OK, now we agree 95%.

I agree that some maintenance would need to be done on platform-specific versions of Csound, even if their developers became Csound 5 developers.

But as for platform-specific advantages, there is no reason for them to exist. Platform-specific advantages can be incorporated into Csound 5 using loadable modules or plugins. As far as I know, there is no platform-specific advantage that could NOT so be incorporated.

-----Original Message-----
From: Art Hunkins 
Sent: Mar 11, 2005 12:44 PM
To: csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] New file release for Csound 5 and CsoundVST on Windows

Mike, I'm 90% with you on this.

In two points I differ:

1) Specialized versions like CsoundAV still need attention and maintenance
(by one developer each!), as they need some updating and occasional
bug-swatting. (Gab is involved in both these areas currently.) This is the
*now*.

2) Specialized versions will IMO always enjoy some advantage over
cross-platform versions, particularly where real-time, graphics, MIDI are
involved. Different platforms handle these areas differently, as you know
far better than I.

So I think that specialized versions may *always* fill particular needs, and
be more appropriate to particular conditions (such as more "user-friendly"
on a given platform, better for real-time in Windows, etc.) "One size fits
all" may only work in certain general respects.

Art Hunkins
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Gogins" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] New file release for Csound 5 and CsoundVST on Windows


> Of course I am not advocating that you cease using tools that work for
you.
>
> But I am advocating that Gabriel Maldonado, Matt Ingalls, and others who
have developed these tools stop developing their personal variants of Csound
and begin contributing to Csound 5.
>
> (I will not be angry with them or think they are fools if they don't do
this, because I don't take these things personally.)
>
> When I came on board Csound 5, I speeded up its development considerably.
When Istvan Varga became a Csound 5 developer, the pace of development
accelerated even more.  If Gabriel and Matt become Csound 5 developers, the
pace of development should increase yet more. And our efforts will no longer
be duplicated, leading to an increase in the introduction of new features
and the elimination of more bugs.
>
> After all, I used to maintain my own version of Csound.  Stopping doing
that was one of the smartest things I have ever done. I still have to fix a
few things in CsoundVST that get broken by other Csound 5 developers, but
the number of things I have to fix and the duplication of effort that I must
make has been cut to a fraction of what it was. The time that I have left, I
have been using either to create new features (such as the ID tags options,
re-introducing Maurizio Puxeddu's Python opcodes, porting the Loris opcodes,
helping Andres Cabrera with the VST wrapper opcodes, working with Steven Yi
on the Fluidsynth opcodes), improving the manual, or to.... compose! Wow!
>
> If this happens, then of course you can continue to use CsoundAV or
whatever until Csound 5 is in a state that satisfies you. None of this
activity can harm you or your work in any way. Adding to Csound 5 does not
subtract from CsoundAV or MacCsound.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Art Hunkins 
> Sent: Mar 11, 2005 11:38 AM
> To: csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] New file release for Csound 5 and CsoundVST on
Windows
>
> True - though you developers individually will need to make that decision.
> And I'll have to make my own decisions about the platforms I choose and
how
> I relate to the cross-platform issue.
>
> There is certainly *much* to be said for platform-specific versions of
> Csound, particularly for real-time work. Examples: 1) it will be a long
time
> before realtime audio output on Csound5 approaches the simplicity,
> dependability and low latency, etc. of CsoundAV; 2) as Istvan admits
below,
> it's a lot easier to come up with defaults that suit Windows realtime,
than
> ones that suit all platforms (thus requiring the user to have to "fool"
with
> what should be default settings. I'm *still* waiting for the -B flag
> requirement to become optional in CS5 - and, yes, it's very much a hassle
> for me. We need defaults!)
>
> I'll personally address AV issues directly with Gab Maldonado (as I am
> currently), and CS5 issues generally with the developer group (as here).
The
> AV world is *now*; CS5 is more and more the future.
>
> You mention "by the end of the year." I *hope* to be composing by then,
but
> I'm actually composing (and living) right now - and I must work with the
> tools I've got and when I have the (God-given) time to use them.
>
> So, God bless Gab Maldonado and CsoundAV - and for that matter, Matt
Ingalls
> and MacCsound. (There are others who feel just as dedicated to these
> specialized programs as I do.) Their efforts - *continuing* efforts - make
> it possible for many of us *actually to compose with Csound*.
>
> Of course, God bless you other developers too. You are a very important
part
> of our future. Hopefully, CS5 will reach the same level of performance and
> user-friendliness for Windows and Mac users that CsoundAV and MacCsound
have
> enjoyed for some time now.
>
> Art Hunkins
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Gogins" 
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 9:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] New file release for Csound 5 and CsoundVST on
Windows
>
>
> > Not only that, if but the developers of various versions pooled their
> efforts on csound 5, we would have a superior version that works on all
> platforms before the end of this year. And there would not be anything
else
> in computer music remotely as powerful.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Istvan Varga 
> > Sent: Mar 11, 2005 7:03 AM
> > To: csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] New file release for Csound 5 and CsoundVST on
> Windows
> >
> > Art Hunkins wrote:
> >
> > > in CsoundAV (in contrast to all others) I *never* have to fool
> >  > with buffer settings.
> >
> > CsoundAV does not, and will probably never run on anything other
> > than Windows, making it much easier to find default buffer settings.
> >
> > > In CS5 Windows, the buffer issue is quite unclear and changing
> >
> > More details on this ?
> >
> >  > plus seems to be different on different platforms.
> >
> > Well, but Csound5 at least actually runs on different platforms.
> > And things like buffer settings are highly machine dependent.
> >
> > > Also, since only ASIO is implemented, regular soundcard users have to
> >  > install and configure ASIO4ALL.
> >
> > PortAudio is not limited to ASIO, it also supports DirectSound and MME
> > (as well as WDM but that is experimental). You may want to ask Michael
> > Gogins to include a PortAudio module that is compiled to use DirectSound
> > in the next Windows file release.
> >
> > > I'll also add that Gab Maldonado has been active in maintaining and
> > > debugging CsoundAV, and personally responsive to my particular needs
> (i.e.,
> > > realtime performance).
> >
> > Now if only all the efforts on maintaining the various platform specific
> > Csound variants derived from old versions of Csound4 would be spent on
> > Csound5, we would eventually get one good version instead of several
> > broken ones, all with their own set of bugs that have been fixed in
> others.
> > And the fact is that in recent years CsoundAV was only actively
developed
> > in the areas of real time audio, OpenGL, and FLTK, while core language
> > support is still only 4.19.
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
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> > Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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It also seems to me that reasonable defaults (eg. for buffer sizes) 
could be compiled into Cs5 based on the target platform for the build.

- Dave


Michael Gogins wrote:
> OK, now we agree 95%.
> 
> I agree that some maintenance would need to be done on platform-specific versions of Csound, even if their developers became Csound 5 developers.
> 
> But as for platform-specific advantages, there is no reason for them to exist. Platform-specific advantages can be incorporated into Csound 5 using loadable modules or plugins. As far as I know, there is no platform-specific advantage that could NOT so be incorporated.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Art Hunkins 
> Sent: Mar 11, 2005 12:44 PM
> To: csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] New file release for Csound 5 and CsoundVST on Windows
> 
> Mike, I'm 90% with you on this.
> 
> In two points I differ:
> 
> 1) Specialized versions like CsoundAV still need attention and maintenance
> (by one developer each!), as they need some updating and occasional
> bug-swatting. (Gab is involved in both these areas currently.) This is the
> *now*.
> 
> 2) Specialized versions will IMO always enjoy some advantage over
> cross-platform versions, particularly where real-time, graphics, MIDI are
> involved. Different platforms handle these areas differently, as you know
> far better than I.
> 
> So I think that specialized versions may *always* fill particular needs, and
> be more appropriate to particular conditions (such as more "user-friendly"
> on a given platform, better for real-time in Windows, etc.) "One size fits
> all" may only work in certain general respects.
> 
> Art Hunkins
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Gogins" 
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 11:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] New file release for Csound 5 and CsoundVST on Windows
> 
> 
> 
>>Of course I am not advocating that you cease using tools that work for
> 
> you.
> 
>>But I am advocating that Gabriel Maldonado, Matt Ingalls, and others who
> 
> have developed these tools stop developing their personal variants of Csound
> and begin contributing to Csound 5.
> 
>>(I will not be angry with them or think they are fools if they don't do
> 
> this, because I don't take these things personally.)
> 
>>When I came on board Csound 5, I speeded up its development considerably.
> 
> When Istvan Varga became a Csound 5 developer, the pace of development
> accelerated even more.  If Gabriel and Matt become Csound 5 developers, the
> pace of development should increase yet more. And our efforts will no longer
> be duplicated, leading to an increase in the introduction of new features
> and the elimination of more bugs.
> 
>>After all, I used to maintain my own version of Csound.  Stopping doing
> 
> that was one of the smartest things I have ever done. I still have to fix a
> few things in CsoundVST that get broken by other Csound 5 developers, but
> the number of things I have to fix and the duplication of effort that I must
> make has been cut to a fraction of what it was. The time that I have left, I
> have been using either to create new features (such as the ID tags options,
> re-introducing Maurizio Puxeddu's Python opcodes, porting the Loris opcodes,
> helping Andres Cabrera with the VST wrapper opcodes, working with Steven Yi
> on the Fluidsynth opcodes), improving the manual, or to.... compose! Wow!
> 
>>If this happens, then of course you can continue to use CsoundAV or
> 
> whatever until Csound 5 is in a state that satisfies you. None of this
> activity can harm you or your work in any way. Adding to Csound 5 does not
> subtract from CsoundAV or MacCsound.
> 
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Art Hunkins 
>>Sent: Mar 11, 2005 11:38 AM
>>To: csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] New file release for Csound 5 and CsoundVST on
> 
> Windows
> 
>>True - though you developers individually will need to make that decision.
>>And I'll have to make my own decisions about the platforms I choose and
> 
> how
> 
>>I relate to the cross-platform issue.
>>
>>There is certainly *much* to be said for platform-specific versions of
>>Csound, particularly for real-time work. Examples: 1) it will be a long
> 
> time
> 
>>before realtime audio output on Csound5 approaches the simplicity,
>>dependability and low latency, etc. of CsoundAV; 2) as Istvan admits
> 
> below,
> 
>>it's a lot easier to come up with defaults that suit Windows realtime,
> 
> than
> 
>>ones that suit all platforms (thus requiring the user to have to "fool"
> 
> with
> 
>>what should be default settings. I'm *still* waiting for the -B flag
>>requirement to become optional in CS5 - and, yes, it's very much a hassle
>>for me. We need defaults!)
>>
>>I'll personally address AV issues directly with Gab Maldonado (as I am
>>currently), and CS5 issues generally with the developer group (as here).
> 
> The
> 
>>AV world is *now*; CS5 is more and more the future.
>>
>>You mention "by the end of the year." I *hope* to be composing by then,
> 
> but
> 
>>I'm actually composing (and living) right now - and I must work with the
>>tools I've got and when I have the (God-given) time to use them.
>>
>>So, God bless Gab Maldonado and CsoundAV - and for that matter, Matt
> 
> Ingalls
> 
>>and MacCsound. (There are others who feel just as dedicated to these
>>specialized programs as I do.) Their efforts - *continuing* efforts - make
>>it possible for many of us *actually to compose with Csound*.
>>
>>Of course, God bless you other developers too. You are a very important
> 
> part
> 
>>of our future. Hopefully, CS5 will reach the same level of performance and
>>user-friendliness for Windows and Mac users that CsoundAV and MacCsound
> 
> have
> 
>>enjoyed for some time now.
>>
>>Art Hunkins
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Michael Gogins" 
>>To: 
>>Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 9:34 AM
>>Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] New file release for Csound 5 and CsoundVST on
> 
> Windows
> 
>>
>>>Not only that, if but the developers of various versions pooled their
>>
>>efforts on csound 5, we would have a superior version that works on all
>>platforms before the end of this year. And there would not be anything
> 
> else
> 
>>in computer music remotely as powerful.
>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Istvan Varga 
>>>Sent: Mar 11, 2005 7:03 AM
>>>To: csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] New file release for Csound 5 and CsoundVST on
>>
>>Windows
>>
>>>Art Hunkins wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>in CsoundAV (in contrast to all others) I *never* have to fool
>>>
>>> > with buffer settings.
>>>
>>>CsoundAV does not, and will probably never run on anything other
>>>than Windows, making it much easier to find default buffer settings.
>>>
>>>
>>>>In CS5 Windows, the buffer issue is quite unclear and changing
>>>
>>>More details on this ?
>>>
>>> > plus seems to be different on different platforms.
>>>
>>>Well, but Csound5 at least actually runs on different platforms.
>>>And things like buffer settings are highly machine dependent.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Also, since only ASIO is implemented, regular soundcard users have to
>>>
>>> > install and configure ASIO4ALL.
>>>
>>>PortAudio is not limited to ASIO, it also supports DirectSound and MME
>>>(as well as WDM but that is experimental). You may want to ask Michael
>>>Gogins to include a PortAudio module that is compiled to use DirectSound
>>>in the next Windows file release.
>>>
>>>
>>>>I'll also add that Gab Maldonado has been active in maintaining and
>>>>debugging CsoundAV, and personally responsive to my particular needs
>>
>>(i.e.,
>>
>>>>realtime performance).
>>>
>>>Now if only all the efforts on maintaining the various platform specific
>>>Csound variants derived from old versions of Csound4 would be spent on
>>>Csound5, we would eventually get one good version instead of several
>>>broken ones, all with their own set of bugs that have been fixed in
>>
>>others.
>>
>>>And the fact is that in recent years CsoundAV was only actively
> 
> developed
> 
>>>in the areas of real time audio, OpenGL, and FLTK, while core language
>>>support is still only 4.19.
>>>
>>>
>>>-------------------------------------------------------
>>>SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide
>>>Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users.
>>>Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now.
>>>http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Csound-devel mailing list
>>>Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-------------------------------------------------------
>>>SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide
>>>Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users.
>>>Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now.
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>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>
>>
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------
>>SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 



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