> From: jpff@codemist.co.uk
> To: csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] stdutil library & February 1
> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:28:15 +0000
> 
> [...]  Then let us DISCUSS where we are going.

Well, we successfully got Csound 5.00 released.  (And I do think that it has
been a success -- everyone's questions indicate that they are using it ;)

And we already have a bug fix version (mostly) pushed out the door.  So, per
John's request above, I ask

"where are we going next?"


I can see a million and one things that need to be done or could be done.  I
also have some other projects that I am getting into right now, so I am not
sure whether or not to put Csound on the back burner for awhile.  A few
potentialities, though:

* Cleaning up and expanding the manual.

    This would seem to be a very high priority, especially some
    comprehensive API docs.

* Build on top of the API to provide better GUIs, real-time performance
systems, SDKs, etc.

    We have the API in pretty good shape now, we could leave the core
    Csound library alone for awhile to allow people (including ourselves)
    to actually USE it!  Changing things too quickly might discourage new
    development with the API, and as DR. B pointed out, Csound 5 still
    needs a big usability boost when compared to some Cs4 systems.  So,
    maybe we should focus more on tools that use Csound (like John is
    doing with the new version of Winsound).

* Finishing the new orchestra parser.  (A new score parser would not be a
bad idea either).

* Fixing outstanding bugs and issues.


What do all of you want to do?

Anthony Kozar
anthonykozar AT sbcglobal DOT net



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At 02:29 23/03/2006, you wrote:
>"where are we going next?"
>* Cleaning up and expanding the manual.
>
>     This would seem to be a very high priority, especially some
>     comprehensive API docs.
This is a big must do now. If we don't have the API docs, its usability
is limited to people that have been involved in writing and/or testing
bits of it.1

>* Build on top of the API to provide better GUIs, real-time performance
>systems, SDKs, etc.
>
>     We have the API in pretty good shape now, we could leave the core
>     Csound library alone for awhile to allow people (including ourselves)
>     to actually USE it!  Changing things too quickly might discourage new
>     development with the API, and as DR. B pointed out, Csound 5 still
>     needs a big usability boost when compared to some Cs4 systems.  So,
>     maybe we should focus more on tools that use Csound (like John is
>     doing with the new version of Winsound).

I can see, from my little survey on API projects, there are a number of
upcoming projects that provide a variety of frontend approaches. I
am not too worried. I think Csound 5 already looks the future of
computer music.
Perhaps from a Mac-only perspective it does not
seem like that, but even there it is: there are seven different frontends
already: the csound 5 GUI, csound 5 wish, csoundapi~, csound~,
CSDPlayer, CsoundXAlpha and csound 'classic' command-line (as
well as cstclsh, so there are eight), and that does not include John's
winsound. There is no MacCsound with an editor, but I am sure Matt
will eventually include an editor in his version. Anyway, editors are
plentiful.

>* Finishing the new orchestra parser.  (A new score parser would not be a
>bad idea either).

The thing is, one of us will have to volunteer to partner John in that
venture, as he is the only one in it. We will have to spend sometime learning
musmon code and then yacc/lex. But that's of great importance.

>* Fixing outstanding bugs and issues.

and I would add: once the new parser is done, we should try adding
arrays of signals/opcodes and an interpreter. From what I hear from
John, this would be possible with a new parser.



>What do all of you want to do?
>
>Anthony Kozar
>anthonykozar AT sbcglobal DOT net
>
>
>
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Victor Lazzarini
Music Technology Laboratory
Music Department
National University of Ireland, Maynooth 



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Victor Lazzarini wrote:

> >* Finishing the new orchestra parser.  (A new score parser would not be a
> >bad idea either).
> 
> The thing is, one of us will have to volunteer to partner John in that
> venture, as he is the only one in it. We will have to spend sometime learning
> musmon code and then yacc/lex. But that's of great importance.

What is the new orc parser intended to achieve? Is a new orc
grammar going to be developed or is it simply a reimplemntation
of the current grammar in lex and yacc?

If its the former, I would be willing to lend a hand. I have 
had considerable experience over the last many years using
flex and bison (GNU versions of lex and yacc) as well as 
the O'caml versions (ocamllex/ocamlyacc). I am also rather
interested in programming languages and their grammars.

Erik
-- 
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
  Erik de Castro Lopo
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
"These are the finest moments in (post)modern life, when satire is completly
indistinguishable from reality... I usually have to rely on the presidential
elections for such dada." -- frenomulax on Jesux a christian Linux distro.


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That seems to be the first step.

At 09:59 23/03/2006, you wrote:
>If its the former, I would be willing to lend a hand. I have
>had considerable experience over the last many years using
>flex and bison (GNU versions of lex and yacc) as well as
>the O'caml versions (ocamllex/ocamlyacc). I am also rather
>interested in programming languages and their grammars

Victor Lazzarini
Music Technology Laboratory
Music Department
National University of Ireland, Maynooth 



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> >* Finishing the new orchestra parser.  (A new score parser would not be a
> >bad idea either).
> 
> The thing is, one of us will have to volunteer to partner John in that
> venture, as he is the only one in it. We will have to spend sometime learning
> musmon code and then yacc/lex. But that's of great importance.

I am currently negotiating to get a summer student to work on this.
Not sure if we can arrange funding but the student (who is blind) is
good and interested in the whole area of compilation

==John ffitch


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jpff@codemist.co.uk wrote:

> I am currently negotiating to get a summer student to work on this.
> Not sure if we can arrange funding but the student (who is blind) is
> good and interested in the whole area of compilation

One thing that might be interesting was to create and API whereby
language front ends could be grafted onto Csound. This would make
things like a SAOL-MP4 frontend much more likely to come about.

Erik
-- 
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
  Erik de Castro Lopo
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
"Allaah has forbidden the believers to take the kaafireen 
(disbelievers) as friends, and He has issued a stern warning 
against doing that." --
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=59879&dgn=4


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>>>>> "Erik" == Erik de Castro Lopo  writes:

 Erik> Victor Lazzarini wrote:
 >> >* Finishing the new orchestra parser.  (A new score parser would not be a
 >> >bad idea either).
 >> 
 >> The thing is, one of us will have to volunteer to partner John in that
 >> venture, as he is the only one in it. We will have to spend sometime learning
 >> musmon code and then yacc/lex. But that's of great importance.

 Erik> What is the new orc parser intended to achieve? Is a new orc
 Erik> grammar going to be developed or is it simply a reimplemntation
 Erik> of the current grammar in lex and yacc?

 Erik> If its the former, I would be willing to lend a hand. I have 
 Erik> had considerable experience over the last many years using
 Erik> flex and bison (GNU versions of lex and yacc) as well as 
 Erik> the O'caml versions (ocamllex/ocamlyacc). I am also rather
 Erik> interested in programming languages and their grammars.

The history of this is that the current parser is a 1970s-style lashup
(with all respect to Barry).  The lexer is ad hoc and wrong, and there
are a number of ways in which it is unsatisfactory -- I mean the code
not the language.  In 2001 I wrote a lex/yacc (flex/bison) parser for
the then Csound language, with the intention that it should form part
of Csound5.  The parser parsers, and creates parse trees.  Most of the
semantic analysis was done, but then the introduction of plugins
caused a major rewrite and I never got enough time to work on it.  And
then the language kept changing faster than my free time.

The intent was first to determine how to link the parser to the engine
for the current language.  Much to my surprise (and probably most
CS-types) is that the csound language was liked by many musicians, and
they did not seem to care about the formal language nasties.  I
originally (c1995) wanted to replace the whole language, but was
convinced that it was a wrong action, and ensuring the cross-platform
interoperability and extending the functionality with new opcodes.

However if we can get the hooks right between parsing and engine the
opportunity for alternative languages arises, and then we can see what
the user base wants.

==John ffitch


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That would certainly be interesting. We will then separate synthesis
engine and language. That API would be very desirable.

Victor

At 06:41 24/03/2006, you wrote:
>jpff@codemist.co.uk wrote:
>
> > I am currently negotiating to get a summer student to work on this.
> > Not sure if we can arrange funding but the student (who is blind) is
> > good and interested in the whole area of compilation
>
>One thing that might be interesting was to create and API whereby
>language front ends could be grafted onto Csound. This would make
>things like a SAOL-MP4 frontend much more likely to come about.
>
>Erik
>--
>+-----------------------------------------------------------+
>   Erik de Castro Lopo
>+-----------------------------------------------------------+
>"Allaah has forbidden the believers to take the kaafireen
>(disbelievers) as friends, and He has issued a stern warning
>against doing that." --
>http://islamqa.com/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=59879&dgn=4
>
>
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Victor Lazzarini
Music Technology Laboratory
Music Department
National University of Ireland, Maynooth 



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