Regarding building Linux and where this info should be stored: "whatever you
say." I'm just an outside observer and wouldn't even conceive of trying to
build *anything*. (I guess this is why I stay away from Linux, and for pure
self-preservation must limit my exposure to pure technology.)

I just keep reading all the mail from users (new ones, especially) trying
desparately to "roll their own" in Linux, and having *all kinds* of trouble.
My heart goes out to them.

Bottom line: whatever will help these poor long-suffering souls, let's *do*
it. Not *all* their suffering is necessary - or (IMO) at least it shouldn't
be.

Art Hunkins

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Gogins" 
To: "Art Hunkins" ; "Developer discussions"

Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] alsa & dmix on OLPC -- help needed.


> It is better to have all information that anyone really needs to build,
use, or develop Csound in one location.
>
> Duplicating some of this information between a Wiki and a manual is bound
to cause confusion as one of them inevitably becomes out of date with
respect to the other. I have seen this at work and in many other projects.
>
> Having some information in a Wiki and other information in a manual is
less confusing, but still not as useful as having everything necessary in
one manual.
>
> I don't think the Csound manual is very out of date at all, on the
contrary it has been receiving useful and timely updates from many people;
and it will soon contain reasonably complete and up to date Linux build
instructions.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Art Hunkins 
> >Sent: Jan 18, 2007 11:16 AM
> >To: Developer discussions 
> >Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] alsa & dmix on OLPC -- help needed.
> >
> >Jonathan makes a lot of sense.
> >
> >Art Hunkins
> >
> >----- Original Message ----- 
> >From: "Jonathan Murphy" 
> >To: "Developer discussions" 
> >Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 8:40 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] alsa & dmix on OLPC -- help needed.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Hi Steven,
> >>
> >> Thanks for your patience and forbearance.
> >>
> >> > BTW: Should I write something about this in the manual?
> >>
> >> I've been thinking about this kind of thing a lot lately. When I first
> >> started to use Csound, sometime late 2005, there was little online
> >> information regarding installation of Csound5 on Linux. There was a
> >> great article by Dave Phillips, but the focus was primarily on new
> >> features, rather than on how to get things working. If nothing else,
I'm
> >> stubborn, so I googled for a week or so and managed to compile from
> >> CVS, and promptly wrote a brief howto on the Csound5 forums page. For
> >> a while, it was quite popular, and people wrote in regarding
> >> problems/complications. I was watching the post, and so was Istvan, so
> >> by and large readers got informed (Istvan) and simple (self)
> >> explanations. The major problem was that it was geared towards
> >> then current versions of software such as alsa, jack, python,
> >> fluidsynth, and also particular distributions (at the time I was using
> >> Ubuntu, Istvan was using Planet CCRMA). Eventually it disappeared
> >> (which is good). The thing is, although I no longer use Ubuntu, nor
> >> (for that matter) any of the mainstream Linux distributions, I still
> >> use csound5 CVS, and install it in much the same manner described, and
> >> the bare bones of the installation method still apply. The core of
> >> that experience could have been retained, and would still prove useful
> >> to others.
> >>
> >> It seems to me that the Canonical Csound Reference Manual should deal
> >> primarily with the aspects of Csound that change relatively rarely. It
> >> should be as Canonical as possible. Installation and configuration
> >> instructions for the various platforms will change rapidly, and are
> >> only ever going to be a major PITA for developers in general and
> >> Andres in particular, if they are to be constantly updated in the
> >> manual. Every couple of days someone is going to write to the user
> >> list saying "I followed the instructions to the letter but blah isn't
> >> working." The rate of change of the manual is not such that it can
> >> keep pace with the change in development of every strand of every
> >> platform that Csound can be compiled upon, and it should not be
> >> expected to be able to do so.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, the wiki can, and is in fact specifically designed
> >> to be able to do this sort of thing. If someone finds that information
> >> is outdated, they can simply change it, or add a note to the effect
> >> that "I tried this but foobar.deb is no longer available. I had to do
> >> this to get things working." If a developer or experienced Csounder
> >> was the original author of the page in question, this would improve
> >> things hundredfold. They could subscribe to the page (all you need to
> >> do is click on a button), then when any changes to the page are made,
> >> they will be notified via email, and they can check the veracity of
> >> the information, add notes as required and so on, all this without the
> >> requirement of any party having CVS write access. The wiki has the
> >> potential to harness all of the energy of all of the people who use
> >> Csound, not just the developers, who (I imagine) are already
> >> overextended by their jobs, musical output, relationships and so
> >> forth. If it reaches a certain critical mass, then it will become
> >> almost self-maintaining. As an example of this possibility, although
> >> not a Csound developer, nor associated with the OLPC project, I have
> >> just added a link to the Csound page on the OLPC Wiki on the
> >> CsoundWiki.
> >>
> >>
>
>http://tobiah.org/csoundwiki/ExternalLinks#head-b232301da10556a7340c7947056
28f4139a59aec
> >>
> >> Anyone with an interest in these projects could have done so, provided
> >> that they have internet access and a browser. On the other hand, if
> >> someone had wanted to add similar information to the manual (from the
> >> above it should be apparent that I don't think it would necessarily be
> >> a good idea), they would have either had to have had CVS write access,
> >> or written persuasively to one of the lists. The wiki is a fluid
> >> informatic zone, with enormous potential. The manual is by comparison
> >> static, but this is precisely the task of a manual, except when new
> >> circumstances arise, or it is generally recognised that an
> >> improvement be made.
> >>
> >> When Mike posted to the user list saying that he was going to write up
> >> his experiences and suggestions regarding compiling Csound on Ubuntu,
> >> and add them to the manual, my feelings were mixed, as follows:
> >>
> >> 1. Fantastic. I admire, respect, and seek to emulate the dedication
> >>    of (all) developers, (but) particularly when they take the time to
> >>    provide documentation for newcomers.
> >>
> >> 2. That's exactly what I did a year and a half ago, and I found that
> >>    it needed to be updated every couple of weeks, as the distribution
> >>    packages changed. I tried to do this, but found that other tasks
> >>    were more pressing, and that I was unable to do so.
> >>
> >> 3. I really hope that he puts it up on the wiki instead.
> >>
> >> The wiki really needs the support of Csound developers. The wiki
> >> format is particularly good for some kinds of information, such as
> >> that which you have provided regarding dmix. I know that you will do
> >> as you think best, and that is one of the reasons that you have my
> >> utmost respect. The foregoing is merely my opinion regarding desirable
> >> methods for propagating differing types of information.
> >>
> >> Sincerely,
> >> Jonathan.
> >>
>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
> >> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share
> >your
> >> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
> >>
http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Csound-devel mailing list
> >> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
> >
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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your
> >opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
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> >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>
>
>


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Hi Art,
Given the wide varieties of Linux, and configurations, it's actually
easier right now for users to build csound5 themselves, since we don't
have the resources to maintain distribution specific packages, and
csound5 is not yet part of most distributions. I'm also ambivalent about
including that kind of instructions in the manual. I'm sure they will be
obsolete soon, but it's also good that they are in the manual where they
are easily found. I would say that they should be there, and when they
are no longer useuful, they should be updated or removed.

Cheers,
Andrés

Art Hunkins wrote:
> Regarding building Linux and where this info should be stored: "whatever you
> say." I'm just an outside observer and wouldn't even conceive of trying to
> build *anything*. (I guess this is why I stay away from Linux, and for pure
> self-preservation must limit my exposure to pure technology.)
>
> I just keep reading all the mail from users (new ones, especially) trying
> desparately to "roll their own" in Linux, and having *all kinds* of trouble.
> My heart goes out to them.
>
> Bottom line: whatever will help these poor long-suffering souls, let's *do*
> it. Not *all* their suffering is necessary - or (IMO) at least it shouldn't
> be.
>
> Art Hunkins
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael Gogins" 
> To: "Art Hunkins" ; "Developer discussions"
> 
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] alsa & dmix on OLPC -- help needed.
>
>
>   
>> It is better to have all information that anyone really needs to build,
>>     
> use, or develop Csound in one location.
>   
>> Duplicating some of this information between a Wiki and a manual is bound
>>     
> to cause confusion as one of them inevitably becomes out of date with
> respect to the other. I have seen this at work and in many other projects.
>   
>> Having some information in a Wiki and other information in a manual is
>>     
> less confusing, but still not as useful as having everything necessary in
> one manual.
>   
>> I don't think the Csound manual is very out of date at all, on the
>>     
> contrary it has been receiving useful and timely updates from many people;
> and it will soon contain reasonably complete and up to date Linux build
> instructions.
>   
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>     
>>> From: Art Hunkins 
>>> Sent: Jan 18, 2007 11:16 AM
>>> To: Developer discussions 
>>> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] alsa & dmix on OLPC -- help needed.
>>>
>>> Jonathan makes a lot of sense.
>>>
>>> Art Hunkins
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Jonathan Murphy" 
>>> To: "Developer discussions" 
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 8:40 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] alsa & dmix on OLPC -- help needed.
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Hi Steven,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your patience and forbearance.
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> BTW: Should I write something about this in the manual?
>>>>>           
>>>> I've been thinking about this kind of thing a lot lately. When I first
>>>> started to use Csound, sometime late 2005, there was little online
>>>> information regarding installation of Csound5 on Linux. There was a
>>>> great article by Dave Phillips, but the focus was primarily on new
>>>> features, rather than on how to get things working. If nothing else,
>>>>         
> I'm
>   
>>>> stubborn, so I googled for a week or so and managed to compile from
>>>> CVS, and promptly wrote a brief howto on the Csound5 forums page. For
>>>> a while, it was quite popular, and people wrote in regarding
>>>> problems/complications. I was watching the post, and so was Istvan, so
>>>> by and large readers got informed (Istvan) and simple (self)
>>>> explanations. The major problem was that it was geared towards
>>>> then current versions of software such as alsa, jack, python,
>>>> fluidsynth, and also particular distributions (at the time I was using
>>>> Ubuntu, Istvan was using Planet CCRMA). Eventually it disappeared
>>>> (which is good). The thing is, although I no longer use Ubuntu, nor
>>>> (for that matter) any of the mainstream Linux distributions, I still
>>>> use csound5 CVS, and install it in much the same manner described, and
>>>> the bare bones of the installation method still apply. The core of
>>>> that experience could have been retained, and would still prove useful
>>>> to others.
>>>>
>>>> It seems to me that the Canonical Csound Reference Manual should deal
>>>> primarily with the aspects of Csound that change relatively rarely. It
>>>> should be as Canonical as possible. Installation and configuration
>>>> instructions for the various platforms will change rapidly, and are
>>>> only ever going to be a major PITA for developers in general and
>>>> Andres in particular, if they are to be constantly updated in the
>>>> manual. Every couple of days someone is going to write to the user
>>>> list saying "I followed the instructions to the letter but blah isn't
>>>> working." The rate of change of the manual is not such that it can
>>>> keep pace with the change in development of every strand of every
>>>> platform that Csound can be compiled upon, and it should not be
>>>> expected to be able to do so.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, the wiki can, and is in fact specifically designed
>>>> to be able to do this sort of thing. If someone finds that information
>>>> is outdated, they can simply change it, or add a note to the effect
>>>> that "I tried this but foobar.deb is no longer available. I had to do
>>>> this to get things working." If a developer or experienced Csounder
>>>> was the original author of the page in question, this would improve
>>>> things hundredfold. They could subscribe to the page (all you need to
>>>> do is click on a button), then when any changes to the page are made,
>>>> they will be notified via email, and they can check the veracity of
>>>> the information, add notes as required and so on, all this without the
>>>> requirement of any party having CVS write access. The wiki has the
>>>> potential to harness all of the energy of all of the people who use
>>>> Csound, not just the developers, who (I imagine) are already
>>>> overextended by their jobs, musical output, relationships and so
>>>> forth. If it reaches a certain critical mass, then it will become
>>>> almost self-maintaining. As an example of this possibility, although
>>>> not a Csound developer, nor associated with the OLPC project, I have
>>>> just added a link to the Csound page on the OLPC Wiki on the
>>>> CsoundWiki.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         
>> http://tobiah.org/csoundwiki/ExternalLinks#head-b232301da10556a7340c7947056
>>     
> 28f4139a59aec
>   
>>>> Anyone with an interest in these projects could have done so, provided
>>>> that they have internet access and a browser. On the other hand, if
>>>> someone had wanted to add similar information to the manual (from the
>>>> above it should be apparent that I don't think it would necessarily be
>>>> a good idea), they would have either had to have had CVS write access,
>>>> or written persuasively to one of the lists. The wiki is a fluid
>>>> informatic zone, with enormous potential. The manual is by comparison
>>>> static, but this is precisely the task of a manual, except when new
>>>> circumstances arise, or it is generally recognised that an
>>>> improvement be made.
>>>>
>>>> When Mike posted to the user list saying that he was going to write up
>>>> his experiences and suggestions regarding compiling Csound on Ubuntu,
>>>> and add them to the manual, my feelings were mixed, as follows:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Fantastic. I admire, respect, and seek to emulate the dedication
>>>>    of (all) developers, (but) particularly when they take the time to
>>>>    provide documentation for newcomers.
>>>>
>>>> 2. That's exactly what I did a year and a half ago, and I found that
>>>>    it needed to be updated every couple of weeks, as the distribution
>>>>    packages changed. I tried to do this, but found that other tasks
>>>>    were more pressing, and that I was unable to do so.
>>>>
>>>> 3. I really hope that he puts it up on the wiki instead.
>>>>
>>>> The wiki really needs the support of Csound developers. The wiki
>>>> format is particularly good for some kinds of information, such as
>>>> that which you have provided regarding dmix. I know that you will do
>>>> as you think best, and that is one of the reasons that you have my
>>>> utmost respect. The foregoing is merely my opinion regarding desirable
>>>> methods for propagating differing types of information.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> Jonathan.
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>       
>>>> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
>>>> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share
>>>>         
>>> your
>>>       
>>>> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
>>>>
>>>>         
> http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
>   
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Csound-devel mailing list
>>>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>>>         
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
>>> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share
>>>       
> your
>   
>>> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
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>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Csound-devel mailing list
>>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>>       
>>
>>     
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>
>   


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