files
> 				Expressions
> 				Scripts
> 				Csbeats
> Opcodes Overview
> 		Signal Generators
> 		Signal Input/Output
> 		Signal Modifiers
> 		Instrument Control
> 		Functional Table Control
> 		Mathematical Operations
> 		Pitch Converters
> 		Real-Time MIDI
> 		Spectral Processing
> 		Strings
> 		Vectorial Opcodes
> 		Zak Patch System
> 		OSC, Network and non-MIDI deveices
> 		Signal Flow Graph Opcodes
> 		Mixer Opcodes
> 		Miscellaneous Opcodes
> GEN Routine Overview
> Utility Programs
> 		About
> 		Analysis File Generation
> 		File Queries
> 		File Conversion
> 		Other Csound Utilities
> Opcodes Index
> Opcodes Quick Reference
> GEN Routine Index
> Appendices
> 		List of Examples
> 		Pitch Conversion
> 		Sound Intensity Values
> 		Formant Values
> 		Modal Frequency Ratios
> 		Window Functions



yes we probably should add the functional syntax per opcode- ouch quite some work

i guess we should show both syntaxes?

Traditional: blah

Functional: blah

On Mon, Apr 21, 2025 at 4:09 PM Victor Lazzarini <000010b17ddd988e-dmarc-request@listserv.heanet.ie> wrote:

Should we convert all opcode syntax description lines to the Csound 7 syntax?

e.g

sig:a = oscili(amp:x, freq:x[, phase:i])

sig:k = oscili(amp:k, freq:k[, phase:i])

and have somewhere saying that x is a,k, or i

and k is k or i.

Prof. Victor Lazzarini

Maynooth University

Ireland

On 21 Apr 2025, at 14:09, tjingboem <magknevel@gmail.com> wrote:



my thoughts are: yes, i miss the list of opcode xxx - short description as well.

And i think your proposal is the best i have seen so far.

Also nice to see the Deprecated Opcodes & GEN Routines find their way back again in a non-intrusive manner :-P

Perhaps we could change 

Overview
- Opcodes

to

Overview
- Opcodes Categories

to make a bigger difference with 

Reference
- Opcodes

i still think the A, B C etc in Appendices before every chapter should go. Reason is that this makes sense in an analog book, but not in the digital world.

On Sun, Apr 20, 2025 at 7:42 PM joachim heintz <jh@joachimheintz.de> wrote:

hi menno, and all -

i am back to this suggestion, and there is one point i am missing.

we had in the csound6 manual a prominent section "Reference" (it was the
third section after "Overview" and "Opcodes Overview").

actually, for daily usage i mostly looked at this Reference.  it was
good that it was not only the alphabetic opcode index, but showed the
short description, too.  for instance:

"sandpaper — Semi-physical model of a sandpaper sound."

@françois: is it possible to have this kind of overview?  so
- alphabetically as in https://csound.com/manual/opcodesIndex/
- but one line per opcode and
- with the short description

and i think this Reference section needs a prominent place in the
manual, so i would suggest this outline:

Introduction (detailed as in menno's list)
Csound System (as in menno's list)
Overview
- Opcodes (detailed as in menno's list)
- GEN Routines
- Utilities
Reference
- Opcodes
- Score Statements
- GEN Routines
- Utilities
- Deprecated Opcodes
- Deprecated GEN Routines
Appendices
- Opcodes Quick Reference
- and then as in menno's list

thoughts?
        joachim


On 16/04/2025 11:01, Menno Knevel wrote:
> Hi all,
> i sat down and took a moment to reflect on how to get a more transparent manual index; what is shown to the user when looking at the Csound Manual.
> So, continuing the path of the present beta Csound7 manual https://csound.com/manual/, i came up with re-distributing of some chapters and simplifying the start screen . The tree of the manual has a max depth of 3.
>
> I can not attach anything in this list, so i hope the copy-paste of my .odt is without error.
>
> Feedback appreciated.
>
> ==============================
>
>
> Introduction
>               What’s new
>               Historical
>                               Preface
>                               Manual
>                                               Nomenclature
>               Copyright/ Links               
> Csound System
>               How Csound Works
>               Configuring
>               Real-Time Audio
>               The ‘csound’ Command
>               The ‘csd’ File Format
>               Csound Options (flags)
>                               Alphabetically
>                               By Category
>               Guard Point in Tables
>               Environment Variables
>               Order of Precedence
>               UDP Server
>               Syntax of the Orchestra
>                               Header Statements and Global Space
>                               Instruments
>                               Data Types and Variables
>                               Macros
>                               User Defined Opcodes (UDO)
>                               Traditional and Functional Code
>               Syntax of the Score
>                               Parameter Fileds
>                               Durations in Instrument Events
>                               Amplitude Values
>                               Preprocessing
>                               List of Statements
>                               Macros
>                               Included Files
>                               Expressions
>                               Scripts
>                               Csbeats
> Opcodes Overview
>               Signal Generators
>               Signal Input/Output
>               Signal Modifiers
>               Instrument Control
>               Functional Table Control
>               Mathematical Operations
>               Pitch Converters
>               Real-Time MIDI
>               Spectral Processing
>               Strings
>               Vectorial Opcodes
>               Zak Patch System
>               OSC, Network and non-MIDI deveices
>               Signal Flow Graph Opcodes
>               Mixer Opcodes
>               Miscellaneous Opcodes
> GEN Routine Overview
> Utility Programs
>               About
>               Analysis File Generation
>               File Queries
>               File Conversion
>               Other Csound Utilities
> Opcodes Index
> Opcodes Quick Reference
> GEN Routine Index
> Appendices
>               List of Examples
>               Pitch Conversion
>               Sound Intensity Values
>               Formant Values
>               Modal Frequency Ratios
>               Window Functions



i agree that 'classic' does cover the meaning better. 

François, can you please change https://csound.com/manual/orch/traditional-functional-code/ ?

What about renaming 'functional' to 'function-style'?

On Mon, Apr 21, 2025 at 5:50 PM vlz <viclazzarini@gmail.com> wrote:

We need to find good terms for this. I prefer *classic* to *traditional*. I think *functional* might be misleading as it may imply pure functions, and most opcodes have state so they are not. I use *function-like* but it's a mouthful.

The Csound 7 thing is also about variable names. We perhaps should support the use of explicit types whatever opcode syntax we use.

bestp

Prof. Victor Lazzarini

Maynooth University

Ireland

On 21 Apr 2025, at 15:46, tjingboem <magknevel@gmail.com> wrote:



yes we probably should add the functional syntax per opcode- ouch quite some work

i guess we should show both syntaxes?

Traditional: blah

Functional: blah

On Mon, Apr 21, 2025 at 4:09 PM Victor Lazzarini <000010b17ddd988e-dmarc-request@listserv.heanet.ie> wrote:

Should we convert all opcode syntax description lines to the Csound 7 syntax?

e.g

sig:a = oscili(amp:x, freq:x[, phase:i])

sig:k = oscili(amp:k, freq:k[, phase:i])

and have somewhere saying that x is a,k, or i

and k is k or i.

Prof. Victor Lazzarini

Maynooth University

Ireland

On 21 Apr 2025, at 14:09, tjingboem <magknevel@gmail.com> wrote:



my thoughts are: yes, i miss the list of opcode xxx - short description as well.

And i think your proposal is the best i have seen so far.

Also nice to see the Deprecated Opcodes & GEN Routines find their way back again in a non-intrusive manner :-P

Perhaps we could change 

Overview
- Opcodes

to

Overview
- Opcodes Categories

to make a bigger difference with 

Reference
- Opcodes

i still think the A, B C etc in Appendices before every chapter should go. Reason is that this makes sense in an analog book, but not in the digital world.

On Sun, Apr 20, 2025 at 7:42 PM joachim heintz <jh@joachimheintz.de> wrote:

hi menno, and all -

i am back to this suggestion, and there is one point i am missing.

we had in the csound6 manual a prominent section "Reference" (it was the
third section after "Overview" and "Opcodes Overview").

actually, for daily usage i mostly looked at this Reference.  it was
good that it was not only the alphabetic opcode index, but showed the
short description, too.  for instance:

"sandpaper — Semi-physical model of a sandpaper sound."

@françois: is it possible to have this kind of overview?  so
- alphabetically as in https://csound.com/manual/opcodesIndex/
- but one line per opcode and
- with the short description

and i think this Reference section needs a prominent place in the
manual, so i would suggest this outline:

Introduction (detailed as in menno's list)
Csound System (as in menno's list)
Overview
- Opcodes (detailed as in menno's list)
- GEN Routines
- Utilities
Reference
- Opcodes
- Score Statements
- GEN Routines
- Utilities
- Deprecated Opcodes
- Deprecated GEN Routines
Appendices
- Opcodes Quick Reference
- and then as in menno's list

thoughts?
        joachim


On 16/04/2025 11:01, Menno Knevel wrote:
> Hi all,
> i sat down and took a moment to reflect on how to get a more transparent manual index; what is shown to the user when looking at the Csound Manual.
> So, continuing the path of the present beta Csound7 manual https://csound.com/manual/, i came up with re-distributing of some chapters and simplifying the start screen . The tree of the manual has a max depth of 3.
>
> I can not attach anything in this list, so i hope the copy-paste of my .odt is without error.
>
> Feedback appreciated.
>
> ==============================
>
>
> Introduction
>               What’s new
>               Historical
>                               Preface
>                               Manual
>                                               Nomenclature
>               Copyright/ Links               
> Csound System
>               How Csound Works
>               Configuring
>               Real-Time Audio
>               The ‘csound’ Command
>               The ‘csd’ File Format
>               Csound Options (flags)
>                               Alphabetically
>                               By Category
>               Guard Point in Tables
>               Environment Variables
>               Order of Precedence
>               UDP Server
>               Syntax of the Orchestra
>                               Header Statements and Global Space
>                               Instruments
>                               Data Types and Variables
>                               Macros
>                               User Defined Opcodes (UDO)
>                               Traditional and Functional Code
>               Syntax of the Score
>                               Parameter Fileds
>                               Durations in Instrument Events
>                               Amplitude Values
>                               Preprocessing
>                               List of Statements
>                               Macros
>                               Included Files
>                               Expressions
>                               Scripts
>                               Csbeats
> Opcodes Overview
>               Signal Generators
>               Signal Input/Output
>               Signal Modifiers
>               Instrument Control
>               Functional Table Control
>               Mathematical Operations
>               Pitch Converters
>               Real-Time MIDI
>               Spectral Processing
>               Strings
>               Vectorial Opcodes
>               Zak Patch System
>               OSC, Network and non-MIDI deveices
>               Signal Flow Graph Opcodes
>               Mixer Opcodes
>               Miscellaneous Opcodes
> GEN Routine Overview
> Utility Programs
>               About
>               Analysis File Generation
>               File Queries
>               File Conversion
>               Other Csound Utilities
> Opcodes Index
> Opcodes Quick Reference
> GEN Routine Index
> Appendices
>               List of Examples
>               Pitch Conversion
>               Sound Intensity Values
>               Formant Values
>               Modal Frequency Ratios
>               Window Functions

thanks so much françois!!! --- the reference section now looks 
fantastic, and searching works flawlessly.

i also think that for the 7.0 release we cannot fullfill all wishes.  i 
started to read again everything in the introduction this morning, and 
there are still many things to correct and to adjust.  as well what you 
mention about the not yet documented opcodes.

once we have everything done, it should be possible to write a script 
which automatically adds the new syntax.

as to protecting the develop branch, i have two different opinions.  on 
one hand i like the idea, on the other and i am afraid that it makes the 
current work too slow.  for instance, you could now "just do" the change 
with the Reference section; it was fast and everyone can see it.  but 
perhaps you decide what you prefer.

	joachim

On 21/04/2025 18:07, Francois PINOT wrote:
> The Reference Section has been added. As Menno said, adding the 
> functional syntax should be done but it's a lot of work!
> So I propose to postpone this feature for future enhancements...
> 
> For now, I have to write the guidelines for writing an opcodes notice so 
> that people can add new opcodes info. These opcodes are not yet documented:
> 
> arg, chnclear_array, cingoto, cnkgoto, complex, conj, create, createinstr,
> ctlchn, declare, delete, earlysmps, floatsize, ftresize, ftresizei,
> getinstance, getp, imag, instrnum, instrstr, loscil3phs, loscilphs, lpform,
> midipgm, mp3bitrate, mp3nchnls, mp3sr, nlalp, nxtpow2, offsetsmps, 
> opcoderef,
> otafilter, pause, perf, pgmchn, pitchac, play, polar, pows, print_type,
> ptablew, pvsenvftw, pvsgendy, pvslock, readks, real, run, sc_lag, sc_lagud,
> sc_phasor, sc_trig, sequstate, setp, slicearray_i, splice, str, strecv,
> string2array, stsend, systime, table3kt, vdel_k.
> 
> One question: should we protect the develop branch of the manual like 
> the develop branch of the code, so that people can not directly commit 
> but instead send a PR which should be validated by a member of the 
> Documentation team?
> 
> Regards
> 
> François
> 
> Le lun. 21 avr. 2025 à 16:46, tjingboem  > a écrit :
> 
>     yes we probably should add the functional syntax per opcode- ouch
>     quite some work
> 
>     i guess we should show both syntaxes?
>     Traditional: blah
>     Functional: blah
> 
>     On Mon, Apr 21, 2025 at 4:09 PM Victor Lazzarini <000010b17ddd988e-
>     dmarc-request@listserv.heanet.ie      request@listserv.heanet.ie>> wrote:
> 
>         Should we convert all opcode syntax description lines to the
>         Csound 7 syntax?
> 
>         e.g
> 
>         sig:a = oscili(amp:x, freq:x[, phase:i])
>         sig:k = oscili(amp:k, freq:k[, phase:i])
> 
>         and have somewhere saying that x is a,k, or i
>         and k is k or i.
> 
>         Prof. Victor Lazzarini
>         Maynooth University
>         Ireland
> 
>>         On 21 Apr 2025, at 14:09, tjingboem >         > wrote:
>>
>>         
>>         my thoughts are: yes, i miss the list of opcode xxx - short
>>         description as well.
>>
>>         And i think your proposal is the best i have seen so far.
>>
>>         Also nice to see the Deprecated Opcodes & GEN Routines find
>>         their way back again in a non-intrusive manner :-P
>>
>>
>>         Perhaps we could change
>>         Overview
>>         - Opcodes
>>         to
>>         Overview
>>         - Opcodes Categories
>>
>>         to make a bigger difference with
>>         Reference
>>         - Opcodes
>>
>>
>>         i still think the A, B C etc in Appendices before every
>>         chapter should go. Reason is that this makes sense in an
>>         analog book, but not in the digital world.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         On Sun, Apr 20, 2025 at 7:42 PM joachim heintz
>>         > wrote:
>>
>>             hi menno, and all -
>>
>>             i am back to this suggestion, and there is one point i am
>>             missing.
>>
>>             we had in the csound6 manual a prominent section
>>             "Reference" (it was the
>>             third section after "Overview" and "Opcodes Overview").
>>
>>             actually, for daily usage i mostly looked at this
>>             Reference.  it was
>>             good that it was not only the alphabetic opcode index, but
>>             showed the
>>             short description, too.  for instance:
>>
>>             "sandpaper — Semi-physical model of a sandpaper sound."
>>
>>             @françois: is it possible to have this kind of overview?  so
>>             - alphabetically as in https://csound.com/manual/
>>             opcodesIndex/ 
>>             - but one line per opcode and
>>             - with the short description
>>
>>             and i think this Reference section needs a prominent place
>>             in the
>>             manual, so i would suggest this outline:
>>
>>             Introduction (detailed as in menno's list)
>>             Csound System (as in menno's list)
>>             Overview
>>             - Opcodes (detailed as in menno's list)
>>             - GEN Routines
>>             - Utilities
>>             Reference
>>             - Opcodes
>>             - Score Statements
>>             - GEN Routines
>>             - Utilities
>>             - Deprecated Opcodes
>>             - Deprecated GEN Routines
>>             Appendices
>>             - Opcodes Quick Reference
>>             - and then as in menno's list
>>
>>             thoughts?
>>                     joachim
>>
>>
>>             On 16/04/2025 11:01, Menno Knevel wrote:
>>             > Hi all,
>>             > i sat down and took a moment to reflect on how to get a
>>             more transparent manual index; what is shown to the user
>>             when looking at the Csound Manual.
>>             > So, continuing the path of the present beta Csound7
>>             manual https://csound.com/manual/ >             manual/>, i came up with re-distributing of some chapters
>>             and simplifying the start screen . The tree of the manual
>>             has a max depth of 3.
>>             >
>>             > I can not attach anything in this list, so i hope the
>>             copy-paste of my .odt is without error.
>>             >
>>             > Feedback appreciated.
>>             >
>>             > ==============================
>>             >
>>             >
>>             > Introduction
>>             >               What’s new
>>             >               Historical
>>             >                               Preface
>>             >                               Manual
>>             >                                               Nomenclature
>>             >               Copyright/ Links
>>             > Csound System
>>             >               How Csound Works
>>             >               Configuring
>>             >               Real-Time Audio
>>             >               The ‘csound’ Command
>>             >               The ‘csd’ File Format
>>             >               Csound Options (flags)
>>             >                               Alphabetically
>>             >                               By Category
>>             >               Guard Point in Tables
>>             >               Environment Variables
>>             >               Order of Precedence
>>             >               UDP Server
>>             >               Syntax of the Orchestra
>>             >                               Header Statements and
>>             Global Space
>>             >                               Instruments
>>             >                               Data Types and Variables
>>             >                               Macros
>>             >                               User Defined Opcodes (UDO)
>>             >                               Traditional and Functional
>>             Code
>>             >               Syntax of the Score
>>             >                               Parameter Fileds
>>             >                               Durations in Instrument Events
>>             >                               Amplitude Values
>>             >                               Preprocessing
>>             >                               List of Statements
>>             >                               Macros
>>             >                               Included Files
>>             >                               Expressions
>>             >                               Scripts
>>             >                               Csbeats
>>             > Opcodes Overview
>>             >               Signal Generators
>>             >               Signal Input/Output
>>             >               Signal Modifiers
>>             >               Instrument Control
>>             >               Functional Table Control
>>             >               Mathematical Operations
>>             >               Pitch Converters
>>             >               Real-Time MIDI
>>             >               Spectral Processing
>>             >               Strings
>>             >               Vectorial Opcodes
>>             >               Zak Patch System
>>             >               OSC, Network and non-MIDI deveices
>>             >               Signal Flow Graph Opcodes
>>             >               Mixer Opcodes
>>             >               Miscellaneous Opcodes
>>             > GEN Routine Overview
>>             > Utility Programs
>>             >               About
>>             >               Analysis File Generation
>>             >               File Queries
>>             >               File Conversion
>>             >               Other Csound Utilities
>>             > Opcodes Index
>>             > Opcodes Quick Reference
>>             > GEN Routine Index
>>             > Appendices
>>             >               List of Examples
>>             >               Pitch Conversion
>>             >               Sound Intensity Values
>>             >               Formant Values
>>             >               Modal Frequency Ratios
>>             >               Window Functions
>>