Certainly. I would also like to know what your revised score processing 
scheme for Csound would be like!

About MusicXML, there are two parts - one for CsoundAC, and one for Csound. 
I am sure I will do the CsoundAC layer, I am not so sure about the Csound 
layer.

For CsoundAC, the csound::Score class already has load and save member 
functions. These would be overloaded to load and save csound::Score type 
scores from and to MusicXML files. The data read and written would be purely 
the "sounding" MusicXML data, not any indications for how to visually notate 
that data. MusicXML parts would become CsoundAC instrument numbers, and vice 
versa. There might need to be some provision for mapping CsoundAC instrument 
numbers to part numbers if the former are not in sequence, or for mapping or 
rescaling tempos or dynamics.

For Csound itself, I am not contemplating exporting MusicXML, but I am 
thinking about emabling Csound to render from MusicXML files.

This could be done in a number of different ways. The easiest way would be 
add to the CsoundFile class the same stuff that I will be adding to the 
CsoundAC Score class. In this case, the ability to use MusicXML would 
require scripting from the Csound API.

It would also be possible to add a command-line option, or simply to switch 
off the filename extension, so that Csound's core score reader could work 
off MusicXML files. This, of course, would be usable without scripting and 
would probably therefore be more useful.

Some MusicXML files and parts backtrack in time. Therefore, it would be 
necessary to translate the entire MusicXML file to a Csound score before 
rendering it, although I expect that this can be done pretty quickly.

In that case, the code for translating MusicXML to Csound scores could be 
factored into a static library and used both by the csnd module that 
contains CsoundFile, and by the main Csound module.

I repeat, I would like to know more about your plans for revised score 
processing. It may be that we should think about how our plans could be 
integrated. Perhaps we should to think about a plugin design for score 
processing in Csound. The current score reader would be one plugin, your new 
scheme another, and the MusicXML reader a third.

Regards,
Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jpff" 
To: "Developer discussions" 
Cc: 
Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] MusicXML


>I am already working on a revised score-processing scheme for
> Csound.  Can you provide more details of how you intend adding it, and
> what the user-visible changes will be?
> ==John ffitch
>
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michael.gogins@gmail.com wrote:
...
> For Csound itself, I am not contemplating exporting MusicXML, but I am 
> thinking about emabling Csound to render from MusicXML files.
> 
> This could be done in a number of different ways. The easiest way would be 
> add to the CsoundFile class the same stuff that I will be adding to the 
> CsoundAC Score class. In this case, the ability to use MusicXML would 
> require scripting from the Csound API.
> 
> It would also be possible to add a command-line option, or simply to switch 
> off the filename extension, so that Csound's core score reader could work 
> off MusicXML files. This, of course, would be usable without scripting and 
> would probably therefore be more useful.
> 
> Some MusicXML files and parts backtrack in time. Therefore, it would be 
> necessary to translate the entire MusicXML file to a Csound score before 
> rendering it, although I expect that this can be done pretty quickly.

Just wanted to say that I strongly think this kind of stuff is better
handled by a separate commandline application that would translate a
MusicXML file (according to some map of instr numbers and parameters) to
a .sco file.

-- 
/Jonatan         [ http://kymatica.com ]

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The revised scheme is very simple.  There is a new .csd section called
CsExScore that copies the body to a file, and calls an external
program to write a traditional score.  I am currently
planning/designing a different score specification that is restrictive
but oriented towards traditional (rock/pop) notations.

For example:
------------------------------------------------------------------------




nchnls =        2
instr 1  
  a1,a2 mp3in "new.mp3"
        outs a1,a2
endin


f1 0 16384 49 "mpadec/new.mp3" 0 0 0
; run for 30 secs
i1 0 10 


------------------------------------------------------------------------
calls the external program nullscore with two arguments -- names of
files to read and to write.
==John ffitch

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Hi,

I think


is not XML compliant. I'm not sure if it's really necessary, but
something compliant would be:

or

nullscore


Cheers,
Andrés

On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 6:10 AM, jpff  wrote:
> The revised scheme is very simple.  There is a new .csd section called
> CsExScore that copies the body to a file, and calls an external
> program to write a traditional score.  I am currently
> planning/designing a different score specification that is restrictive
> but oriented towards traditional (rock/pop) notations.
>
> For example:
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nchnls =        2
> instr 1
>  a1,a2 mp3in "new.mp3"
>        outs a1,a2
> endin
> 
> 
> f1 0 16384 49 "mpadec/new.mp3" 0 0 0
> ; run for 30 secs
> i1 0 10
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> calls the external program nullscore with two arguments -- names of
> files to read and to write.
> ==John ffitch
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>



-- 


Andrés

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Andres is correct, it is not good XML.  Of his alternates, I think the 
attribute version is the most succinct:


...


Andres Cabrera wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I think
> 
> 
> is not XML compliant. I'm not sure if it's really necessary, but
> something compliant would be:
> 
> or
> 
> nullscore
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Andrés
> 
> On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 6:10 AM, jpff  wrote:
>> The revised scheme is very simple.  There is a new .csd section called
>> CsExScore that copies the body to a file, and calls an external
>> program to write a traditional score.  I am currently
>> planning/designing a different score specification that is restrictive
>> but oriented towards traditional (rock/pop) notations.
>>
>> For example:
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> nchnls =        2
>> instr 1
>>  a1,a2 mp3in "new.mp3"
>>        outs a1,a2
>> endin
>> 
>> 
>> f1 0 16384 49 "mpadec/new.mp3" 0 0 0
>> ; run for 30 secs
>> i1 0 10
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> calls the external program nullscore with two arguments -- names of
>> files to read and to write.
>> ==John ffitch
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are
>> powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and
>> easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development
>> software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging.
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>> _______________________________________________
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>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>
> 
> 
> 

-- 
~DaveSeidel = [
   http://mysterybear.net,
   http://daveseidel.tumblr.com,
   http://twitter.com/DaveSeidel
];


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blue does something like this with its External and ObjectBuilder
soundObjects.  I ended up allowing the user to supply a formatted
string, so they can write something like "myprog -i $infile -o
$outfile --extra-flags".

I don't think i really care for this to be in Csound itself, and it
seems very backwards to me: why not have your external program just
generated the CSD?

steven

On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Dave Seidel  wrote:
> Andres is correct, it is not good XML.  Of his alternates, I think the
> attribute version is the most succinct:
>
> 
> ...
> 
>
> Andres Cabrera wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I think
>> 
>>
>> is not XML compliant. I'm not sure if it's really necessary, but
>> something compliant would be:
>> 
>> or
>> 
>> nullscore
>> 
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Andrés
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 6:10 AM, jpff  wrote:
>>> The revised scheme is very simple.  There is a new .csd section called
>>> CsExScore that copies the body to a file, and calls an external
>>> program to write a traditional score.  I am currently
>>> planning/designing a different score specification that is restrictive
>>> but oriented towards traditional (rock/pop) notations.
>>>
>>> For example:
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> nchnls =        2
>>> instr 1
>>>  a1,a2 mp3in "new.mp3"
>>>        outs a1,a2
>>> endin
>>> 
>>> 
>>> f1 0 16384 49 "mpadec/new.mp3" 0 0 0
>>> ; run for 30 secs
>>> i1 0 10
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> calls the external program nullscore with two arguments -- names of
>>> files to read and to write.
>>> ==John ffitch
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are
>>> powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and
>>> easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development
>>> software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging.
>>> Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Csound-devel mailing list
>>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> ~DaveSeidel = [
>   http://mysterybear.net,
>   http://daveseidel.tumblr.com,
>   http://twitter.com/DaveSeidel
> ];
>
>
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I changed it to 

...


I guess I should add the double quotes....  Will do.
Also adjusted the manual.

I now have a simple score language based on western conventional
terms, which I am just polishing and testing.

==John ffitch

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I like this idea as I had suggested some time ago that we create a mechanism
for arbitrary score preprocessors.  I was thinking that the preprocessors
would be Csound plugins but this method is more flexible in some ways.  **

Now because people will want to do all sorts of creative things with this
feature, I agree with Steven that we need to make it more flexible.  Being
able to supply a complete commandline will make it easier to use a variety
of tools.  I am glad to see that the feature is using the established
temporary file routines since that will work better with front ends.

I have just a couple of concerns.  First, we need a way to optionally keep
the externally generated score from being deleted when Csound is done.  A
commandline option similar to --keep-sorted-score would be good.  I have
thought for awhile that a --keep-temp-files option would be useful and that
would suffice for this purpose too.

Second, as much as I like this feature, it is not terribly cross-platform.
We can't expect all unix shell commands to work on Windows and system() is a
dummy function on Mac OS 9.  The current implementation will almost
certainly produce an error on OS 9 when the output score is not found.  Is
there a way that we could implement this so that the launch mechanism is
"platform independent" ?  Maybe we just need some code for OS 9 that
implements something similar or that spits out a message saying that the
feature is unavailable on that platform.

Thanks to John for adding this new feature!

Anthony Kozar
mailing-lists-1001 AT anthonykozar DOT net
http://anthonykozar.net/

** I like that users will be able to include an alternate score format in
the CSD because the Csound score format is not often used as the "source
code" for the score.  This method will make it easier for people to render
Csound compositions distributed in their "source" form and should work with
any Csound front end.  I'm sure people will find many creative uses for it
ranging from using Cmask or nGen scores to preprocessing with awk or m4, to
embedding Python score generators in their CSDs.  We even already have an
alternate score interpreter being distributed with Csound which will be
easier to use now: Scot!


Steven Yi wrote on 3/16/09 1:05 PM:

> blue does something like this with its External and ObjectBuilder
> soundObjects.  I ended up allowing the user to supply a formatted
> string, so they can write something like "myprog -i $infile -o
> $outfile --extra-flags".
> 
> I don't think i really care for this to be in Csound itself, and it
> seems very backwards to me: why not have your external program just
> generated the CSD?
> 
> steven


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While there is still time to haggle here, can we use an attribute name that
is more meaningful than "bin" ?  Especially since it is now implemented as
an extension of the existing  tag, something like "preprocessor" or
"externalCommand" would be more meaningful to me.


...


I will also modify the commandline usage of Scot and Cscore so that they can
work with this new feature.  (Scot always writes a file called "score" and
cscoremain.c currently only writes to stdout).
  
- Anthony

jpff wrote on 3/17/09 11:10 AM:

> I changed it to 
> 
> ...
> 


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my day job is working on notation software and dealing with MusicXML  
and Xerces has been even more painful than working with CSound sources..

it is true that MusicXML contains info for playback, but it really is  
a file spec for music notation and does not seem appropriate for  
CSound -- personally, i would stick with MIDI -- most notation  
programs import MIDI and they probably would do a better job  
converting to notation than trying to write a MusicXML export for  
Csound from scratch.


as for the CSD format, i would put in my vote as others have suggested:
GET RID of pseduo-xml!!!!  instead, create 2 formats:
1) a fully proper xml file
2) a SIMPLE "csound-specific" file:

options
...
endoptions

instruments ; ...  this block be the default, and thus optional

instr
endin
...

endinstruments ; ....

score
f1 0 16384 49 "mpadec/new.mp3" 0 0 0
i1 0 10
endscore








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system is part of C89, C99, and POSIX.1-2001.  If OS9 does not
implement it that is a bug in the C system.  Actually it is not too
hard to write -- I did when I supported OS9 code.  The use of system
is very simple; it could be replaced by fork/exec but that is less
portable. 

--keep-temp-files could be interesting.  Will think about it.
==John ffitch

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jpff wrote on 3/18/09 3:19 AM:

> --keep-temp-files could be interesting.  Will think about it.

This should be easy to implement by modifying remove_tmpfiles() in
one_file.c.

> system is part of C89, C99, and POSIX.1-2001.  If OS9 does not
> implement it that is a bug in the C system.  Actually it is not too
> hard to write -- I did when I supported OS9 code.

What would system() do on OS 9?  There is no way to pass commandline
arguments to the main() function of a standard Mac OS 9 program.  It could
be done with Apple Events ...

I guess when I asked about a "platform-independent mechanism" for doing
this, I really did not think that one would exist.

> The use of system is very simple; it could be replaced by fork/exec but
> that is less portable.

fork and exec are definitely not implemented on OS 9.  I think making the
score preprocessors as plugins to Csound might be about the only assured
"cross-platform" solution, but that is far less flexible than the current
implementation, so I am not recommending it.

But I suppose there is no reason to be concerned.  I will not be making any
more official releases of Csound for OS 9.  I may continue to tinker with
that port until Csound 6 is released, but it is no longer a priority.

Anthony


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