True - though you developers individually will need to make that decision.
And I'll have to make my own decisions about the platforms I choose and how
I relate to the cross-platform issue.

There is certainly *much* to be said for platform-specific versions of
Csound, particularly for real-time work. Examples: 1) it will be a long time
before realtime audio output on Csound5 approaches the simplicity,
dependability and low latency, etc. of CsoundAV; 2) as Istvan admits below,
it's a lot easier to come up with defaults that suit Windows realtime, than
ones that suit all platforms (thus requiring the user to have to "fool" with
what should be default settings. I'm *still* waiting for the -B flag
requirement to become optional in CS5 - and, yes, it's very much a hassle
for me. We need defaults!)

I'll personally address AV issues directly with Gab Maldonado (as I am
currently), and CS5 issues generally with the developer group (as here). The
AV world is *now*; CS5 is more and more the future.

You mention "by the end of the year." I *hope* to be composing by then, but
I'm actually composing (and living) right now - and I must work with the
tools I've got and when I have the (God-given) time to use them.

So, God bless Gab Maldonado and CsoundAV - and for that matter, Matt Ingalls
and MacCsound. (There are others who feel just as dedicated to these
specialized programs as I do.) Their efforts - *continuing* efforts - make
it possible for many of us *actually to compose with Csound*.

Of course, God bless you other developers too. You are a very important part
of our future. Hopefully, CS5 will reach the same level of performance and
user-friendliness for Windows and Mac users that CsoundAV and MacCsound have
enjoyed for some time now.

Art Hunkins
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Gogins" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] New file release for Csound 5 and CsoundVST on Windows


> Not only that, if but the developers of various versions pooled their
efforts on csound 5, we would have a superior version that works on all
platforms before the end of this year. And there would not be anything else
in computer music remotely as powerful.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Istvan Varga 
> Sent: Mar 11, 2005 7:03 AM
> To: csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] New file release for Csound 5 and CsoundVST on
Windows
>
> Art Hunkins wrote:
>
> > in CsoundAV (in contrast to all others) I *never* have to fool
>  > with buffer settings.
>
> CsoundAV does not, and will probably never run on anything other
> than Windows, making it much easier to find default buffer settings.
>
> > In CS5 Windows, the buffer issue is quite unclear and changing
>
> More details on this ?
>
>  > plus seems to be different on different platforms.
>
> Well, but Csound5 at least actually runs on different platforms.
> And things like buffer settings are highly machine dependent.
>
> > Also, since only ASIO is implemented, regular soundcard users have to
>  > install and configure ASIO4ALL.
>
> PortAudio is not limited to ASIO, it also supports DirectSound and MME
> (as well as WDM but that is experimental). You may want to ask Michael
> Gogins to include a PortAudio module that is compiled to use DirectSound
> in the next Windows file release.
>
> > I'll also add that Gab Maldonado has been active in maintaining and
> > debugging CsoundAV, and personally responsive to my particular needs
(i.e.,
> > realtime performance).
>
> Now if only all the efforts on maintaining the various platform specific
> Csound variants derived from old versions of Csound4 would be spent on
> Csound5, we would eventually get one good version instead of several
> broken ones, all with their own set of bugs that have been fixed in
others.
> And the fact is that in recent years CsoundAV was only actively developed
> in the areas of real time audio, OpenGL, and FLTK, while core language
> support is still only 4.19.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide
> Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users.
> Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now.
> http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click
> _______________________________________________
> Csound-devel mailing list
> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide
> Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users.
> Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now.
> http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click
> _______________________________________________
> Csound-devel mailing list
> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel



-------------------------------------------------------
SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide
Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users.
Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now.
http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click
_______________________________________________
Csound-devel mailing list
Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net

> There is certainly *much* to be said for platform-specific versions of
> Csound, particularly for real-time work. Examples: 1) it will be a long time
> before realtime audio output on Csound5 approaches the simplicity,
> dependability and low latency, etc. of CsoundAV; 2) as Istvan admits below,
> it's a lot easier to come up with defaults that suit Windows realtime, than
> ones that suit all platforms (thus requiring the user to have to "fool" with
> what should be default settings. I'm *still* waiting for the -B flag
> requirement to become optional in CS5 - and, yes, it's very much a hassle
> for me. We need defaults!)

Art, I have to disagree on the real time performance. I have quite 
possibly one of the largest freaking csound ensembles ever made for my 
gig set up. Tons and tons of tables, macros, files, and instruments, all 
intercommunicating through event calls, table read and write, zak 
channels, full duplex midi and audio, etc. After a certain size it just 
stopped working on CsoundAV. It was a size issue, all components kept 
working seperately, and for some reason the whole thing just stopped 
working. We switched to linux with Varga build 4.23.4.2, not only did it 
keep working, but real time performance was over 30% better, latency 
significantly lower, and over all stability 100%. The varga build kept 
working on widows too for that matter, but performance was so much 
better on linux that I deleted windows from my machine. ;) Csound5 will 
be even better. There is no reason we should need anything more platform 
specific than modules for i/o such as Istvan's alsa specific output 
module. Once the bugs are out, using different modules will be totally 
transparent to the user.

As far as I can tell right now, I should be able to use csound5 for my 
upcoming gigs this month, admitedly on linux. I'll report how it goes at 
any rate.

Iain

> I'll personally address AV issues directly with Gab Maldonado (as I am
> currently), and CS5 issues generally with the developer group (as here). The
> AV world is *now*; CS5 is more and more the future.
> 
> You mention "by the end of the year." I *hope* to be composing by then, but
> I'm actually composing (and living) right now - and I must work with the
> tools I've got and when I have the (God-given) time to use them.
> 
> So, God bless Gab Maldonado and CsoundAV - and for that matter, Matt Ingalls
> and MacCsound. (There are others who feel just as dedicated to these
> specialized programs as I do.) Their efforts - *continuing* efforts - make
> it possible for many of us *actually to compose with Csound*.
> 
> Of course, God bless you other developers too. You are a very important part
> of our future. Hopefully, CS5 will reach the same level of performance and
> user-friendliness for Windows and Mac users that CsoundAV and MacCsound have
> enjoyed for some time now.
> 
> Art Hunkins
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Gogins" 
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 9:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] New file release for Csound 5 and CsoundVST on Windows
> 
> 
> 
>>Not only that, if but the developers of various versions pooled their
> 
> efforts on csound 5, we would have a superior version that works on all
> platforms before the end of this year. And there would not be anything else
> in computer music remotely as powerful.
> 
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Istvan Varga 
>>Sent: Mar 11, 2005 7:03 AM
>>To: csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] New file release for Csound 5 and CsoundVST on
> 
> Windows
> 
>>Art Hunkins wrote:
>>
>>
>>>in CsoundAV (in contrast to all others) I *never* have to fool
>>
>> > with buffer settings.
>>
>>CsoundAV does not, and will probably never run on anything other
>>than Windows, making it much easier to find default buffer settings.
>>
>>
>>>In CS5 Windows, the buffer issue is quite unclear and changing
>>
>>More details on this ?
>>
>> > plus seems to be different on different platforms.
>>
>>Well, but Csound5 at least actually runs on different platforms.
>>And things like buffer settings are highly machine dependent.
>>
>>
>>>Also, since only ASIO is implemented, regular soundcard users have to
>>
>> > install and configure ASIO4ALL.
>>
>>PortAudio is not limited to ASIO, it also supports DirectSound and MME
>>(as well as WDM but that is experimental). You may want to ask Michael
>>Gogins to include a PortAudio module that is compiled to use DirectSound
>>in the next Windows file release.
>>
>>
>>>I'll also add that Gab Maldonado has been active in maintaining and
>>>debugging CsoundAV, and personally responsive to my particular needs
> 
> (i.e.,
> 
>>>realtime performance).
>>
>>Now if only all the efforts on maintaining the various platform specific
>>Csound variants derived from old versions of Csound4 would be spent on
>>Csound5, we would eventually get one good version instead of several
>>broken ones, all with their own set of bugs that have been fixed in
> 
> others.
> 
>>And the fact is that in recent years CsoundAV was only actively developed
>>in the areas of real time audio, OpenGL, and FLTK, while core language
>>support is still only 4.19.
>>
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------
>>SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide
>>Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users.
>>Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now.
>>http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click
>>_______________________________________________
>>Csound-devel mailing list
>>Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------
>>SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide
>>Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users.
>>Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now.
>>http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click
>>_______________________________________________
>>Csound-devel mailing list
>>Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide
> Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users.
> Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now.
> http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click
> _______________________________________________
> Csound-devel mailing list
> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
> 


-------------------------------------------------------
SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide
Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users.
Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now.
http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click
_______________________________________________
Csound-devel mailing list
Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net