I'm thinking of doing some work on the lisp end of Csound.  Are there 
any pointers as to what has been done to bring me up to speed?  I'm no 
lisp guru, but I can make my way around, and I seem to get it and like 
the language.

Also, on a related note, what are others thoughts on Lisp vs. Python.  
Is Lisp dieing being replaced by Python?  Am I pursuing a dead end?

Thanks,
Ken


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Quoting Ken :

> I'm thinking of doing some work on the lisp end of Csound.  Are there 
> any pointers as to what has been done to bring me up to speed?  I'm no 
> lisp guru, but I can make my way around, and I seem to get it and like 
> the language.
> 
> Also, on a related note, what are others thoughts on Lisp vs. Python.  
> Is Lisp dieing being replaced by Python?  Am I pursuing a dead end?

I won't venture an opinion on whether Lisp is being replaced, but certainly
Python is getting adopted as an extension language by an awful lot of open
source utilities. At a glance, I would say it now outnumbers lisp by quite a
bit, but I could be wrong. For csound, I like it a lot because:

- it's built into vim ( obviously emacsers will say the opposite is also true )
- it's built into csound and csound can be easily put in python
- it's very easy to get python to play well with others, including PD, C/C++,
and the shell of an os
- it's great for text hacking, which is very useful for csound

I'm pretty jazzed that you can use elispe with vim for both python a C/C++ too
but I haven't really dug into it. 

If I could go back in time to tell myself five years ago what to learn sooner,
it would include python, vim, and regular expressions. Being able to write
python vim scripts that patch your csound instruments and scores if really
really handy. If you know all three well you can save yourself a whole pile of
csound headaches. ;)

Iain


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> I won't venture an opinion on whether Lisp is being replaced, but certainly
> Python is getting adopted as an extension language by an awful lot of open
> source utilities. At a glance, I would say it now outnumbers lisp by quite a
> bit, but I could be wrong. For csound, I like it a lot because:
>
> - it's built into vim ( obviously emacsers will say the opposite is also true )
> - it's built into csound and csound can be easily put in python
> - it's very easy to get python to play well with others, including PD, C/C++,
> and the shell of an os
> - it's great for text hacking, which is very useful for csound
>
> I'm pretty jazzed that you can use elispe with vim for both python a C/C++ too
> but I haven't really dug into it. 
>
> If I could go back in time to tell myself five years ago what to learn sooner,
> it would include python, vim, and regular expressions. Being able to write
> python vim scripts that patch your csound instruments and scores if really
> really handy. If you know all three well you can save yourself a whole pile of
> csound headaches. ;)
>
> Iain
>
>
>
>   

ya, i'm kinda seeing that too.  yet, i'm comfortable with emacs, so 
maybe thats why?  i also really like common music, so staying in lisp is 
a draw, as cm also has realtime algorithmic facilities, and midi 
recording, which i'm interested in pursuing, mainly realtime algorithmic 
composition, and recording.   anyways thanks for your input, and 
everyone else too!

ken
 

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Using CS for rendering music compositions is one thing and a good  
tool, such as Lisp, with which to think is certainly integral to the  
process. Leaving aside the object/process issues of the 'one-note- 
score' compositions, one of the things that makes me come back to a  
CS view of the world again and again is the fact that it is easy to  
separate the synthesis engine from the score-making.

I've been using python for years and to be able to access CS library  
on-the-fly is fantastic. For me, one of the advantages of using  
python is that there is a huge developer/user base out there on which  
to draw.
I'm currently doing sonification of large datasets and need lots of  
other tools - CS is at the end of a multi-link chain with each link  
being open to user control in RT. Most of the tools I'm using were  
made for other purposes.

Being able to integrate these other tools with CS means large-scale  
projects are not only possible but more stable; one does not need to  
rely on one source of tools for the whole job. Having, over the  
decades, invested large amounts of time writing, APL, Forth etc etc  
only to spend large amounts of time converting everything when they  
fell out of fashion, I appreciate the robustness of an interpretive  
language with a  large user-base.

David


On 27/09/2006, at 11:30 AM, Ken wrote:

>
>> I won't venture an opinion on whether Lisp is being replaced, but  
>> certainly
>> Python is getting adopted as an extension language by an awful lot  
>> of open
>> source utilities. At a glance, I would say it now outnumbers lisp  
>> by quite a
>> bit, but I could be wrong. For csound, I like it a lot because:
>>
>> - it's built into vim ( obviously emacsers will say the opposite  
>> is also true )
>> - it's built into csound and csound can be easily put in python
>> - it's very easy to get python to play well with others, including  
>> PD, C/C++,
>> and the shell of an os
>> - it's great for text hacking, which is very useful for csound
>>
>> I'm pretty jazzed that you can use elispe with vim for both python  
>> a C/C++ too
>> but I haven't really dug into it.
>>
>> If I could go back in time to tell myself five years ago what to  
>> learn sooner,
>> it would include python, vim, and regular expressions. Being able  
>> to write
>> python vim scripts that patch your csound instruments and scores  
>> if really
>> really handy. If you know all three well you can save yourself a  
>> whole pile of
>> csound headaches. ;)
>>
>> Iain
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> ya, i'm kinda seeing that too.  yet, i'm comfortable with emacs, so
> maybe thats why?  i also really like common music, so staying in  
> lisp is
> a draw, as cm also has realtime algorithmic facilities, and midi
> recording, which i'm interested in pursuing, mainly realtime  
> algorithmic
> composition, and recording.   anyways thanks for your input, and
> everyone else too!
>
> ken
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ---
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> cash
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Using CS for rendering music compositions is one thing and a good  
tool, such as Lisp, with which to think is certainly integral to the  
process. Leaving aside the object/process issues of the 'one-note- 
score' compositions, one of the things that makes me come back to a  
CS view of the world again and again is the fact that it is easy to  
separate the synthesis engine from the score-making.

I've been using python for years and to be able to access CS library  
on-the-fly is fantastic. For me, one of the advantages of using  
python is that there is a huge developer/user base out there on which  
to draw.
I'm currently doing sonification of large datasets and need lots of  
other tools - CS is at the end of a multi-link chain with each link  
being open to user control in RT. Most of the tools I'm using were  
made for other purposes.

Being able to integrate these other tools with CS means large-scale  
projects are not only possible but more stable; one does not need to  
rely on one source of tools for the whole job. Having, over the  
decades, invested large amounts of time writing, APL, Forth etc etc  
only to spend large amounts of time converting everything when they  
fell out of fashion, I appreciate the robustness of an interpretive  
language with a  large user-base.

David


On 27/09/2006, at 11:30 AM, Ken wrote:

>
>> I won't venture an opinion on whether Lisp is being replaced, but  
>> certainly
>> Python is getting adopted as an extension language by an awful lot  
>> of open
>> source utilities. At a glance, I would say it now outnumbers lisp  
>> by quite a
>> bit, but I could be wrong. For csound, I like it a lot because:
>>
>> - it's built into vim ( obviously emacsers will say the opposite  
>> is also true )
>> - it's built into csound and csound can be easily put in python
>> - it's very easy to get python to play well with others, including  
>> PD, C/C++,
>> and the shell of an os
>> - it's great for text hacking, which is very useful for csound
>>
>> I'm pretty jazzed that you can use elispe with vim for both python  
>> a C/C++ too
>> but I haven't really dug into it.
>>
>> If I could go back in time to tell myself five years ago what to  
>> learn sooner,
>> it would include python, vim, and regular expressions. Being able  
>> to write
>> python vim scripts that patch your csound instruments and scores  
>> if really
>> really handy. If you know all three well you can save yourself a  
>> whole pile of
>> csound headaches. ;)
>>
>> Iain
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> ya, i'm kinda seeing that too.  yet, i'm comfortable with emacs, so
> maybe thats why?  i also really like common music, so staying in  
> lisp is
> a draw, as cm also has realtime algorithmic facilities, and midi
> recording, which i'm interested in pursuing, mainly realtime  
> algorithmic
> composition, and recording.   anyways thanks for your input, and
> everyone else too!
>
> ken
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ---
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> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to  
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> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys -- and earn  
> cash
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> page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
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_____________________________
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_______________________________________
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Sonic Communications Research Group,
University of Canberra:	 www.canberra.edu.au





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This sounds excellent. Would like to hear more. Would you
consider writing an article for the Csound Journal that
Steven and Jim edit? That'd be really interesting.

Victor

At 23:07 27/09/2006, you wrote:
>Using CS for rendering music compositions is one thing and a good
>tool, such as Lisp, with which to think is certainly integral to the
>process. Leaving aside the object/process issues of the 'one-note-
>score' compositions, one of the things that makes me come back to a
>CS view of the world again and again is the fact that it is easy to
>separate the synthesis engine from the score-making.
>
>I've been using python for years and to be able to access CS library
>on-the-fly is fantastic. For me, one of the advantages of using
>python is that there is a huge developer/user base out there on which
>to draw.
>I'm currently doing sonification of large datasets and need lots of
>other tools - CS is at the end of a multi-link chain with each link
>being open to user control in RT. Most of the tools I'm using were
>made for other purposes.
>
>Being able to integrate these other tools with CS means large-scale
>projects are not only possible but more stable; one does not need to
>rely on one source of tools for the whole job. Having, over the
>decades, invested large amounts of time writing, APL, Forth etc etc
>only to spend large amounts of time converting everything when they
>fell out of fashion, I appreciate the robustness of an interpretive
>language with a  large user-base.
>
>David
>
>
>On 27/09/2006, at 11:30 AM, Ken wrote:
>
> >
> >> I won't venture an opinion on whether Lisp is being replaced, but
> >> certainly
> >> Python is getting adopted as an extension language by an awful lot
> >> of open
> >> source utilities. At a glance, I would say it now outnumbers lisp
> >> by quite a
> >> bit, but I could be wrong. For csound, I like it a lot because:
> >>
> >> - it's built into vim ( obviously emacsers will say the opposite
> >> is also true )
> >> - it's built into csound and csound can be easily put in python
> >> - it's very easy to get python to play well with others, including
> >> PD, C/C++,
> >> and the shell of an os
> >> - it's great for text hacking, which is very useful for csound
> >>
> >> I'm pretty jazzed that you can use elispe with vim for both python
> >> a C/C++ too
> >> but I haven't really dug into it.
> >>
> >> If I could go back in time to tell myself five years ago what to
> >> learn sooner,
> >> it would include python, vim, and regular expressions. Being able
> >> to write
> >> python vim scripts that patch your csound instruments and scores
> >> if really
> >> really handy. If you know all three well you can save yourself a
> >> whole pile of
> >> csound headaches. ;)
> >>
> >> Iain
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ya, i'm kinda seeing that too.  yet, i'm comfortable with emacs, so
> > maybe thats why?  i also really like common music, so staying in
> > lisp is
> > a draw, as cm also has realtime algorithmic facilities, and midi
> > recording, which i'm interested in pursuing, mainly realtime
> > algorithmic
> > composition, and recording.   anyways thanks for your input, and
> > everyone else too!
> >
> > ken
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ---
> > Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
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> >
>
>_____________________________
>David Worrall: sonify@avatar.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________
>experimental polymedia: www.avatar.com.au
>Sonic Communications Research Group,
>University of Canberra: www.canberra.edu.au
>
>
>
>
>
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Victor Lazzarini
Music Technology Laboratory
Music Department
National University of Ireland, Maynooth 


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On Thu, 2006-28-09 at 09:28 +0100, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
> This sounds excellent. Would like to hear more. Would you
> consider writing an article for the Csound Journal that
> Steven and Jim edit? That'd be really interesting.

Yeah that does sound cool. I'd be interested in seeing it!
Iain



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Hi Victor, Iain, et al

I'd be happy to ... when I get some sort of integration model up and  
running.
( If only all sw was as well supported as CS :-) It's a bit slow so  
don't hold you're breath....

Perhaps you (plural) would like to suggest what approach for the  
article would be of most interest.
We could have this discussion off list rather than sending everyone  
else to sleep... Although,
  I'd be keen to correspond w. anyone else who's following this  
approach;
in practice it needs a very disciplined approach to sw/module/os  
version upgrading, glue/integration structures etc
But the CS dev list is probably not the place....

David

On 29/09/2006, at 2:42 AM, iain duncan wrote:

> On Thu, 2006-28-09 at 09:28 +0100, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
>> This sounds excellent. Would like to hear more. Would you
>> consider writing an article for the Csound Journal that
>> Steven and Jim edit? That'd be really interesting.
>
> Yeah that does sound cool. I'd be interested in seeing it!
> Iain

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