Re: [Cs-dev] Broken again

Date	2005-03-25 02:50
From	"Art Hunkins"
Subject	Re: [Cs-dev] Broken again
	I certainly would be open to having FLTK widgets be a plugin. MIDI also; and different driver models. Let me clarify my point of view on widgets and why they're so essential to me for real time: Unlike some of you, I'm writing real time performance pieces for others - not particularly myself. So I need to take into consideration: 1) various MIDI control surfaces and their varied controller numbering; 2) decisions performers will make in regard to the piece as collaborators/interpreters - which means largely selecting presets or preset ranges. The only viable alternative to on-screen widgets is to edit your own .csd file - something I wouldn't want to risk or wish on a performer. I feel the need to offer performance materials to a potential collaborator that are as user-friendly and approachable as possible, as well as adaptable to a wide range of performance interfaces. Of course, I'm interested also in what Victor suggests - FLTK -only performances (when interaction is slow and fairly minimal. Art Hunkins ----- Original Message ----- From: "Victor Lazzarini" To: Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] Broken again > On the other hand, I find that widgets are really helpful. > My pieces do not use MIDI at all, just the computer and > simple GUIs. Of course, that's the way I work and I find > that it simplifies things for me. When I rehearse with > a performer all I need is a full-duplex soundcard. My > instruments are mostly automated, so all I need to do > is to press buttons when the score tells me to, with > the odd slider movement here and there. There is no > issue with being too slow in this case. > > But I think it might be a good idea if the widget opcodes > could sit in a plugin library. Then you can have them or > not, or even have a different GUI. > > Also, with the API, C++ guis are easy to integrate, for > those who want take the trouble to program them. > > Victor > > > > That is a dangerous assumption. We just did a live techno > > show last night with nothing but csound, and zero screen > > output. The philosophy behind my software design for my > > real time rig is that everything should be controllable > > from midi controllers, and that if I need to reach for a > > mouse or look at a screen, then the interface is too slow. > > The computer sat on the floor. > > > > That said, I think the FLTK stuff is cool, but is there > > any reason we could not have various packages, ie csound, > > csound + FLTK, etc? Would that just wind up being a > > logisitical nightmare? We can already compile it without > > fltk and python, etc so what about binary releases that > > are similar? > > > > Iain > > > > > > Art Hunkins wrote: > > > On-screen graphic widgets - such as FLTK offers - are > > > well-nigh essential for real-time Csound. So much so > > > that unless FLTK or some other cross-platform graphic > > > capability were included in Csound5, we'd be pretty much > > > saying "no" to real-time usage. > > > Art Hunkins > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Michael Gogins" > > > To: > > > Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 9:34 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] Broken again > > > > > > > > > > > >>Your point about libary compatibility for precompiled > > > packages is in > > > principle correct. This is a well-known problem and the > > > Linux community is working to address it with ABI > > > standards. Nevertheless the problem is not going away > > > very soon. > > >>However, this is all somewhat theoretical. What are > > > people's actual > > > experiences with installing Csound 5 with precompiled > > > C++ on different versions of Linux? I'm not talking > > > about CsoundVST here, but about widgets.cpp, > > > fluidOpcodes, and cs4vst. > > >>Of course, I am always running csound 5 on the system > > > that compiled it. On > > > Linux and Unix, I think it is considered acceptable to > > > distribute a package in the form of source code and > > > expect the user to compile it, which resolves this > > > problem. > > >>However, I don't mean to minimize the problem. Users > > > increasingly expect > > > precompiled packages, and especially for musicians this > > > would be a big plus. > > >>I initially opposed having the FLTK widgets in the > > > Csound distribution, > > > but I changed my mind because so many people seemed > to > > > find them useful or even essential. I would not oppose > > > their removal if the Csound 5 community mostly agreed > to > > > remove them. > > >>My points about bugs and speed are separate issues. > > >> > > >>-----Original Message----- > > >>From: vanDongen/Gilcher > > >>Sent: Mar 24, 2005 5:53 AM > > >>To: csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > >>Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] Broken again > > >> > > >>On Tuesday 22 March 2005 15:27, Michael Gogins > wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>>In my view, Csound would contain fewer bugs and run > > > slightly faster if > > > it > > > > > >>>were coded entirely in C++. This view is based on > > experience and >>>experiments, not opinion. I am > prepared > > to show code samples and >>>experimental results to > > support this view. I would of course be very >>>interested > > > to review code samples and experimental results that > > > demonstrate > > > > > >>>the opposite. > > >>> > > >> > > >>My experience is not very extensive, so please correct > > me if I am wrong. >>The biggest problem I have seen with > > > C++ is binary incompatability > > > between > > > > > >>libraries and applications using them. This is actually > > not that much of a >>problem for me, just the nuisance > > that upgrading the compiler means >>recompiling all my > C++ > > libraries. And I don't upgrade my compiler that >>often :) > > >> > > >>But for distributing binaries of programs using a shared > > libcsound it is a >>real problem. The program won't run if > > it was compiled for a libcsound >>compiled differently. > > Even a different optimization flag will break binary > > >>compatibility I think. The only solution is to > > > distribute a statically > > > linked > > > > > >>private copy of libcsound with your application. > > >>So I think that the ambition of csound5 as a platform > > > independent library > > > is > > > > > >>best served by it being pure C. > > >> > > >>(And yes, I think including widgets in core Csound5 > > > was/is a mistake. For > > > one > > > > > >>thing it assumes that csound will only be run on general > > purpose pc's, and >>that as long as you support windows, > > > Mac and linux you are cross platform. > > > My > > > > > >>cell phone has a 400 MHz processor and stereo sound. > > Csound should run on >>that, and it will but without the > > > widgets. Including C++ and widgets in > > > the > > > > > >>core csound, will just create a forks for other uses. ) > > >> > > >>Gerard > > >> > > >> > > >>------------------------------------------------------- > > >>This SF.net email is sponsored by Microsoft Mobile & > > Embedded DevCon 2005 >>Attend MEDC 2005 May 9-12 > in Vegas. > > Learn more about the latest Windows >>Embedded(r) & > > > Windows Mobile(tm) platforms, applications & content. > > > Register > > > > > >>by 3/29 & save $300 > > > > > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6883&alloc_id=15149&op= > click > > > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >>Csound-devel mailing list > > >>Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > >>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-deve > > l >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>------------------------------------------------------- > > >>This SF.net email is sponsored by Microsoft Mobile & > > Embedded DevCon 2005 >>Attend MEDC 2005 May 9-12 > in Vegas. > > Learn more about the latest Windows >>Embedded(r) & > > > Windows Mobile(tm) platforms, applications & content. > > > Register > > > > > >>by 3/29 & save $300 > > > > > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6883&alloc_id=15149&op= > click > > > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >>Csound-devel mailing list > > >>Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > >>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-deve > > > l > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > > > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products > > > from real users. Discover which products truly live up > > > to the hype. Start reading now. > > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op= > click > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Csound-devel mailing list > > > Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products > > from real users. Discover which products truly live up to > > the hype. Start reading now. > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op= > click > > _______________________________________________ > > Csound-devel mailing list > > Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > _______________________________________________ > Csound-devel mailing list > Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel ------------------------------------------------------- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click _______________________________________________ Csound-devel mailing list Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net

Date	2005-03-25 03:09
From	"Richard Boulanger"
Subject	Re: [Cs-dev] Broken again
	Dear Csound5 team. I like the idea of all GUI opcodes being moved out of Csound and into plugin libraries as well. MacCsound has tons of great GUI tools now, but I don't think that they are a part of Csound, they are part of the Mac Launcher/Wrapper for Csound. I would think that it would be to the advantage of everyone to have a cleaner CORE/FOUNDATION and would facilitate cross-platform compatibility (wouldn't it?) Dr. B. on 3/24/05 9:50 PM, Art Hunkins at abhunkin@uncg.edu wrote: > I certainly would be open to having FLTK widgets be a plugin. MIDI also; and > different driver models. > > Let me clarify my point of view on widgets and why they're so essential to > me for real time: Unlike some of you, I'm writing real time performance > pieces for others - not particularly myself. So I need to take into > consideration: 1) various MIDI control surfaces and their varied controller > numbering; 2) decisions performers will make in regard to the piece as > collaborators/interpreters - which means largely selecting presets or preset > ranges. > > The only viable alternative to on-screen widgets is to edit your own .csd > file - something I wouldn't want to risk or wish on a performer. I feel the > need to offer performance materials to a potential collaborator that are as > user-friendly and approachable as possible, as well as adaptable to a wide > range of performance interfaces. > > Of course, I'm interested also in what Victor suggests - FLTK -only > performances (when interaction is slow and fairly minimal. > > Art Hunkins > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Victor Lazzarini" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 5:00 PM > Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] Broken again > > >> On the other hand, I find that widgets are really helpful. >> My pieces do not use MIDI at all, just the computer and >> simple GUIs. Of course, that's the way I work and I find >> that it simplifies things for me. When I rehearse with >> a performer all I need is a full-duplex soundcard. My >> instruments are mostly automated, so all I need to do >> is to press buttons when the score tells me to, with >> the odd slider movement here and there. There is no >> issue with being too slow in this case. >> >> But I think it might be a good idea if the widget opcodes >> could sit in a plugin library. Then you can have them or >> not, or even have a different GUI. >> >> Also, with the API, C++ guis are easy to integrate, for >> those who want take the trouble to program them. >> >> Victor >>> >>> That is a dangerous assumption. We just did a live techno >>> show last night with nothing but csound, and zero screen >>> output. The philosophy behind my software design for my >>> real time rig is that everything should be controllable >>> from midi controllers, and that if I need to reach for a >>> mouse or look at a screen, then the interface is too slow. >>> The computer sat on the floor. >>> >>> That said, I think the FLTK stuff is cool, but is there >>> any reason we could not have various packages, ie csound, >>> csound + FLTK, etc? Would that just wind up being a >>> logisitical nightmare? We can already compile it without >>> fltk and python, etc so what about binary releases that >>> are similar? >>> >>> Iain >>> >>> >>> Art Hunkins wrote: >>>> On-screen graphic widgets - such as FLTK offers - are >>>> well-nigh essential for real-time Csound. So much so >>>> that unless FLTK or some other cross-platform graphic >>>> capability were included in Csound5, we'd be pretty much >>>> saying "no" to real-time usage. >>>> Art Hunkins >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Michael Gogins" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 9:34 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] Broken again >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Your point about libary compatibility for precompiled >>>> packages is in >>>> principle correct. This is a well-known problem and the >>>> Linux community is working to address it with ABI >>>> standards. Nevertheless the problem is not going away >>>> very soon. >>>>> However, this is all somewhat theoretical. What are >>>> people's actual >>>> experiences with installing Csound 5 with precompiled >>>> C++ on different versions of Linux? I'm not talking >>>> about CsoundVST here, but about widgets.cpp, >>>> fluidOpcodes, and cs4vst. >>>>> Of course, I am always running csound 5 on the system >>>> that compiled it. On >>>> Linux and Unix, I think it is considered acceptable to >>>> distribute a package in the form of source code and >>>> expect the user to compile it, which resolves this >>>> problem. >>>>> However, I don't mean to minimize the problem. Users >>>> increasingly expect >>>> precompiled packages, and especially for musicians this >>>> would be a big plus. >>>>> I initially opposed having the FLTK widgets in the >>>> Csound distribution, >>>> but I changed my mind because so many people seemed >> to >>>> find them useful or even essential. I would not oppose >>>> their removal if the Csound 5 community mostly agreed >> to >>>> remove them. >>>>> My points about bugs and speed are separate issues. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: vanDongen/Gilcher >>>>> Sent: Mar 24, 2005 5:53 AM >>>>> To: csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net >>>>> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] Broken again >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday 22 March 2005 15:27, Michael Gogins >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> In my view, Csound would contain fewer bugs and run >>>> slightly faster if >>>> it >>>> >>>>>> were coded entirely in C++. This view is based on >>> experience and >>>experiments, not opinion. I am >> prepared >>> to show code samples and >>>experimental results to >>> support this view. I would of course be very >>>interested >>>> to review code samples and experimental results that >>>> demonstrate >>>> >>>>>> the opposite. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My experience is not very extensive, so please correct >>> me if I am wrong. >>The biggest problem I have seen with >>>> C++ is binary incompatability >>>> between >>>> >>>>> libraries and applications using them. This is actually >>> not that much of a >>problem for me, just the nuisance >>> that upgrading the compiler means >>recompiling all my >> C++ >>> libraries. And I don't upgrade my compiler that >>often :) >>>>> >>>>> But for distributing binaries of programs using a shared >>> libcsound it is a >>real problem. The program won't run if >>> it was compiled for a libcsound >>compiled differently. >>> Even a different optimization flag will break binary >>>>> compatibility I think. The only solution is to >>>> distribute a statically >>>> linked >>>> >>>>> private copy of libcsound with your application. >>>>> So I think that the ambition of csound5 as a platform >>>> independent library >>>> is >>>> >>>>> best served by it being pure C. >>>>> >>>>> (And yes, I think including widgets in core Csound5 >>>> was/is a mistake. For >>>> one >>>> >>>>> thing it assumes that csound will only be run on general >>> purpose pc's, and >>that as long as you support windows, >>>> Mac and linux you are cross platform. >>>> My >>>> >>>>> cell phone has a 400 MHz processor and stereo sound. >>> Csound should run on >>that, and it will but without the >>>> widgets. Including C++ and widgets in >>>> the >>>> >>>>> core csound, will just create a forks for other uses. ) >>>>> >>>>> Gerard >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> This SF.net email is sponsored by Microsoft Mobile & >>> Embedded DevCon 2005 >>Attend MEDC 2005 May 9-12 >> in Vegas. >>> Learn more about the latest Windows >>Embedded(r) & >>>> Windows Mobile(tm) platforms, applications & content. >>>> Register >>>> >>>>> by 3/29 & save $300 >>>> >>>> http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6883&alloc_id=15149&op= >> click >>>> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Csound-devel mailing list >>>>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-deve >>> l >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> This SF.net email is sponsored by Microsoft Mobile & >>> Embedded DevCon 2005 >>Attend MEDC 2005 May 9-12 >> in Vegas. >>> Learn more about the latest Windows >>Embedded(r) & >>>> Windows Mobile(tm) platforms, applications & content. >>>> Register >>>> >>>>> by 3/29 & save $300 >>>> >>>> http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6883&alloc_id=15149&op= >> click >>>> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Csound-devel mailing list >>>>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-deve >>>> l >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>>> SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide >>>> Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products >>>> from real users. Discover which products truly live up >>>> to the hype. Start reading now. >>>> http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op= >> click >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> Csound-devel mailing list >>>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net >>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>> SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide >>> Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products >>> from real users. Discover which products truly live up to >>> the hype. Start reading now. >>> http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op= >> click >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Csound-devel mailing list >>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------- >> SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide >> Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. >> Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. >> http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click >> _______________________________________________ >> Csound-devel mailing list >> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > _______________________________________________ > Csound-devel mailing list > Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel _______________________________________________________________________ + Dr. Richard Boulanger, Professor + Music Synthesis Department, Berklee College of Music + 1140 Boylston Street - Boston, MA 02215-3693 + Office Phone: (617) 747-2485 Office Fax: (617) 747-2564 + eMail: rboulanger@csounds.com or rboulanger@berklee.edu + WebPage: http://csounds.com/boulanger/ ________________________________________________________________________ + Almost Everything Csound @ http://csounds.com/ + The Csound Catalog with Audio @ http://csounds.com/catalog/ + The Csound Book @ http://csounds.com/book/ + The Csound Magazine @ http://csounds.com/ezine/ + CsoundForums @ http://csounds.com/phpBB2/ ________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click _______________________________________________ Csound-devel mailing list Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net